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What to do with Mikhail Grabovski?

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Old
06-25-2013, 10:52 PM
  #151
glasses91
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You must not own a pair of skates.

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06-25-2013, 11:02 PM
  #152
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You must not own a pair of skates.
Um, holy irrelevant topic changer, Batman.

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06-25-2013, 11:02 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by BonMorrison View Post
People have this hilarious myth that Grabovski and Kessel don't work together when they literally played maybe 4 games together in the 2010/2011 season. They have not played a single game together since then. In that time frame, Kessel has become an elite passer and has improved in every facet of the game. Up until this season, the same argument could've been made for Grabovski. Kessel tends to make the players he plays with better than they are and he would be a perfect playmaker if Grabovski manages to get his sniping ability back that he had from 2010 to 2012. I honestly see no harm in trying them together but it will likely never happen. They've played together sporadically during line changes and have generated speed and pressure too. Here are some goals literally scored when they were in the middle of shifting lines:

Kessel and Grabovski set up Liles.


Kessel sets up Grabovski.


Kessel and Liles set up Grabovski for an OT goal.


Kessel sets up Grabovski for an OT goal.


Kessel sets up Kulemin.
lol not a lot of grabo setups in there, #problematic #wealreadyknowphilisaplaymaker

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06-25-2013, 11:12 PM
  #154
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Sign Weiss, sign Flowzak, Grabo on Bozak's wing. Why our coaches have been so stubborn to try new things (other than Lebda on PP) is beyond me

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06-25-2013, 11:22 PM
  #155
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Trade Grabovski out west to Calgary for Matt Stajan.

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06-26-2013, 05:08 AM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Lightsol View Post
Better than the assumption that you Grabo defenders seem to be making, which is that our coach, who has a Stanley Cup ring BTW, is intentionally or otherwise sabotaging the offensive ability of a player who's offense appears to have disappeared. Think about this for a minute; you seriously think it's more likely that Randy Carlyle doesn't know how to coach a player like Grabo, than it is that Grabo is being the typical pouty Russian who's mad about his role on the team being diminished by his own poor play and the emergence of a younger center?

Then again, Occam's Razor suggests the problem is simply that Grabo has always been overrated in Toronto, and now that he's being majorly overpaid, people are starting to see it.
Randy has been utilizing Grabovski against the top lines. That is a role that top forwards such as Datsyuk/ Zetterberg, Carter/ Richards, Sharp/ Toews/ Hossa, Bergeron/ Marchand/ Jagr, Forsberg's line in Colorado, Federov/ Yzerman, etc. I'd consider that a very important role. We can see that considering his ES TOI was second amongst centres in the regular season and was first amongst centres in the playoffs.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think Grabovski or Kulemin are very effective in a shut down role. You really don't pay >$2.8 million for conventional checking forwards ( especially wingers). Two-way forwards that offensively exploit the top lines are paid more, but in Chicago most of their depth players (3rd/ 4th) are on entry-level contracts. I can see Bolland leaving, and Bickell being resigned due to his physical presence.

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06-26-2013, 08:02 AM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Mikeyg View Post
lol not a lot of grabo setups in there, #problematic #wealreadyknowphilisaplaymaker
Did you not read the post or the post after this?

I'm aware that all these plays are Kessel setting Grabovski up. Consequently if you looked for Bozak/Kessel highlights, it would be literally the exact same issue therefore teh Grabo/Kessel experiment is something that should be tried as it is literally a low-risk, high-reward scenario. If it doesn't work - it doesn't work but there's no logic in not trying something that was only tried once for a span of 4 games, three years ago.

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06-26-2013, 08:24 AM
  #158
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Originally Posted by BonMorrison View Post
Did you not read the post or the post after this?

I'm aware that all these plays are Kessel setting Grabovski up. Consequently if you looked for Bozak/Kessel highlights, it would be literally the exact same issue therefore teh Grabo/Kessel experiment is something that should be tried as it is literally a low-risk, high-reward scenario. If it doesn't work - it doesn't work but there's no logic in not trying something that was only tried once for a span of 4 games, three years ago.
I bet Grabo could transition to a Kessel light Winger if they wanted to try that. He has the jump and dynamic zone entry going for him. He may not drive to the net but he can turn on a dime and cut into the slot for a shot.

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06-26-2013, 08:50 AM
  #159
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One other problem with the Grabo contact is how it affects others on our team when they are up for a new contract. If we have one inflated contract it will increase others ability to ask for inflated contracts also. Tell me why Bozacks agent would not bring up 5.5 for a comparison, even if he is not as good as Grabo he is our 1st line C by default. If Grabo is "worth" 5.5 Kessel must be worth 8.5 - 9.5 which he is not.

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06-26-2013, 09:12 AM
  #160
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I bet Grabo could transition to a Kessel light Winger if they wanted to try that. He has the jump and dynamic zone entry going for him. He may not drive to the net but he can turn on a dime and cut into the slot for a shot.
Yeah, I like this idea. Ideally you primarily want your centres back checking, but realistically, Grabo isn't the most defensive minded guy. Adding to your dynamic zone entry point, he's a pretty diligent forechecker, which is definitely something that compliments trying him out on the wing. More hustle into the zone, less responsibility to get back.

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06-26-2013, 12:10 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by BonMorrison View Post
Did you not read the post or the post after this?

I'm aware that all these plays are Kessel setting Grabovski up. Consequently if you looked for Bozak/Kessel highlights, it would be literally the exact same issue therefore teh Grabo/Kessel experiment is something that should be tried as it is literally a low-risk, high-reward scenario. If it doesn't work - it doesn't work but there's no logic in not trying something that was only tried once for a span of 4 games, three years ago.
It will NOT WORK. They dont play the same game style, theres no point in risking streaky players like phil getting a cold streak because grabo cant set him up. Grabo is NOT a playmaker, you cant make players something that they are not. You cant make komarov a goalscorer, even though the guy gets an "unmissable" chance every game, you cant make players something they arent. There is no evidence that grabo can produce top 6 numbers under RC, and that doesnt help his cause at all. You cant even explain how he went from being great in russia this same year to garbage in the NHL. The GI sickness thing is a joke, and hes not getting anymore chances, its either put out or go home for grabo this year. Say all you want about energy and all that crap, but a 5.5 player NEEDS TO PRODUCE.No production = see ya, and putting him with phil is not a get out of jail free card sorry.

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06-26-2013, 12:13 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
Trade Grabovski out west to Calgary for Matt Stajan.
Now we know who Rob Ford smokes crack with

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06-26-2013, 01:19 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by Mikeyg View Post
It will NOT WORK. They dont play the same game style, theres no point in risking streaky players like phil getting a cold streak because grabo cant set him up. Grabo is NOT a playmaker, you cant make players something that they are not. You cant make komarov a goalscorer, even though the guy gets an "unmissable" chance every game, you cant make players something they arent. There is no evidence that grabo can produce top 6 numbers under RC, and that doesnt help his cause at all. You cant even explain how he went from being great in russia this same year to garbage in the NHL. The GI sickness thing is a joke, and hes not getting anymore chances, its either put out or go home for grabo this year. Say all you want about energy and all that crap, but a 5.5 player NEEDS TO PRODUCE.No production = see ya, and putting him with phil is not a get out of jail free card sorry.
Yeesh - you actually didn't read my posts.

Please illustrate to me where I said Grabo was a playmaker. I'll wait. I said Kessel is the elite playmaker. Phil has proven he can produce with players that aren't in tune with his style of play so let me re-iterate one more time: It is a low-risk, high reward scenario. You complain that Grabo will be unable to set up Kessel which is fair, but show me all the beautiful plays Bozak has done to set up Phil. There is literally NO HARM in trying Grabovski with Kessel. At the very worst, there will be absolutely no difference. Next illustrate to me where I made all those excuses you just listed - I didn't. Those are other posters, I'm merely discussing an idea which made you go off on a eerily-Interactif-like rant.

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06-26-2013, 01:36 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by BonMorrison View Post
Yeesh - you actually didn't read my posts.

Please illustrate to me where I said Grabo was a playmaker. I'll wait. I said Kessel is the elite playmaker. Phil has proven he can produce with players that aren't in tune with his style of play so let me re-iterate one more time: It is a low-risk, high reward scenario. You complain that Grabo will be unable to set up Kessel which is fair, but show me all the beautiful plays Bozak has done to set up Phil. There is literally NO HARM in trying Grabovski with Kessel. At the very worst, there will be absolutely no difference. Next illustrate to me where I made all those excuses you just listed - I didn't. Those are other posters, I'm merely discussing an idea which made you go off on a eerily-Interactif-like rant.
You put your playmakers with your best goal scorers, you dont put a goal scoring center (albeit a bad one) who thinks shot first, with another guy who is an actual goal scorer (kessel) that also thinks shot first. This dynamic DOES NOT WORK. Enough of this crap with calling bozak a "lesser player" the guy can get 55-65 points a season at this current stage, but most importantly he is NOT a shot first center, thats why the bozak-phil dynamic works. Obviously im not going to sit here and say bozak is a 1c, which he isnt, the reason why it works for now is because he isnt a shot first forward. We arent going to deviate from that and put phil in a potential slump to satisfy some1's random thought, thats all there is too it. The "high reward" doesnt even exist right now, grabo has not proven in any context that he can play at a 5.5 m contract in terms of offensive production under RC, and potentially putting a streaky player in a slump is actually high risk as far as I am concerned.

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06-26-2013, 01:55 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by Mikeyg View Post
You put your playmakers with your best goal scorers, you dont put a goal scoring center (albeit a bad one) who thinks shot first, with another guy who is an actual goal scorer (kessel) that also thinks shot first. This dynamic DOES NOT WORK. Enough of this crap with calling bozak a "lesser player" the guy can get 55-65 points a season at this current stage, but most importantly he is NOT a shot first center, thats why the bozak-phil dynamic works. Obviously im not going to sit here and say bozak is a 1c, which he isnt, the reason why it works for now is because he isnt a shot first forward. We arent going to deviate from that and put phil in a potential slump to satisfy some1's random thought, thats all there is too it. The "high reward" doesnt even exist right now, grabo has not proven in any context that he can play at a 5.5 m contract in terms of offensive production under RC, and potentially putting a streaky player in a slump is actually high risk as far as I am concerned.
Except Kessel has shown he is just as much a playmaker as he is a goalscorer the past few seasons constantly leading the team in assists and almost being top 10 in the league this year. STOP putting words in my mouth - I never said Bozak was a lesser player. I said Bozak doesn't set Phil up anymore than Grabovski would but they are different players as you stated so trying them together carries literally no risk because Phil can produce in almost any circumstance.

Your logic is literally making it so Grabovski cannot live up to that contract in any circumstance. Yes, he likely never will live up to 5.5 but you're pretty much advocating that he should not get Top 6 ice time while stating that he needs to produce to stay on this team. So what is it gonna be? It seems like if you had it your way, he would stay on the team but not produce so you can continually drag him through the mud.

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06-26-2013, 02:41 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by Mikeyg View Post
It will NOT WORK. They dont play the same game style, theres no point in risking streaky players like phil getting a cold streak because grabo cant set him up. Grabo is NOT a playmaker, you cant make players something that they are not. You cant make komarov a goalscorer, even though the guy gets an "unmissable" chance every game, you cant make players something they arent. There is no evidence that grabo can produce top 6 numbers under RC, and that doesnt help his cause at all. You cant even explain how he went from being great in russia this same year to garbage in the NHL. The GI sickness thing is a joke, and hes not getting anymore chances, its either put out or go home for grabo this year. Say all you want about energy and all that crap, but a 5.5 player NEEDS TO PRODUCE.No production = see ya, and putting him with phil is not a get out of jail free card sorry.
You know that Bozak did not set Kessel up right? Wasn't it something like 8 primary assists on all Kessel goals. The bar is set so low there is no way Grabo can't do more than than. All he has to do is generate more rebounds and deflections than Bozak who doesn't shoot the puck. Bozak has never been able to set PK up so where is the risk?

The evidence that Grabo may produce at least marginal top 6 numbers is in his ridiculours home/road split. He isn't defensively line matched on the road, and presto, he scores again. Not like last year, but his ice time was cut back too. If you have a more reasonable explanation, I would love to hear it, but it seems pretty obvious. Different usage, different results. The linemates didn't change, nor the ice time, so the only difference must be who he was matched against. Yes he wasn't worth 5.5 but don't let his failure to earn the fat money cloud the fact that he can still play, if he is used the way he was until last season. Take the contract out of the equation, and he still had more road points than Bozak while playing less minutes and with players who don't score. He just isn't a shutdown guy.

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06-26-2013, 02:56 PM
  #167
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Originally Posted by BonMorrison View Post
Except Kessel has shown he is just as much a playmaker as he is a goalscorer the past few seasons constantly leading the team in assists and almost being top 10 in the league this year. STOP putting words in my mouth - I never said Bozak was a lesser player. I said Bozak doesn't set Phil up anymore than Grabovski would but they are different players as you stated so trying them together carries literally no risk because Phil can produce in almost any circumstance.

Your logic is literally making it so Grabovski cannot live up to that contract in any circumstance. Yes, he likely never will live up to 5.5 but you're pretty much advocating that he should not get Top 6 ice time while stating that he needs to produce to stay on this team. So what is it gonna be? It seems like if you had it your way, he would stay on the team but not produce so you can continually drag him through the mud.
You can make your reputation on the 3rd line playing sheltered minutes, if kadri, of whom most of this fanbase was on the brink of labeling as a bust can do it, he can too, im not asking for a kadri like ppg outburst, im asking for PROMISE, give us something guy, he is not putting out right now and thats unacceptable. The main thing I personally do not like about grabo is his attitude, I really think he has a problem battling through adversity, and in his own words he seems bored out there. He looked ok during the playoffs (Where ppl on here are always fast to mention how much time he actually played per game) because he said he was "excited" and seemed more energized. You guys are making it seem like good people cant be bought out, which just isnt the case.

Im sorry but for 5.5 million you NEED to produce offensively, all im saying through all of this, which you cant even deny, yeah i get that this could of been an off year or whatever (Which is why I agree with giving him 1 more year) he has not shown any offensive promise under randy and say what you want, but it IS troubling. Enough with the linemates and icetime excuses, he played an ample amount of ice time, and had plenty of opportunity to show some offense, but 1 goal in the last 30 games? theres something wrong with that. Its almost 100% unlikely that he will play with phil going forward because he hasnt shown that he can produce under RC, and RC will tend to only reward those who deserve it the most. Its the exact same terrible argument as the colborne one. RC will NOT give you anything, it has to be earned, ask yourself HONESTLY, does grabo deserve 1c? the answer is no

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06-26-2013, 02:59 PM
  #168
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You know that Bozak did not set Kessel up right? Wasn't it something like 8 primary assists on all Kessel goals. The bar is set so low there is no way Grabo can't do more than than. All he has to do is generate more rebounds and deflections than Bozak who doesn't shoot the puck. Bozak has never been able to set PK up so where is the risk?

The evidence that Grabo may produce at least marginal top 6 numbers is in his ridiculours home/road split. He isn't defensively line matched on the road, and presto, he scores again. Not like last year, but his ice time was cut back too. If you have a more reasonable explanation, I would love to hear it, but it seems pretty obvious. Different usage, different results. The linemates didn't change, nor the ice time, so the only difference must be who he was matched against. Yes he wasn't worth 5.5 but don't let his failure to earn the fat money cloud the fact that he can still play, if he is used the way he was until last season. Take the contract out of the equation, and he still had more road points than Bozak while playing less minutes and with players who don't score. He just isn't a shutdown guy.
My issue is the promise, he has not shown the offensive promise under randy. Im fine with the 8 primary assists or whatever, you need to address the shot first issue as well, its just basic scoring line chemistry. Until grabo shows SOMETHING this year, his play will not warrant 1c time. 1 goal in 30 games or whatever is not helping his cause.
Yeah i just reread your 2nd paragraph, I agree with some of it, but dont act like he was put in the shutdown role from the beginning, its his own fault that his 2c position got taken from a more deserving kadri, he dug his own hole and needs to produce some offensive promise in order to receive more offensive mins imo

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06-26-2013, 03:01 PM
  #169
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You can make your reputation on the 3rd line playing sheltered minutes, if kadri, of whom most of this fanbase was on the brink of labeling as a bust can do it, he can too, im not asking for a kadri like ppg outburst, im asking for PROMISE, give us something guy, he is not putting out right now and thats unacceptable. The main thing I personally do not like about grabo is his attitude, I really think he has a problem battling through adversity, and in his own words he seems bored out there. He looked ok during the playoffs (Where ppl on here are always fast to mention how much time he actually played per game) because he said he was "excited" and seemed more energized. You guys are making it seem like good people cant be bought out, which just isnt the case.

Im sorry but for 5.5 million you NEED to produce offensively, all im saying through all of this, which you cant even deny, yeah i get that this could of been an off year or whatever (Which is why I agree with giving him 1 more year) he has not shown any offensive promise under randy and say what you want, but it IS troubling. Enough with the linemates and icetime excuses, he played an ample amount of ice time, and had plenty of opportunity to show some offense, but 1 goal in the last 30 games? theres something wrong with that. Its almost 100% unlikely that he will play with phil going forward because he hasnt shown that he can produce under RC, and RC will tend to only reward those who deserve it the most. Its the exact same terrible argument as the colborne one. RC will NOT give you anything, it has to be earned, ask yourself HONESTLY, does grabo deserve 1c? the answer is no
But he doesn't get sheltered minutes which is exactly the problem. The entire reason why Kadri had his gigantic point outburst was because Carlyle intentionally gave him sheltered minutes. Kadri's point output hit a sharp decline as soon as he usurped the 2nd line position from Grabovski. Do you really think Carlyle is going to give Grabovski sheltered minutes out there? It's hard to make a reputation when a) you're not going to get top six minutes an b) the minutes you get are not going to be sheltered minutes. I get where you're coming from but with Carlyle's track record, you KNOW that's not what's going to happen next season (if Grabovski is still around).

I already said he will likely never live up to his 5.5 and has been troubled under Carlyle hence my suggestion of switching things up and trying something that hasn't been tried in 3 years.

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06-26-2013, 03:06 PM
  #170
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But he doesn't get sheltered minutes which is exactly the problem. The entire reason why Kadri had his gigantic point outburst was because Carlyle intentionally gave him sheltered minutes. Kadri's point output hit a sharp decline as soon as he usurped the 2nd line position from Grabovski. Do you really think Carlyle is going to give Grabovski sheltered minutes out there? It's hard to make a reputation when a) you're not going to get top six minutes an b) the minutes you get are not going to be sheltered minutes. I get where you're coming from but with Carlyle's track record, you KNOW that's not what's going to happen next season (if Grabovski is still around).

I already said he will likely never live up to his 5.5 and has been troubled under Carlyle hence my suggestion of switching things up and trying something that hasn't been tried in 3 years.
Its a big circle though, Kadri presented great offensive instinct/production out of camp, randy gives him a chance with it and he explodes and takes the job from grabo. But now, as you see in the 2nd half of the season/playoffs kadri is drawing 2nd pairs regularly now because he is warranting more attention from the other coaching staffs of the league. This gives grabo an opportunity to produce, and he needs to show us something concrete to prove that he can actually produce under randy. It all starts with grabo, if he shows that he can buy into the team cycle game and get the offense rolling, He will definitely get more offensive minutes, its really up to him, because as you say, randy isnt going to give him anything.

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06-26-2013, 03:13 PM
  #171
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My issue is the promise, he has not shown the offensive promise under randy. Im fine with the 8 primary assists or whatever, you need to address the shot first issue as well, its just basic scoring line chemistry. Until grabo shows SOMETHING this year, his play will not warrant 1c time. 1 goal in 30 games or whatever is not helping his cause.
Yeah i just reread your 2nd paragraph, I agree with some of it, but dont act like he was put in the shutdown role from the beginning, its his own fault that his 2c position got taken from a more deserving kadri, he dug his own hole and needs to produce some offensive promise in order to receive more offensive mins imo
You are really on fire with misinformed posts!

"but dont act like he was put in the shutdown role from the beginning"

Why shouldn't people act like that when it was the case? Right from day one Grabovski was our top defensive C who was routinely matched up against the opposition's top lines. Carlyle didn't trust Kadri to play tough minutes and the Bozak unit has never been know for it defensive play. Grabovski wasn't getting sheltered minutes and offensive opportunities and then had that position taken from him by Kadri. I don't know if you didn't follow the team this season or how you can be so oblivious to player usage, but Kadri always had the soft minutes and offensive zone starts he didn't take them from Grabovski because he was more deserving.

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06-26-2013, 03:16 PM
  #172
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Its a big circle though, Kadri presented great offensive instinct/production out of camp, randy gives him a chance with it and he explodes and takes the job from grabo. But now, as you see in the 2nd half of the season/playoffs kadri is drawing 2nd pairs regularly now because he is warranting more attention from the other coaching staffs of the league. This gives grabo an opportunity to produce, and he needs to show us something concrete to prove that he can actually produce under randy. It all starts with grabo, if he shows that he can buy into the team cycle game and get the offense rolling, He will definitely get more offensive minutes, its really up to him, because as you say, randy isnt going to give him anything.
But that's just the thing. Yes, Kadri started drawing harder pairings which is why he was producing less but the issue was that it didn't give Grabovski an oppurtunity because he was still drawing the oppositions top lines and getting the defensive zone starts. Kadri was getting offensive zone starts even when he wasn't producing, Grabovski would draw the defensive zone and the top lines no matter what line he was playing on.

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06-26-2013, 03:19 PM
  #173
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Originally Posted by FLASH905 View Post
Sign Weiss, sign Flowzak, Grabo on Bozak's wing. Why our coaches have been so stubborn to try new things (other than Lebda on PP) is beyond me
I think the Leafs should reacquire Lebda and then trade him with whatever else they want to a division rival like the Bruins. That's like what 10 or 12 guaranteed points next year? Just thinking outside the box here

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06-26-2013, 03:24 PM
  #174
Mikeyg
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Originally Posted by bruyns View Post
You are really on fire with misinformed posts!

"but dont act like he was put in the shutdown role from the beginning"

Why shouldn't people act like that when it was the case? Right from day one Grabovski was our top defensive C who was routinely matched up against the opposition's top lines. Carlyle didn't trust Kadri to play tough minutes and the Bozak unit has never been know for it defensive play. Grabovski wasn't getting sheltered minutes and offensive opportunities and then had that position taken from him by Kadri. I don't know if you didn't follow the team this season or how you can be so oblivious to player usage, but Kadri always had the soft minutes and offensive zone starts he didn't take them from Grabovski because he was more deserving.
Was grabo our number 3 and or at times 4c coming out of camp? no. Ive been watching leafs games for literally 21 years, im quite informed thanks. The problem that this whole argument has, is you people say that "phil can create his own offense" well why cant grabo then? he has shown us NOTHING in terms of pure offensive production in the last 25+ games. Please dont try to say that kadri got the offensive starts because he was less deserving then grabo... the guy had 3 ppg seasons in the marlies before even getting a chance, and he sure as hell made the most of it. Lets think honestly here for a second, if the other team ices the puck, who would you HONESTLY play, grabo or kadri right now? the decision is obvious beyond belief. All I want is some offensive promise out of grabo to start this season, if that is too much to ask then he should be bought out right now. Offensive promise gives you offensive OPPORTUNITY, thats what it all comes down too imo

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Old
06-26-2013, 03:27 PM
  #175
Mikeyg
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Originally Posted by BonMorrison View Post
But that's just the thing. Yes, Kadri started drawing harder pairings which is why he was producing less but the issue was that it didn't give Grabovski an oppurtunity because he was still drawing the oppositions top lines and getting the defensive zone starts. Kadri was getting offensive zone starts even when he wasn't producing, Grabovski would draw the defensive zone and the top lines no matter what line he was playing on.
That is due to the offensive potential and promise that he showed all year long. Promise grants opportunity, thats why all im asking for is PROMISE. Promise doesnt need offensive starts, promise means making plays and creating some offense for yourself, establishing cycles, starting with the puck, winning faceoffs, winning the 1 on 1 battles, doing all of these things properly will grant him opportunity. You have to help yourself before u can be granted opportunity imo.

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