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Around the NHL: Congrats Hawks on winning the STANLEY CUP

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06-25-2013, 06:27 PM
  #901
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Originally Posted by OverTheCap View Post
Last summer, Tortorella wanted more depth on offense, and he wanted to shore up the blueline. Neither of those things happened, and we ended up having less depth than we did the season before.



http://snyrangersblog.com/coachesgm/...mike-francesa/
Except we added Nash to Gaborik and Richards as well as a solid supporting cast, no one knew Gaborik, Richards, and to a lesser extent Kreider would be as bad as they were.

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06-25-2013, 06:28 PM
  #902
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I don't know... allow them to play it? When the Rangers WEREN'T constantly collapsing or playing ultra-safe-dump-it-in hockey, they excelled on the forecheck and wearing out the opposition down low. Look at the Pack Line from 2010-11. Dubinsky-Anisimov-Callahan would run around the offensive zone with the puck for up to a minute at a time. Hags-Richards-Gaborik showed glimpses of this, as well.
Okay, blame Sather then for dismantling the Pack line players (Anisimov, Dubinsky), who elevated the play of Callahan. He traded them for a 1-dimensional scorer.

The Rangers collapse and play ultra safe because their group of forwards are terrible.

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Currently constructed, with Nash, Brassard, Zuccarello, Hagelin, Callahan (guys who are already good possession players. Yes, Callahan excels along the boards more than open ice but it's still possession) and cultivating that attitude and style amongst the other forwards, they certainly CAN play a puck possession game. And they have to. This is three straight years now of being run down come playoff time and then allowing the other team unfettered and unchallenged chance after chance from up high.
False. Brassard, Callahan and Nash aren't good puck possession players in terms of advanced stats. You have Zuccarello, Stepan and Hagelin, who are decent at it. The rest of the roster is pretty much terrible at it.

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No more. Time to be aggressive, get the puck, transition to offense, and use their talent to get some pucks in the net. 3-2, 2-1, and shootout wins can get you into the playoffs, NOT the Final.
So what you're telling me is that you expect guys like Hagelin, Callahan and Brassard to play a run and gun type system and somehow compete against the top groups of top tier teams like Pittsburgh with Malkin, Neal, Kunitz or Boston with Bergeron, Seguin and Marchand? That pretty much guarantees a loss in terms of match-ups. I think you may be deluded into thinking this core group of forwards are amongst the best in the NHL.

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06-25-2013, 06:36 PM
  #903
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Originally Posted by silverfish View Post
Torts was begging for more offense at the end of the 2012 playoffs. Sather got it for him. Nothing changed.
Torts wanted more offensive depth. Glen Sather, the teflon GM, traded depth away. Quite the opposite to Torts' request.

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The true fall of the team this past year was Tortorella expecting square pegs to fit into round holes. Sather got him a team with more skill, and Torts wanted them to play the way the 11-12 team did. It was a terrible decision on the coaches part. I don't see how the team at the start of the '13 season on paper was a team destined to be made into a 6-goalie team.
How was this team more skilled, please do tell me. They had Taylor Pyatt, Derek Dorsett and Brian Boyle playing as a regular unit on the 3rd line. Sure in terms of top end talent, they got Nash, whoopity-doo. Nash is not the type of player you destroy the team's bottom 6 depth for and Glen was deluded into thinking he would pass along fine without depth. Overall, the team lost a ton of talent and heart last offseason.

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Loaded with speed, decent enough depth, and a plethora of two-way defensemen. Block shots, play below the goal line, or get traded/benched.

This year's team could have been more. It still frustrates me.
Loaded with speed, not enough brains. Speed, physicality and size are rather useless if you can't read plays and generate offense. Torts had to retort to shot blocking system because his players weren't smart enough to create plays in the offensive zone.

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06-25-2013, 06:53 PM
  #904
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Fenwick Close. Such a good stat that the Devils are right up there, we are above the Pens, and the Caps are almost at the bottom. That stat is all over the place. Oof.

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06-25-2013, 06:58 PM
  #905
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Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
Fenwick Close. Such a good stat that the Devils are right up there, we are above the Pens, and the Caps are almost at the bottom. That stat is all over the place. Oof.
Well, that one is accurate. Caps are a pretty bad ES team, they seriously relied on their PP (which was quite possibly one of the best ever this past season).

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06-25-2013, 07:02 PM
  #906
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Originally Posted by BB v2 0 View Post
Well, that one is accurate. Caps are a pretty bad ES team, they seriously relied on their PP (which was quite possibly one of the best ever this past season).
Yet I don't think the stat has much ado about the Hawks winning the Cup or not. That was my main point. Stat comes off as relatively meaningless.

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06-25-2013, 07:03 PM
  #907
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Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
Yet I don't think the stat has much ado about the Hawks winning the Cup or not. That was my main point. Stat comes off as relatively meaningless.
Agree with that. Those numbers are very possession based, and frankly, possession isn't the end-all-be-all of hockey. i could match those teams with stats by watching them. Devils are a great puck possession team, but they can't finish and are weak defensively.

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06-25-2013, 07:05 PM
  #908
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Originally Posted by BB v2 0 View Post
Agree with that. Those numbers are very possession based, and frankly, possession isn't the end-all-be-all of hockey. i could match those teams with stats by watching them. Devils are a great puck possession team, but they can't finish and are weak defensively.
FWIW, I have much less of a problem with advanced stats as team stats. So I don't necessarily hate Fenbro and **** like that. But the insinuation of the author of that CBS Hockey post that this stat is somehow "the important one" makes me giggle a bit.

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06-25-2013, 07:06 PM
  #909
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Originally Posted by BB v2 0 View Post
Agree with that. Those numbers are very possession based, and frankly, possession isn't the end-all-be-all of hockey. i could match those teams with stats by watching them. Devils are a great puck possession team, but they can't finish and are weak defensively.
It's still pretty damn important.

Fenwick-close has been shown to be a better predictor of future winning percentage than past winning percentage

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06-25-2013, 07:07 PM
  #910
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Does Fenwick basically just deal with puck possession?

My favorite "advanced stat" last year was Sean Avery lead the league in goals per 60 minutes played for LW minimum 10 games played.

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06-25-2013, 07:08 PM
  #911
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Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
FWIW, I have much less of a problem with advanced stats as team stats. So I don't necessarily hate Fenbro and **** like that.
Yeah, I think it's hard to isolate the individual player's contribution to puck possession stats.

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06-25-2013, 07:08 PM
  #912
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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
It's still pretty damn important.

Fenwick-close has been shown to be a better predictor of future winning percentage than past winning percentage
Obviously. But the Devils proved that it's not *THE* most important

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06-25-2013, 07:13 PM
  #913
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Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
Fenwick Close. Such a good stat that the Devils are right up there, we are above the Pens, and the Caps are almost at the bottom. That stat is all over the place. Oof.
That tells me the Devils were very unlucky this year and over an 82 GP season, they likely improve. Of course, there are anomalies with every statistics out there, but it's been highlighted that top fenclose. teams are usually the ones to win the cup. In reality, the Devils probably don't deserve the 9th pick as they are a top team with terrible shooting luck and special teams play (along with Fatso being a sieve). Fenclose doesn't account for Special Team's play, hence you see teams with lethal PPs/PKs like the Caps/Pens still being top regular season teams due to special teams play.

2013: Chicago (2nd in Fenclose)
2012: Los Angeles (4th in Fenclose)
2011: Boston (14th in Fenclose)
2010: Chicago (1st in Fenclose)
2009: Pittsburgh (14th in Fenclose)
2008: Detroit (1st in Fenclose)

Average the rankings out and approximately the top 6 teams are usually the ones to win the cup the past 6 seasons. Pittsburgh in 2009 While not a perfect stat, it tells a lot on the quality of a team and how they'll sustain play in the long haul. Non stat relating variables like injuries can obviously change that.

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06-25-2013, 07:14 PM
  #914
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Originally Posted by BB v2 0 View Post
Obviously. But the Devils proved that it's not *THE* most important
They didn't prove anything any more than Global Warming is disproved by a snowfall.

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06-25-2013, 07:16 PM
  #915
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Where do I find this Fenwick #s?

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06-25-2013, 07:16 PM
  #916
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What a hilarious way for Boston to lose. TD is electric, a minute away from game 7, and BAM.

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06-25-2013, 07:18 PM
  #917
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
That tells me the Devils were very unlucky this year and over an 82 GP season, they likely improve. Of course, there are anomalies with every statistics out there, but it's been highlighted that top fenclose. teams are usually the ones to win the cup. In reality, the Devils probably don't deserve the 9th pick as they are a top team with terrible shooting luck and special teams play (along with Fatso being a sieve). Fenclose doesn't account for Special Team's play, hence you see teams with lethal PPs/PKs like the Caps/Pens still being top regular season teams due to special teams play.

2013: Chicago (2nd in Fenclose)
2012: Los Angeles (4th in Fenclose)
2011: Boston (14th in Fenclose)
2010: Chicago (1st in Fenclose)
2009: Pittsburgh (14th in Fenclose)
2008: Detroit (1st in Fenclose)

Average the rankings out and approximately the top 6 teams are usually the ones to win the cup the past 6 seasons. Pittsburgh in 2009 While not a perfect stat, it tells a lot on the quality of a team and how they'll sustain play in the long haul. Non stat relating variables like injuries can obviously change that.
So it works all the time half the time. Or are the 14ths just outliers (rhetorical)?

I don't dispute that puck possession is important. But it's far from the most important stat. Just one of the cogs that makes a good machine.

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06-25-2013, 07:19 PM
  #918
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Originally Posted by BB v2 0 View Post
Where do I find this Fenwick #s?
http://behindthenet.ca/fenwick_2012....6&section=tied

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06-25-2013, 07:22 PM
  #919
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Rangers were 7th?

Guess we're really not that far away, eh Kersh?

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06-25-2013, 07:26 PM
  #920
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Originally Posted by BB v2 0 View Post
Rangers were 7th?

Guess we're really not that far away, eh Kersh?
/mindexplodes

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06-25-2013, 07:26 PM
  #921
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Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
So it works all the time half the time. Or are the 14ths just outliers (rhetorical)?
Like I said, there are a lot of uncounted variables that aren't related to the stat. For example, the Bruins posterized a depleted Canucks team that was missing their #1Dman and had their 2C, 3 and 4 D's playing with injuries that required offseason surgery. The Canucks had a top tier fenclose rating that year, but injuries killed their chances by the end of it.

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06-25-2013, 07:27 PM
  #922
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So you're suggesting that we somehow 'teach' Boyle, Callahan, Dorsett, Pyatt and co to develop vision for the game? Playing puck possession hockey is a trait where a player is naturally gifted with holding onto the puck and having vision for the game, it simply can't be taught.

The Rangers core consists of grenade handlers with the puck. It's like teaching Alex Ovechkin to emulate Pavel Datsyuk's defensive stature and style.

Torts was given a roster filled with physical shot blocking players, so it makes sense to emulate that playing style.
Did you follow the team when Torts came here?

We have no talent because Torts couldn't work with talent AND required players with size and perfect attitude.

There are 30 teams in this league. There is a cap. You need to be able to make due with less than perfect players. There are several great examples on all Cup winners lately. From FRANTISEK Kaberle being Caronlinas top D to Michael Ryder and so forth and so forth.

Torts gets credit for players blocking shots and gets a pass for players having no talent. Facts are that our rosters has been hand picked for Torts. If Torts liked Mitchell, he plays for us now. We got Powe because he can play Torts hockey. Asham. Pyatt. Fedetenko. Boyle. Prust. And so forth.

We rebuilt for 9 years to get where we was this season. Gabby, Nash and Richards. Hank. McD, Staal, Girardi, MDZ. Callahan, Stepan, Kreider. Alot of depth on paper.

What did Torts do with that?

Yes, ice a team that sucked in all areas of the game cept in net. De facto.

No offense.

No PP.

Constant major breakdowns on defense, besides spending a ton of time in our own end game in and game out.

Avg PK at best.

It was nothing short of a disgrace.

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06-25-2013, 07:27 PM
  #923
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The irony of the Hawks win is it came during a game where they were massively outplayed and blocked a ton of shots.

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06-25-2013, 07:31 PM
  #924
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Originally Posted by BB v2 0 View Post
Rangers were 7th?

Guess we're really not that far away, eh Kersh?
They are a good team that used board-play to create puck possession game and had a ton of players had cold years shooting wise (Gaborik in particular). A lot of that can equate to their top pairing and top line, which played marvelously for them (Hags-Stepan-Nash, Zuccarello, McDonagh-Girardi). I don't think they're far off, but I think they would be much closer with Anisimov and Dubinsky. I am not sure how Brassard will work as a full time 2C with his lackluster possession numbers in Columbus, but we'll see how it goes.

They are what they are, a 2nd round foddle team to a better team like Boston.

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06-25-2013, 07:32 PM
  #925
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Originally Posted by BB v2 0 View Post
Rangers were 7th?

Guess we're really not that far away, eh Kersh?
The Rangers were one of eight teams to advance past the first round.

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