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Oilers and Gagner working on extension: [UPD: Elected Arbitration]

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06-26-2013, 12:02 AM
  #576
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Originally Posted by Tarus View Post
So you are saying you don't like RNH?

Because those are first line centers, and Gagner is the team's second line center going forward.
The Nuge is pretty good defensively but still needs to be sheltered.. we need to replace Gagner with someone who can do just that.
Long term we cant have both RNH and Gagner playing C .

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06-26-2013, 12:04 AM
  #577
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So you are saying you don't like RNH?

Because those are first line centers, and Gagner is the team's second line center going forward.
So... Sharp, Krejci, Richards, Kesler, Zetterberg, Martin Hanzal sometimes?

Dealing in absolutes is a bad way to look at it. Gagner is a second line centre, but he's pure offence. He'd thrive in Phoenix, where the second line centre ideally is all defence. RNH is a bit of everything, which compromises the team just a little.

just my two cents.

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06-26-2013, 12:08 AM
  #578
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Originally Posted by Petro Points View Post
The Nuge is pretty good defensively but still needs to be sheltered.. we need to replace Gagner with someone who can do just that.
Long term we cant have both RNH and Gagner playing C .
So you're saying RNH will never be an elite first line center, and will never be able to match up against the best centers in the league? Requiring even in his prime years, shelter from a bigger(and presumably better) centers? He's not small, he's not soft, he's not easy to knock off the puck, nor is he weak defensively, his main issue is that at age 19/20, he's not physically mature yet.

The argument that the team can't move forward with by RNH and Gagner long term has never made sense. It's the short term that is the issue, and only because they are both so young.

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06-26-2013, 12:08 AM
  #579
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Come on. So rather than lose 1M elsewhere on the roster, they're going to trade Nuge? I find that tough to believe. Hell they could even retain 1M so Gagner's salary is the 4M you deem ok and then trade him. The Nuge is going nowhere. Signing Gagner to a slight overpayment isn't going to be the end of the world and require the selling off of our best players.
it is not just about the money .. it is about having the right combination. Might as well extend Hemsky for 3 more yrs if we are keeping Gagner.. At this point I would take Stoll @ 4.5M than Gagner at the same price just because it balances out the roster better.

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06-26-2013, 12:08 AM
  #580
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I wonder if he takes a <4.5 million contract if we give him a longer term

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06-26-2013, 12:10 AM
  #581
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Originally Posted by Petro Points View Post
4M is not 'only' .. It is big money...
Voracek and JVR are making 4.25M .. Tavares 5.5M
Gagner at 4M as a RFA isnt bargain .. it is pretty much par..

I dont know how we can justify keeping both RNH and Gagner on the roster considering neither is physical or good on the dot. The people proposing handing out 5M+ to Gagner better be prepared to lose RNH down the road.
This needs to be taken into account, we hear the whole $5 million number, but we are buying 1 year of him as a RFA as well. Say we sign him for 4 years, the first year should be no more than $4 million that means that for the next 3 years he'd be making $16 million or $5.33 million per season. Where's the discount? Say what you will about Hall and Eberle but they did take a fair deal, Gagner making $0.67 million less than Hall and Eberle annually going forward is wtf worthy IMO.

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06-26-2013, 12:10 AM
  #582
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Originally Posted by Petro Points View Post
The Nuge is pretty good defensively but still needs to be sheltered.. we need to replace Gagner with someone who can do just that.
Long term we cant have both RNH and Gagner playing C .
I believe Nuge played the tough minutes this year, and was fine defensively. He can do the same next season. Hall - Gagner - Yakupov tear all over the ice and keep teams on their heels. Big winger - RNH - Eberle take the tougher minutes against the better players, and try to outscore them.

Even I agree with your statement that Gagner + RNH can't work long term, and I don't, long term doesn't mean trade now.

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06-26-2013, 12:12 AM
  #583
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Come on. So rather than lose 1M elsewhere on the roster, they're going to trade Nuge? I find that tough to believe. Hell they could even retain 1M so Gagner's salary is the 4M you deem ok and then trade him. The Nuge is going nowhere. Signing Gagner to a slight overpayment isn't going to be the end of the world and require the selling off of our best players.
Hall and Eberle have set the pay scale here, Gagner needs to fall in line or get moved. If we're paying him $5 million next season and RNH comes back and has a PPG season, why should he settle for $1 million more? On top of that the more that we throw Gagner's way the less that we'll have to fill other spots on the roster with quality.

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06-26-2013, 12:13 AM
  #584
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[QUOTE=EE AY HOCKEY CONNECT;68003277]
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Originally Posted by KlimasLoveChild View Post
Bwahahaha....walkin on pretty thin ice on this one..........every year is virtually identical except for his second year dip and this last season which was quite the improvement if all you look at are ppg. You have to realize that each .01ppg doesn't even amount to a point over the coarse of a season...I think you basically disproved yourself...[/]


I guess going from -17 to + 5 while slightly improving points is not improving.

Absolutely ridiculous. We get it, you don't like Gagner. To say he has gone stagnant at 23 is outright crazy.

He, like most other players will improve significantly physically, offensively and defensively.

I bet most of the people who think he is a "smurph" can't even skate and give up 40 pounds to Gagner.

You should probably wait for a rational thought before you cherry pick a random stat which when examined closer doesn't support your cause. I would also suggest you go back and read a few posts back before you pop off.

I wouldn't say I dislike Gagner, I like his atitude. I just don't like the prospects of the team I cheer for employing him as a #2 center at 5mil per for the foreseeable future. I'd like them to win the cup again in my life time for god sake.

My previous post was simply pointing out the fact that using his ppg to show he has had a steady progression of improvement is ridiculous. Five stagnant years in ppg with one shortened year where his ppg spikes. This is suspect at best.

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06-26-2013, 12:16 AM
  #585
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Originally Posted by s7ark View Post
I believe Nuge played the tough minutes this year, and was fine defensively. He can do the same next season. Hall - Gagner - Yakupov tear all over the ice and keep teams on their heels. Big winger - RNH - Eberle take the tougher minutes against the better players, and try to outscore them.

Even I agree with your statement that Gagner + RNH can't work long term, and I don't, long term doesn't mean trade now.
And you expect teams to be lining up to take Gagner and his long term 5M contract later on? another 49pt season and he will be a worse bargain than Horcoff \ Luongo.
Probably too harsh on him but I just dont see Gagner as a 4M player.

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06-26-2013, 12:19 AM
  #586
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Were there any updates on the sens and oil deal by he insiders here today?
Crickets.

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Originally Posted by s7ark View Post
I believe Nuge played the tough minutes this year, and was fine defensively. He can do the same next season. Hall - Gagner - Yakupov tear all over the ice and keep teams on their heels. Big winger - RNH - Eberle take the tougher minutes against the better players, and try to outscore them.

Even I agree with your statement that Gagner + RNH can't work long term, and I don't, long term doesn't mean trade now.
Not sure why you'd put Nuge in a mostly shut down role and give Gagner our 2 most explosive wingers? If we're going power vs. power then Hall needs to be with RNH and Gagner gets either Nail or Eberle and our 2nd best LW, his job is to produce offense in a secondary role, that's what he'd get paid the big bucks to do so giving him possibly our 2 best wingers would be defeating the purpose of what Gagner is good at unless you think that Gagner is a better offensive center than RNH?

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06-26-2013, 12:22 AM
  #587
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Originally Posted by Burnt Biscuits View Post
We are headed into a year with a shrinking cap and while I anticipate it going higher again it's not a certainty at this point and find it hard to justify giving him much more based on his level of play, especially when looking at current contracts of undersized centers who play a more complete game than Gagner.
That is why Gagner and his agent should end up being very disappointed if they think he's a $5M player at this point. A lot of players will have to accept much lower deals than they think they deserve.

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06-26-2013, 12:22 AM
  #588
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Originally Posted by Petro Points View Post
And you expect teams to be lining up to take Gagner and his long term 5M contract later on? another 49pt season and he will be a worse bargain than Horcoff \ Luongo.
Probably too harsh on him but I just dont see Gagner as a 4M player.
My worry as well but $4 million IMO is a fair number based on what he brings to the table. $5 million is nutty IMO but I'm not the man signing the checks so it's not my call. At $4 million he'd be tradeable unless he really regresses/gets hurt. At $5 million? I'm not so sure. We'd probably have to eat a million $ of cap hit to get a good return for him.

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06-26-2013, 12:22 AM
  #589
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Originally Posted by SDig14 View Post
I want a centre in my top 6 that can play against other teams top lines, be tough to play against, win faceoffs and play good defense.

Who goes up against the likes of Toews, Bergeron, Getzlaf, kopitar, Sedin, Kesler, Datsyuk, zetterberg, etc when it comes playoff time and you get away with anything?

If this team ever actually makes the playoffs we are going to get destroyed down the middle. We will be lucky to win a game let alone 16 of them.
RNH goes against them. Typically in the playoffs your #1 C goes up against the other teams #1 C. RNH is already great defensively and with a rehabbed shoulder plus a year to get stronger he is going to be perfectly fine.

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06-26-2013, 12:25 AM
  #590
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it is not just about the money .. it is about having the right combination. Might as well extend Hemsky for 3 more yrs if we are keeping Gagner.. At this point I would take Stoll @ 4.5M than Gagner at the same price just because it balances out the roster better.
What do you mean by balance? Do you mean size down the middle? Winning FOs? Winning puck battles? All these things can be accomplished or the impact minimized in other ways, where we don't lose a 23 yo play who already has 258 NHL points.

Add a big high FO% 3C. Hell maybe even Stoll, although I'd prefer Laich. Bring in a big winger like Stalberg, Prospal, or Penner to help RNH and Eberle win more puck battles. If Gagner can't revert to the 48% on the draw he accomplished the last full season, then play him with Hall and let Hall recover free pucks on the 55% of draws that Gagner loses. Remember the Hawks just won the cup and apart from Toews who was 53%, none of the other guys who took 180+ draws hit 47.5%. And Chicago isn't a huge bruising team either.

2 Michal Handzus CHI 336 46.4
3 Dave Bolland CHI 200 42.5
4 Marcus Kruger CHI 189 37.6
5 Andrew Shaw CHI 180 47.2

Perhaps FO% isn't the super important stat we think it is.

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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
Hall and Eberle have set the pay scale here, Gagner needs to fall in line or get moved. If we're paying him $5 million next season and RNH comes back and has a PPG season, why should he settle for $1 million more? On top of that the more that we throw Gagner's way the less that we'll have to fill other spots on the roster with quality.
It's a 500K difference at most. 500K can be found elsewhere on the team, maybe only go with 13 forwards.

As for RNH and his contract, that's a topic for another thread. But my thought on the matter is that if he hits 80p+ next year he's more likely thinking he should be above the 6M that Hall and Ebs signed for regardless of how much Gagner makes. Because he's comparable to them, not Gags. Maybe they should try to lock him up for 5.5 or something this summer? But again, topic for another thread.


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06-26-2013, 12:27 AM
  #591
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That is why Gagner and his agent should end up being very disappointed if they think he's a $5M player at this point. A lot of players will have to accept much lower deals than they think they deserve.
Well someone's gonna get squeezed since teams can't lower the cap hit by tacking on extra low salary years at the end. Now you have the like of Perry, Getzlaf, etc getting 8m+ cap hits instead of perhaps 6.5/7

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06-26-2013, 12:29 AM
  #592
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Originally Posted by s7ark View Post
What do you mean by balance? Do you mean size down the middle? Winning FOs? Winning puck battles? All these things can be accomplished or the impact minimized in other ways, where we don't lose a 23 yo play who already has 258 NHL points.

Add a big high FO% 3C. Hell maybe even Stoll, although I'd prefer Laich. Bring in a big winger like Stalberg, Prospal, or Penner to help RNH and Eberle win more puck battles. If Gagner can't revert to the 48% on the draw he accomplished the last full season, then play him with Hall and let Hall recover free pucks on the 55% of draws that Gagner loses. Remember the Hawks just won the cup and apart from Toews who was 53%, none of the other guys who took 180+ draws hit 47.5%. And Chicago isn't a huge bruising team either.

2 Michal Handzus CHI 336 46.4
3 Dave Bolland CHI 200 42.5
4 Marcus Kruger CHI 189 37.6
5 Andrew Shaw CHI 180 47.2

Perhaps FO% isn't the super important stat we think it is.
Its time to stop trying to build around guys to make up for their deficiencies. Weve been doing it or talking about doing it for years. If only we had a third line center Horcoff could concentrate more on offense and wouldnt be so worn out. If only we could find someone to play with Hemsky he would realize his potential etc etc.

Enough.

Its time for guys to pull their own weight around here and if they cant, then they shouldnt be paid like they can.

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06-26-2013, 12:32 AM
  #593
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RNH goes against them. Typically in the playoffs your #1 C goes up against the other teams #1 C. RNH is already great defensively and with a rehabbed shoulder plus a year to get stronger he is going to be perfectly fine.
So when a team has 2 good centers then we'll just lose games because their 2nd line center torches ours or when they match up their top center against Gagner we get torched?

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06-26-2013, 12:33 AM
  #594
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Its time to stop trying to build around guys to make up for their deficiencies. Weve been doing it or talking about doing it for years. If only we had a third line center Horcoff could concentrate more on offense and wouldnt be so worn out. If only we could find someone to play with Hemsky he would realize his potential etc etc.

Enough.

Its time for guys to pull their own weight around here and if they cant, then they shouldnt be paid like they can.
Exactly. That's why I support keeping the 23yo player who tied for 16th in C scoring this season. We need guys that can pull their weight. And guys that you can rely on to put up points in the NHL cost money to sign.

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06-26-2013, 12:34 AM
  #595
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So when a team has 2 good centers then we'll just lose games because their 2nd line center torches ours or when they match up their top center against Gagner we get torched?
Gagner is one of the better 2nd line centres in the league, I think you would agree with that. I also stated we should get Peverley if you're worried about Gagner or RNH losing draws.

Getting torched in what way? I don't understand what Gagner does that will get his line torched.

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06-26-2013, 12:42 AM
  #596
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My worry as well but $4 million IMO is a fair number based on what he brings to the table. $5 million is nutty IMO but I'm not the man signing the checks so it's not my call. At $4 million he'd be tradeable unless he really regresses/gets hurt. At $5 million? I'm not so sure. We'd probably have to eat a million $ of cap hit to get a good return for him.
He's not gonna sign at 4mil, especially since he's 1 year away from becoming the youngest UFA ever. Guys like Pacioretty, Marchand, Versteeg have cap hits in the 4.4/4.5m range and Gagner easily matches those guys as comparables

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06-26-2013, 12:44 AM
  #597
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This Gagner talk is starting to dominate this thread. I will move it to the Gagner thread.

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And you expect teams to be lining up to take Gagner and his long term 5M contract later on? another 49pt season and he will be a worse bargain than Horcoff \ Luongo.
Probably too harsh on him but I just dont see Gagner as a 4M player.
Worst case scenario, you are right and we have to retain 1M to get his cap hit down to 4M. Best case scenario, I am right and Gagner flirts with 65 points playing between our two most offensive players.

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Not sure why you'd put Nuge in a mostly shut down role and give Gagner our 2 most explosive wingers? If we're going power vs. power then Hall needs to be with RNH and Gagner gets either Nail or Eberle and our 2nd best LW, his job is to produce offense in a secondary role, that's what he'd get paid the big bucks to do so giving him possibly our 2 best wingers would be defeating the purpose of what Gagner is good at unless you think that Gagner is a better offensive center than RNH?
I think RNH is smart enough and has good enough vision to make those he plays with better. Eberle, with his laser shot and lightning hands, can make short work of defenses when RNH drops the puck on his stick and he's got a couple of steps in each direction. Giving that pair a big winger to help with puck battles and cash in on goalmouth scrambles created by the other two seems like a good way to maximize the potential of the line.

The other top 6 line works through the Hall engine. Gagner's passing can feed him the puck. Hall creates the chaos, Yakupov cashes in.

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06-26-2013, 12:46 AM
  #598
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Exactly. That's why I support keeping the 23yo player who tied for 16th in C scoring this season. We need guys that can pull their weight. And guys that you can rely on to put up points in the NHL cost money to sign.
He's never put up fifty points in a season. That gets you five million dollars? And not even a ufa at that? He was one of the worst 5v5 centers in the entire league this year. 164th in GAON/60 for centers. That's ****ing terrible.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...6+27+28#snip=f

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06-26-2013, 12:50 AM
  #599
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I think RNH is smart enough and has good enough vision to make those he plays with better. Eberle, with his laser shot and lightning hands, can make short work of defenses when RNH drops the puck on his stick and he's got a couple of steps in each direction.
Don't forget how deadly RNH's shot is. Defences back off of him and he will make them pay with a healthy shoulder.
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Hall creates the chaos, Yakupov cashes in.
Pretty much how I saw that last stretch. This chemistry is probably the only good thing that came out of the end of the season.

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06-26-2013, 12:52 AM
  #600
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So when does everyone think the trade floodgates will open. Tommorow, later in the week, draft day (sunday)?

I need to know when to start obsessively clicking on the refresh button on my browser and checking twitter every 5 min


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