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Trade Rumors and Proposals Thread XXIV: Season over. It begins...

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Old
06-25-2013, 09:01 PM
  #501
Mentallydull
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OilerFan4Life View Post
Weiss is essentially a clone of Gagner.....older and more banged up version of course.

He's small and "slow" for his lack of size, not very good defensively, has decent offensive instincts, probably a better shot.....probably better balance than Mr. snowpants too.

All that said, Weiss is going to get 5.5 million plus on the open market because frankly he's the top offensive C in an extremely weak class.
So he's a clone except that he's better?

All I'm saying is, if we're going to shell out 5+ million for a #2C, have him similar point production to Gagner WITH the faceoff/defensive skills, or pay a guy that has some good offensive ability.

He's pretty much Gagner in that he's the same size/weight and they aren't good defensively but he's better at putting up points, hitting, and faceoffs - 2 of those areas we need some major upgrades in.

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06-25-2013, 09:02 PM
  #502
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Originally Posted by Mentallydull View Post
Actually, EE AY HOCKEY CONNECT brought up an interesting name in the other thread.

What about going for Weiss? 20+ goal scorer, 55-60 points, decently physical, and great on the dot.

Just pay the money Gagner is asking for to Weiss, maybe have to add in a little more.
Ultimate grass is greener post.

From tearing down Gagner with a tone implying that he'll never improve, to wanting the 30 year old version of Gagner all within one page.

Weiss at 24/25 had never had a 50 point season, was terrible on the faceoffs, poor defensively, and easy to play against. It's amazing what those prime years of maturity between the ages of 25 and 30 will do for a player's ability to play hockey, not to mention his reputation.


Last edited by Tarus: 06-25-2013 at 09:08 PM.
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06-25-2013, 09:15 PM
  #503
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What would you guys give up for Letang? Pens fan just courius.

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06-25-2013, 09:16 PM
  #504
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Originally Posted by Beaudangles13 View Post
What would you guys give up for Letang? Pens fan just courius.
Horcoff, Khabibulin, Hemsky, a second rounder, maybe the rights to Teddy Peckman, and Eric Belanger. He'll be a great centre for Sidney Crosby.


....

(Petry, MPS, 2013 7th overall... or maybe Petry, 2013 and 2014 First.)

EDIT: Of course, conditional on us being allowed to sign a contract with him long-term.


Last edited by Mcnofool6110: 06-25-2013 at 09:38 PM.
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06-25-2013, 09:17 PM
  #505
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Originally Posted by Tarus View Post
Ultimate grass is greener post.

From tearing down Gagner with a tone implying that he'll never improve, to wanting the 30 year old version of Gagner all within one page.

Weiss at 24/25 had never had a 50 point season, was terrible on the faceoffs, poor defensively, and easy to play against. It's amazing what those prime years of maturity between the ages of 25 and 30 will do for a player's ability to play hockey, not to mention his reputation.
Gagner has shown next to no improvement in terms of point totals (about the same every year with the exception of this last one where he was on PACE to get more), defensively (even more bad defensive plays this year than years previous), and in faceoffs.

On the other hand, Weiss showed marked improvement in both his point totals and his faceoff percentages (by his 6th year in the league he was over .500 - something Gagner has yet to do).

Saying that this is just an older version of Gagner implies that Gagner's going to be this good despite the trends saying otherwise. It's also making the same argument of a draft pick over an established player (though not to that extent). On one hand, Gagner MIGHT get there and, on the other, Weiss is proven that he's there.

IF Gagner keeps up what he did last year then I'd have no issue paying him the 5+ but to this point he's still considered unproven.

One of these things is not like the other.

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06-25-2013, 09:29 PM
  #506
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Originally Posted by Beaudangles13 View Post
What would you guys give up for Letang? Pens fan just courius.
Gagner (can play wing), Petry, Paajarvi
OR
7th and Petry

I think anything more than that is an overpayment until we know he would sign long term.

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Old
06-25-2013, 09:43 PM
  #507
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I'd much prefer to build our back end through smaller trades, free agency and prospects. Letang is really not that great at stopping other teams forwards, that was evident in the playoffs. If we are going to give up those types of assets I would rather acquire a more rock solid defender rather than a 4th forward.

Keep in mind we have Belov and Klefbom coming in along with Petry and Schultz hopefully improving as they mature. There will be lots of great opportunities in the coming weeks to get great defence at a good price through free agency/buyouts/teams shedding salary.

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Old
06-25-2013, 09:46 PM
  #508
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Fact of the matter is we need to get harder to play against. Would you rather Yakupov and Hall play against Clutterbuck, or with him? Did you like having Marchment on the team, or playing against Marchment?
One of my favorites. Loved that guy. Different game back then though.

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Old
06-25-2013, 09:48 PM
  #509
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I have very high hopes for Belov. I think he can come in and be a top-4 defenceman instantly. That being said, relying on that to happen is a Tambellini style move.

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06-25-2013, 09:49 PM
  #510
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Originally Posted by Beaudangles13 View Post
What would you guys give up for Letang? Pens fan just courius.
Paajarvi, 7th overall and Musil.

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Old
06-25-2013, 09:49 PM
  #511
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Originally Posted by Mentallydull View Post
Gagner has shown next to no improvement in terms of point totals (about the same every year with the exception of this last one where he was on PACE to get more), defensively (even more bad defensive plays this year than years previous), and in faceoffs.

On the other hand, Weiss showed marked improvement in both his point totals and his faceoff percentages (by his 6th year in the league he was over .500 - something Gagner has yet to do).

Saying that this is just an older version of Gagner implies that Gagner's going to be this good despite the trends saying otherwise. It's also making the same argument of a draft pick over an established player (though not to that extent). On one hand, Gagner MIGHT get there and, on the other, Weiss is proven that he's there.

IF Gagner keeps up what he did last year then I'd have no issue paying him the 5+ but to this point he's still considered unproven.

One of these things is not like the other.
After seeing the lack of production in J Bo Jokinen and others since leaving the SE division. I would be extremely cautious when signing good players from a bad Florida team.

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Old
06-25-2013, 09:51 PM
  #512
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Originally Posted by Enlighten View Post
After seeing the lack of production in J Bo Jokinen and others since leaving the SE division. I would be extremely cautious when signing good players from a bad Florida team.
Hmm, that's a good point - hadn't even thought about that.

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Old
06-25-2013, 09:55 PM
  #513
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Originally Posted by Mentallydull View Post
Gagner has shown next to no improvement in terms of point totals (about the same every year with the exception of this last one where he was on PACE to get more), defensively (even more bad defensive plays this year than years previous), and in faceoffs.

On the other hand, Weiss showed marked improvement in both his point totals and his faceoff percentages (by his 6th year in the league he was over .500 - something Gagner has yet to do).

Saying that this is just an older version of Gagner implies that Gagner's going to be this good despite the trends saying otherwise. It's also making the same argument of a draft pick over an established player (though not to that extent). On one hand, Gagner MIGHT get there and, on the other, Weiss is proven that he's there.

IF Gagner keeps up what he did last year then I'd have no issue paying him the 5+ but to this point he's still considered unproven.

One of these things is not like the other.
2007-08 - 0.62 PPG
2008-09 - 0.54
2009-10 - 0.6
2010-11 - 0.62
2011-12 - 0.63
2012-13 - 0.79

demonstrably false, an increase literally every freaking year, outside of his rookie year where he saw very poor competition.... i get that some people hate gagner, fine, but you aren't entitled to your own facts

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06-25-2013, 10:07 PM
  #514
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Originally Posted by jadeddog View Post
2007-08 - 0.62 PPG
2008-09 - 0.54
2009-10 - 0.6
2010-11 - 0.62
2011-12 - 0.63
2012-13 - 0.79

demonstrably false, an increase literally every freaking year, outside of his rookie year where he saw very poor competition.... i get that some people hate gagner, fine, but you aren't entitled to your own facts
yep and had great ga/on pk good number of takeaways haters just repeat same crap from 3/4 seasons ago.

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06-25-2013, 10:07 PM
  #515
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I've never really understood some of the hate on here for Gagner. He's done nothing but play his heart out for the Oilers since being put into service at too young an age.
He never complains, always speaks to the media and gives his all every night. At 23 years old we are just seeing the beginning of his best years yet so many want to dump him for this, that, and anything in between. I'm all for signing him long term and look forward to his continued development

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06-25-2013, 10:10 PM
  #516
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Wasn't there suppose to be an Oilers press conference today? Did it happen and was there any big news?

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Old
06-25-2013, 10:13 PM
  #517
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Originally Posted by Mentallydull View Post
Gagner has shown next to no improvement in terms of point totals (about the same every year with the exception of this last one where he was on PACE to get more), defensively (even more bad defensive plays this year than years previous), and in faceoffs.

On the other hand, Weiss showed marked improvement in both his point totals and his faceoff percentages (by his 6th year in the league he was over .500 - something Gagner has yet to do).

Saying that this is just an older version of Gagner implies that Gagner's going to be this good despite the trends saying otherwise. It's also making the same argument of a draft pick over an established player (though not to that extent). On one hand, Gagner MIGHT get there and, on the other, Weiss is proven that he's there.

IF Gagner keeps up what he did last year then I'd have no issue paying him the 5+ but to this point he's still considered unproven.

One of these things is not like the other.
Players don't improve in a linear predictable pattern. Over the course of Gagner's career he has gotten better physically, offensively, defensively, and has even rounded into a bit of a leader.

Weiss also never managed 50% in the faceoff until 25, and didn't become a truly good faceoff player for a couple more years after that. If you go down the list of good faceoff players, the trend is clear - the majority are all 25+ years of age, and have spent years taking and practicing faceoffs. There is absolutely no reason Gagner can't improve to become adequate in that area over the next few years.

What trends exactly show Gagner isn't going to be good? Anecdotal evidence from you isn't exactly a compelling argument given your obvious bias. This isn't a draft pick who hasn't played a single game at the NHL level, he's better at 24 than Weiss was at age 24, both had played 5/6 years in the NHL up to that point. What exactly makes Gagner unique that the gains he's made leading up to his prime is a trend implying isn't getting better? Even worse, has no chance of being a better player than what he is now between the ages of 25 and 30?

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06-25-2013, 10:15 PM
  #518
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Originally Posted by jadeddog View Post
2007-08 - 0.62 PPG
2008-09 - 0.54
2009-10 - 0.6
2010-11 - 0.62
2011-12 - 0.63
2012-13 - 0.79

demonstrably false, an increase literally every freaking year, outside of his rookie year where he saw very poor competition.... i get that some people hate gagner, fine, but you aren't entitled to your own facts
Bwahahaha....walkin on pretty thin ice on this one..........every year is virtually identical except for his second year dip and this last season which was quite the improvement if all you look at are ppg. You have to realize that each .01ppg doesn't even amount to a point over the coarse of a season...I think you basically disproved yourself...

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06-25-2013, 10:34 PM
  #519
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The calm before the storm...

I'm thinking it will be quiet tomorrow and Thursday, maybe heat up a bit Friday with talks, a trade or two Saturday, then Sunday is the apocalypse.

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06-25-2013, 10:37 PM
  #520
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[QUOTE=KlimasLoveChild;68002315]Bwahahaha....walkin on pretty thin ice on this one..........every year is virtually identical except for his second year dip and this last season which was quite the improvement if all you look at are ppg. You have to realize that each .01ppg doesn't even amount to a point over the coarse of a season...I think you basically disproved yourself...[/]


I guess going from -17 to + 5 while slightly improving points is not improving.

Absolutely ridiculous. We get it, you don't like Gagner. To say he has gone stagnant at 23 is outright crazy.

He, like most other players will improve significantly physically, offensively and defensively.

I bet most of the people who think he is a "smurph" can't even skate and give up 40 pounds to Gagner.

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Old
06-25-2013, 10:38 PM
  #521
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There is a Gagner thread folks. Can you please take the debate there?

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06-25-2013, 10:46 PM
  #522
Craig MacAtaracts
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Originally Posted by Beaudangles13 View Post
What would you guys give up for Letang? Pens fan just courius.
I'm pretty sure Letang can't be extended until after the draft, otherwise I'd be willing to include the 7th overall.

Most I'd probably do is Petry + Paajarvi + Musil + 2014 1st for an extended Letang.

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Old
06-25-2013, 10:46 PM
  #523
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Likely because he'd be looking for first line money.
Well give him 1st line minutes. It's disturbing how much everyone is relying on a 20 year old to be our first line centre. Why not bring a Weiss or Ribeiro in on a 2-year deal so RNH can actually have a capable veteran to learn from.

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Old
06-25-2013, 10:49 PM
  #524
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Isn't Gagner the teams enforcer? I think he has more fights in the last 6 years then any Oiler.

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06-25-2013, 10:52 PM
  #525
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Isn't Gagner the teams enforcer? I think he has more fights in the last 6 years then any Oiler.
Smac, Peckham and Hordi had more, off the top of my head.

edit: Strudwick too.

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