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Sather Speaks: Lack of Puck Possession Had "A lot to do" with Torts' firing

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Old
06-25-2013, 07:24 PM
  #201
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
No disagreement there at all.

I was frustrated by the Nash trade and subsequent breakup of our depth group. There's a phrase I always use to describe Sather's mindset. It was a complete misunderstanding of what made the team successful in the first place. He didn't understand his own team. Just like it seems he had no idea what was going on with his own team during the season.

None of that absolves Tortorella's awful coaching performance this year.

Quite honestly, it's pretty amazing that despite both of those things, we still made it to the 2nd round.
Torts had input on the roster moves. It's not like Sather above Tort's head and forced a player onto him.

On a side note, watching the Torts press conference from earlier, I would not like what I'm hearing from him if I'm a Canucks fan. He sounds very unsure of himself.

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06-25-2013, 07:37 PM
  #202
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this happens all the time. Tell me the last time a coach didn't get " resigned " to a contract... they always get fired with years left on their contact



This isn't comparable to a players contract
But do they always get fired a couple of months after signing an extension? Coaches do get fired with years left on their contract, true. However, at the press conference, Sather made it sound like Torts system and style of play does not fit in today's NHL. Had he just arrived at that conclusion? If he believed that, why did he sign him to an extension? Doesn't that signal a belief in the coach and his system? The Rangers were not world beaters this year, struggling through much of it only to come on late to make the playoffs. Why not see how the season plays out and whether he thinks Torts is the right man for the job and for this latest group of players that he assembled?

I, again, think it signals more that Sather has no long-term plan and/or is blowing steam up our butts. As chosen pointed out, Sather is the biggest reason we find ourselves with another new coach, new system and new plan.

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06-25-2013, 07:39 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Vidic15 View Post
Torts had input on the roster moves. It's not like Sather above Tort's head and forced a player onto him.

On a side note, watching the Torts press conference from earlier, I would not like what I'm hearing from him if I'm a Canucks fan. He sounds very unsure of himself.
Torts definitely had a say on some with Richards being a prime example but Sather had final say on any and all moves. Particularly, with respect to the bottom six and depth.

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06-25-2013, 07:54 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
Gaborik was the highest scoring RW in the league in 2011-2012. If you want to argue about where that makes him rank compared to the rest of the right wings in the NHL when you take defense and other things into account, that's fine, but at the very least it's easy to say that Gaborik was the best goal scoring RW in the NHL
I never said he wasn't a good goal scorer. It's the rest of his game that I don't like.

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06-25-2013, 07:59 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
It's easy to absolve the players of everything, though, when they're playing a system that isn't suited to their roster and they aren't given enough roster help besides.
Thankfully, that won't be an issue next year.

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06-25-2013, 08:31 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
No disagreement there at all.

I was frustrated by the Nash trade and subsequent breakup of our depth group. There's a phrase I always use to describe Sather's mindset. It was a complete misunderstanding of what made the team successful in the first place. He didn't understand his own team. Just like it seems he had no idea what was going on with his own team during the season.

None of that absolves Tortorella's awful coaching performance this year.

Quite honestly, it's pretty amazing that despite both of those things, we still made it to the 2nd round.
This is what has me optimistic. I know Slats needs to make a couple of big moves still but hoping that Gorton can influence the proceedings a bit and/or we get lucky.

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06-25-2013, 08:37 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
Thankfully, that won't be an issue next year.
Still could be easily. But no point in letting one of those happen when the man who was coach showed no signs of trying to change things. The person making that decision is the one responsible for the roster moves, and that pretty likely will end up the same. We'll see. I'm much more hopeful about AV coaching this team next year than I would have been Tortorella.

By the way, this is why I'm a huge fan of separating GM and Team President responsibilities. Layers of accountability are important.

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06-26-2013, 05:17 AM
  #208
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
Still could be easily. But no point in letting one of those happen when the man who was coach showed no signs of trying to change things. The person making that decision is the one responsible for the roster moves, and that pretty likely will end up the same. We'll see. I'm much more hopeful about AV coaching this team next year than I would have been Tortorella.

By the way, this is why I'm a huge fan of separating GM and Team President responsibilities. Layers of accountability are important.
Oddly, some Vancouver fans had the same complaint about Vigneault's lack of changing tactics. Even if Torts had changed tactics, don't you think that things could have gotten worse and not better?

The Rangers will always do pretty well as long as Lundqvist is here. Even when they are outplayed, he will more often than not keep them in the game.

Combine that with a defensively-disciplined team, which they certainly were under Torts, and it will be rare that they get blown out.

I still believe that there just is not enough offensive creativity in this roster. Aside from McDonagh, no defenseman has displayed that they might be able to become an offensive force. That might change under a new coach, but if it doesn't there will be even more of a shooting gallery on Hank than we are used to seeing if they go with a less disciplined defensive style.

The other strength of the team is skating. They have some fine ones. If they open it up with these guys and some of them improve, no doubt the Rangers will contend for a Cup. However, two years ago they were a major contender for the Cup, as well, so Torts didn't exactly sh** the bed either.

By the way, as to puck possession, that is an individual skill. Jagr is great at it. Dubinsky was great at it. He clearly learned from Jagr. Watching the playoffs showed many players who are good at it. I don't see that many Rangers who are that good at it.

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06-26-2013, 08:27 AM
  #209
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
By the way, as to puck possession, that is an individual skill. Jagr is great at it. Dubinsky was great at it. He clearly learned from Jagr. Watching the playoffs showed many players who are good at it. I don't see that many Rangers who are that good at it.
Im glad somebody said it - all comes back to personnel again. EVERY team in the league wants to have the puck. Fact of the matter is, the Rangers just dont have many players that are good with the puck.

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06-26-2013, 08:42 AM
  #210
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
Oddly, some Vancouver fans had the same complaint about Vigneault's lack of changing tactics. Even if Torts had changed tactics, don't you think that things could have gotten worse and not better?
The risk is inherent, but necessary when what you're doing isn't working either.

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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
I still believe that there just is not enough offensive creativity in this roster. Aside from McDonagh, no defenseman has displayed that they might be able to become an offensive force. That might change under a new coach, but if it doesn't there will be even more of a shooting gallery on Hank than we are used to seeing if they go with a less disciplined defensive style.
More of a shooting gallery on Hank when the puck is in the defensive zone, but the puck should be in the defensive zone for less time. That's the point of talking about puck possession.

I disagree that McDonagh is the only one. Staal has shown glimpses of it. Del Zotto has been it, but was constantly reined in. Stralman has shown glimpses of it. I think, in general, our D is suited to play a puck possession game, even if they aren't racking up points. All have good stick skills. All are mobile. It's just a matter of reapplying their skills.

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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
By the way, as to puck possession, that is an individual skill. Jagr is great at it. Dubinsky was great at it. He clearly learned from Jagr. Watching the playoffs showed many players who are good at it. I don't see that many Rangers who are that good at it.
The implication of that is that it is a skill that can be developed. They spent zero time with that kind of thing, or other puck control skills, in practice, it seems like. That was actually a problem I identified in 2010-11 with the team. There is no reason at all why NHL players should be making so many poor passes, whether the skill level of the team is high or not compared to other NHL teams.

People need to practice constantly to maintain their abilities at a high level. This kind of thing is true for all activities involving skill. I'm a bass player (nominally at this point). I used to be a very, very good bass player. I haven't played regularly in at least a year. Can I pick up a bass and still play decently? Sure, but it's going to be sloppy, by my standards. In order to get back to where I was, I would need to play for an hour a day for a month and then I would need to play at least 3 hours per week in practice to maintain my chops.

NHL players are no different when it comes to puck control skills. It's really something I felt like they never worked on all that much in practice. All things were system oriented.

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06-26-2013, 08:45 AM
  #211
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Im glad somebody said it - all comes back to personnel again. EVERY team in the league wants to have the puck. Fact of the matter is, the Rangers just dont have many players that are good with the puck.
Stepan, Brassard, Nash, Callahan (most of the time), Hagelin, (potentially) Kreider, Zuccarello, McDonagh, Girardi, Staal, Del Zotto, Stralman, Moore. They have plenty of players who are good with the puck. As we've said plenty of times, the bottom-6 is a black hole when it comes to that stuff, though.

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06-26-2013, 08:47 AM
  #212
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Im glad somebody said it - all comes back to personnel again. EVERY team in the league wants to have the puck. Fact of the matter is, the Rangers just dont have many players that are good with the puck.
Puck possession isn't just about individual ability to hold onto the puck. Smart puck movement is also a large factor. Coaching can affect that by having the players use more of the ice, giving the player with the puck better passing options.

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06-26-2013, 09:53 AM
  #213
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Im glad somebody said it - all comes back to personnel again. EVERY team in the league wants to have the puck. Fact of the matter is, the Rangers just dont have many players that are good with the puck.
You are absolutely 100% correct.

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06-26-2013, 10:12 AM
  #214
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
Stepan, Brassard, Nash, Callahan (most of the time), Hagelin, (potentially) Kreider, Zuccarello, McDonagh, Girardi, Staal, Del Zotto, Stralman, Moore. They have plenty of players who are good with the puck. As we've said plenty of times, the bottom-6 is a black hole when it comes to that stuff, though.
I can argue with a few names on that list. And, again, it depends on what type of prism you're looking through when you mention these players being good at anything. Good for a 1st/2nd round loss team? Sure. Good for a championship team? Nah.

This team needs a ton of work in the offseason. I don't envy Vigneault's job - he needs to coax more offense out of a team thats not very offensively gifted all while not abandoning the things this team actually did well. Thats a tough balancing act - you seem to be convinced that a net-net gain is a foregone conclusion. Im highly skeptical.

But I'll see how things shake out this offseason and what the roster looks like - thats more important than any coach, and thats a position that will never change for me.

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06-26-2013, 10:30 AM
  #215
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The Rangers have a decent bunch of guys with puck handling skills - Nash, Brassard, Stepan, Zuccarello.

However, when it comes to the physical elements of puck possession, such as protecting and being hard on the puck, staying strong on one's skates, corralling the puck and shielding it with the body, board play, etc., the Rangers are deficient in that area. They could definitely use a Dubi-type player in that regard. In the playoffs, I felt like Boston exploited our weaknesses along the boards and inability to protect the puck.

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06-26-2013, 10:38 AM
  #216
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The Rangers have a decent bunch of guys with puck handling skills - Nash, Brassard, Stepan, Zuccarello.

However, when it comes to the physical elements of puck possession, such as protecting and being hard on the puck, staying strong on one's skates, corralling the puck and shielding it with the body, board play, etc., the Rangers are deficient in that area. They could definitely use a Dubi-type player in that regard. In the playoffs, I felt like Boston exploited our weaknesses along the boards and inability to protect the puck.
Agreed. The 4 guys you mentioned are pretty skillful with the puck. They also happen to be awfully soft.

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06-26-2013, 11:22 AM
  #217
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when a coach enforces a system that is the absolute antitheses of puck possession, you really can’t give an honest assessment of what player is strong or not strong on the puck.

The NYR handled the puck like a live grenade most nights, throwing it off their sticks as fast as they could. If they held on too long and deviated from the “system” they might make a “mistake” and face the wrath of the massive egomaniac.. and so we played Chicken $h1t hockey every night, flopped on the ice, etc...

Speaking of Dubinsky, how well did his career go “under Torts”. I remember Tortorella distinctively saying early on how he “couldn’t wait to get his hands on him”... lol he sure did...
he went from having 25-30g potential to 3/4th line numbers...

How’s that for player development? Nash trade might not have even had to happen if your boy Torts didn’t get to him...

ah but that’s just history now....

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06-26-2013, 11:32 AM
  #218
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Who was among the top 3 RW in hockey?

He wasn't.

If making moves was the sign of a good GM the guy on the Marlins would be the greatest of all time.

Now that Sather is rid of Torts the cancer, what will be the excuse if the Rangers don't get to the Cup finals? He has outstanding personnel, per your post, so if there are no finals this year I guess that will mean that AV stinks, like all those before him under Teflon Glen.

He wasn't? Says who? Self-proclaimed smart people on message boards?

Guy was 2nd All-NHL and 3rd in RW voting in two of the four years here. Look at what Columbus had to give up to get him for one season and two weeks.

Getting to the Cup finals isn't the only barometer. Building, developing a competitve team year in and year out, and being consistent while doing so is the mark of a good front office (not a great one, but a good one).

Sather has assembled a staff and made moves -- shrewed or not -- who put this organization in a position to challenge. On top of that, the core is extremely young, and Lundqvist has shown no signs of getting old, slowing down, breaking down. Franchise goalies in the mold of a hasek, Roy or Brodeur dont break down until their close to senior citizenship.

Again, all you surgeons bashing Sather? What is your solution?

Answer the question.

What GM out there will do a better job with the resources available? Guys who have succeeded elsewhere fall flat on their faces here. This isn't news. One GM/coach tandem was able to pull it off is almostt 100 years, and they bankrupted the franchise back to a decade of the dark ages to do so.

Friggin greedy fans with zero clue. Where's that Sather appreciation thread from last season? But no, let's fire him because his team with the 3rd best winning pct in the EC since the lockout lost in the 2nd round to a better team.

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06-26-2013, 11:41 AM
  #219
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With Vigneault in New York, we can expect Nash, who received five of his shift starts per game in the offensive zone the past two seasons, to get a bump up in his offensive zone starts. Let's say he gets the same amount each Sedin did under Vigneault: seven per game. If there are two starts he otherwise wouldn't have received, we could expect Nash to be on the ice for six or seven more even-strength goals than he was the past two seasons over 82 games. In that time, Nash has scored 41 percent of those goals himself and has registered assists on 33.3 percent, meaning an extra two goals and two assists in 2013-14. If the two starts are just switched from starts in the defensive or neutral zone, there would be virtually no impact in his personal boxcar stats.

If Tortorella sticks to his current system and the Sedins, who register points on two-thirds of the goals they are on the ice for, lose two offensive zone starts per game, that could mean a loss of two points between them over 82 games.

Vigneault's zone-matching philosophy is a sound one: Give your best offensive players an advantage by starting just a few feet from the opposing netminder. However, it appears to bloat merely shot volume, not goals and assists.
http://insider.espn.go.com/nhl/story...w-york-rangers

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06-26-2013, 11:50 AM
  #220
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He wasn't? Says who? Self-proclaimed smart people on message boards?

Guy was 2nd All-NHL and 3rd in RW voting in two of the four years here. Look at what Columbus had to give up to get him for one season and two weeks.

Getting to the Cup finals isn't the only barometer. Building, developing a competitve team year in and year out, and being consistent while doing so is the mark of a good front office (not a great one, but a good one).

Sather has assembled a staff and made moves -- shrewed or not -- who put this organization in a position to challenge. On top of that, the core is extremely young, and Lundqvist has shown no signs of getting old, slowing down, breaking down. Franchise goalies in the mold of a hasek, Roy or Brodeur dont break down until their close to senior citizenship.

Again, all you surgeons bashing Sather? What is your solution?

Answer the question.

What GM out there will do a better job with the resources available? Guys who have succeeded elsewhere fall flat on their faces here. This isn't news. One GM/coach tandem was able to pull it off is almostt 100 years, and they bankrupted the franchise back to a decade of the dark ages to do so.

Friggin greedy fans with zero clue. Where's that Sather appreciation thread from last season? But no, let's fire him because his team with the 3rd best winning pct in the EC since the lockout lost in the 2nd round to a better team.
Bro, we have to trade Lundqvist and blow up the team. Tank and collect those top 3 draft picks, cause that's the only way to win!

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06-26-2013, 11:52 AM
  #221
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Vigneault's zone-matching philosophy is a sound one: Give your best offensive players an advantage by starting just a few feet from the opposing netminder. However, it appears to bloat merely shot volume, not goals and assists.
Daniel Sedin won the Art Ross starting a league-leading 74.5% of his shifts in the offensive zone so I'm not sure how true that is.

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06-26-2013, 12:07 PM
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He wasn't? Says who? Self-proclaimed smart people on message boards?

Guy was 2nd All-NHL and 3rd in RW voting in two of the four years here. Look at what Columbus had to give up to get him for one season and two weeks.

Getting to the Cup finals isn't the only barometer. Building, developing a competitve team year in and year out, and being consistent while doing so is the mark of a good front office (not a great one, but a good one).

Sather has assembled a staff and made moves -- shrewed or not -- who put this organization in a position to challenge. On top of that, the core is extremely young, and Lundqvist has shown no signs of getting old, slowing down, breaking down. Franchise goalies in the mold of a hasek, Roy or Brodeur dont break down until their close to senior citizenship.

Again, all you surgeons bashing Sather? What is your solution?

Answer the question.


What GM out there will do a better job with the resources available? Guys who have succeeded elsewhere fall flat on their faces here. This isn't news. One GM/coach tandem was able to pull it off is almostt 100 years, and they bankrupted the franchise back to a decade of the dark ages to do so.

Friggin greedy fans with zero clue. Where's that Sather appreciation thread from last season? But no, let's fire him because his team with the 3rd best winning pct in the EC since the lockout lost in the 2nd round to a better team.
don't hold your breath... it won't be coming soon...

brilliant job. i appreciate you reasonable attitude and resignation to the good and bad of the franchise you follow. You have a very balanced mindset...

much like me...

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06-26-2013, 12:21 PM
  #223
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Sather is bad, but it could be worse.

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06-26-2013, 12:28 PM
  #224
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Again, all you surgeons bashing Sather? What is your solution?
Anyone else.

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06-26-2013, 12:35 PM
  #225
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Originally Posted by GWOW View Post
He wasn't? Says who? Self-proclaimed smart people on message boards?

Guy was 2nd All-NHL and 3rd in RW voting in two of the four years here. Look at what Columbus had to give up to get him for one season and two weeks.

Getting to the Cup finals isn't the only barometer. Building, developing a competitve team year in and year out, and being consistent while doing so is the mark of a good front office (not a great one, but a good one).

Sather has assembled a staff and made moves -- shrewed or not -- who put this organization in a position to challenge. On top of that, the core is extremely young, and Lundqvist has shown no signs of getting old, slowing down, breaking down. Franchise goalies in the mold of a hasek, Roy or Brodeur dont break down until their close to senior citizenship.

Again, all you surgeons bashing Sather? What is your solution?

Answer the question.

What GM out there will do a better job with the resources available? Guys who have succeeded elsewhere fall flat on their faces here. This isn't news. One GM/coach tandem was able to pull it off is almostt 100 years, and they bankrupted the franchise back to a decade of the dark ages to do so.

Friggin greedy fans with zero clue. Where's that Sather appreciation thread from last season? But no, let's fire him because his team with the 3rd best winning pct in the EC since the lockout lost in the 2nd round to a better team.
The team has to have more depth. The Nash trade was nice but Glen did an awful job filling out the depth of the team. We had a useless JT Miller playing significant minutes because of a lack of depth. We banked on Chris Kreider stepping into the top 6 because of a lack of depth. The Rangers had to trade Gaborik just to make up for the lack of depth.

The one thing that I find hilarious is that people blame Torts for "forcing Gaborik to play left wing." Are you kidding me? Sather traded for a right wing even though the Rangers already had two top six right wingers. Was was Torts supposed to do, play the captain on the third line?

The Rangers are not a deep team. I see some fans slotting Kreider onto the first line for next season, that's the same mistake that was made last season. I see a lot of fans putting Miller on the third line. That was a problem last season. Then I see people with Lindberg and Fast in the lineup. If that's the case this team isn't going to be good. You can't bank on rookies like that.

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