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Round 2, Vote 2 (HFNYR Top NYR Defensemen)

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Old
06-24-2013, 01:08 PM
  #1
Crease
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Round 2, Vote 2 (HFNYR Top NYR Defensemen)

Before we begin, just a recap on how Round 2, Vote 2 will operate:

Round 2 Vote 2
  • The remaining 5 players from Round 2 Vote 1 will be combined with the next 5 ranked players from the aggregate list
  • Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
  • Voters will rank their top 8 of the available defensemen
  • The top 5 vote getters will be added to the final list in order.

These might be tweaked to allow longer or shorter debating periods depending on how the process moves along.

Additionally, there are a couple guidelines we'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:
  • Please try to stay on-topic in the thread
  • Please remember that this is a debate on opinions and there is no right or wrong. Please try to avoid words like "stupid" "dumb" "wrong" "sophistry" etc. when debating.
  • Please treat other debaters with respect
  • Please don't be a wallflower. All eligible voters are VERY HIGHLY encouraged to be active participants in the debate.
  • Please maintain an open mind. The purpose of the debate is to convince others that your views are more valid. If nobody is willing to accept their opinions as flexible there really is no point in debating.

Eliglible Voters (7):
bernmeister, Chief, Crease, Greg02, mike14, Ratelleitlikeitis, Richter Scale

All posters are encouraged to participate in the debates and discussions, but only those listed above will be eligible for the final votes. Eligible voters submitted a ranked list of 20 defensemen before the deadline specified in the preliminary discussion thread.

Finanly, I want to say thank you for an excellent job with Round 2, Vote 1. The results are stickied. Comments are welcome. We are in the homestretch of this project.


Last edited by Crease: 06-24-2013 at 03:54 PM.
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06-24-2013, 01:11 PM
  #2
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Vote 2 discussion will begin now and will run through Sunday 6/30. Any extension to this time frame will be announced prior to the deadline. Votes must be submitted no later than Midnight on Sunday 6/30. THESE DEADLINES ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE SO PLEASE READ THROUGH THE ENTIRE THREAD.

Please PM votes to me, beginning on Thursday 6/27. I will be sending out confirmations when I receive ballots from the voters. Any voter who does not get a confirmation within 24 hours of submitting a ballot should assume I never received it and should either resubmit it or contact me to arrange a different method to submit the ballots.

PLEASE NOTE THAT YOU WILL VOTE FOR YOUR TOP 7 OUT OF THE POOL OF ELIGIBLE PLAYERS.

Vote 2 will be for places 6 through 10 on the Top 10 list.

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:

Barry Beck
Bill Gadsby
Ron Greschner
Ott Heller
Dave Maloney
Jim Neilson
James Patrick
Babe Pratt
Earl Seibert
Rod Seiling


Last edited by Crease: 06-24-2013 at 03:54 PM.
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06-24-2013, 07:35 PM
  #3
bernmeister
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I am editing this post as I originally focused on just 5 selections.
However, while Crease in the above post notes:

Quote:
Vote 2 will be for places 6 through 10 on the Top 10 list.
He does prior direct:
Quote:
PLEASE NOTE THAT YOU WILL VOTE FOR YOUR TOP 7 OUT OF THE POOL OF ELIGIBLE PLAYERS.
(emphasis added).

Thus we should be thinking in terms of 7, not 5 selections.

So I'll again take a crack at a preliminary list of 6-10 + 2 as instructed....

again, preliminary list:

6 Bill Gadsby
7 Earl Seibert
8 Ott Heller
9 /Babe Pratt
10 Jim Neilson

11 Barry Beck
12 James Patrick


do not make the cut:
Ron Greschner
Dave Maloney
Rod Seiling

thoughts?


Last edited by bernmeister: 06-25-2013 at 01:29 PM. Reason: correction to comply fully with directions
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06-24-2013, 07:40 PM
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I've seen video of Greschner. He was solid. But top 10 in franchise history? The raw numbers are there but I get the impression he was a bit of a compiler. Anyone have him in their top 10?

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06-24-2013, 07:42 PM
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Chief will, but I think he's going heavy longevity.

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06-24-2013, 07:52 PM
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I'd like to hear Chief's case for Heller and Pratt again. Based on his last post in the Vote 1 thread he would have them 1 and 2 this vote.

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06-24-2013, 07:56 PM
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I had Gresch outside in my initial list but bumped him into the top 10 for the 2nd round at the expense of Neilson, mainly due to longevity which I rank highly. On reflection, I'm not all that comfortable with my decision, but I'm not sure how far down Gresch should drop, and for who.

I have Heller over Seibert, but it's a very close run thing and again, it comes down to longevity.

My thoughts right now are:
Gadsby
Heller
Seibert
Pratt
Gresch

With Neilson at 11, but those final three are very fluid

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06-25-2013, 09:40 AM
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BARRY BECK
Tenure: 1979-1986 (7 seasons)
All-Star Voting: 6, 8, 9, 17
Adjusted Stats: 415GP, 53G 137A 190P
Stanley Cup Finals: No Appearances


BILL GADSBY
Tenure: 1954-1961 (7 years)
All-Star Voting: 2, 2, 2, 4, 8, 13
Adjusted Stats: 457 GP, 68G 258A 326P
Stanley Cup Finals: No Appearances


RON GRESCHNER
Tenure: 1974-1990 (16 seasons)
All-Star Voting: 17, 20, 24
Adjusted Stats: 982GP, 146G 358A 504P
Stanley Cup Finals: 1978


OTT HELLER
Tenure: 1931-1946 (14 years)
All-Star Voting: 4, 5, 6, 7, 10
Adjusted Stats: 647 GP, 79G 299A 373P
Stanley Cup Finals: 1932, 1933, 1937, 1940


DAVE MALONEY
Tenure: 1974-1985 (10+ seasons)
All-Star Voting: 16
Adjusted Stats: 605GP, 55G 183A 238P
Stanley Cup Finals: 1979


JIM NEILSON
Tenure: 1962-1974 (12 seasons)
All-Star Voting: 4, 6, 6, 6, 6, 9, 9, 14, 14, 14
Adjusted Stats: 810GP, 60G 247A 307P
Stanley Cup Finals: 1972


JAMES PATRICK
Tenure: 1983-1994 (10+ seasons)
All-Star Voting: None
Adjusted Stats: 671GP, 86G 306A 392P
Stanley Cup Finals: No Appearances


BABE PRATT
Tenure: 1935-1942 (7+ years)
All-Star Voting: 5, 7, 9
Adjusted Stats: 305 GP, 41G 167A 208P
Stanley Cup Finals: 1937, 1940


EARL SEIBERT
Tenure: 1931-1935 (4+ seasons)
All-Star Voting: 2, 4, 7, 10
Adjusted Stats: 204 GP, 47G 94A 141P
Stanley Cup Finals: 1932, 1933


ROD SEILING
Tenure: 1963-1975 (10+ seasons)
All-Star Voting: 7, 9, 10, 17
Adjusted Stats: 644 GP, 48G 198A 246P
Stanley Cup Finals: 1972


Last edited by Crease: 06-25-2013 at 12:10 PM.
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06-25-2013, 09:43 AM
  #9
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Seibert is the Gretzky/O'Connor of this round. Short but explosive career with the Rangers. Very high peak. Could make a case for him to be included or excluded in the top 5 of this round.

Also starting to think I had Ott Heller way too low.

Beck, Maloney, and Patrick aren't doing anything for me.

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06-25-2013, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crease View Post
I've seen video of Greschner. He was solid. But top 10 in franchise history? The raw numbers are there but I get the impression he was a bit of a compiler. Anyone have him in their top 10?
Lot of years he was like Delzotto defensively and positionly

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06-25-2013, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mio41 View Post
Lot of years he was like Delzotto defensively and positionly
Did his offense make up for his shortcomings in other areas of the game?

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06-25-2013, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crease View Post
Did his offense make up for his shortcomings in other areas of the game?
He had a very good offensive upside, he played center for a few years also

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06-25-2013, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crease View Post
Did his offense make up for his shortcomings in other areas of the game?
He would not have stuck around for 16 seasons if it didn't. I've been swamped at work lately but will post more on Greschner later today. He was never the top defenseman in the league but he was so fluid and agile as a skater, he would weave and dart around and through players as good as anyone I can remember. The game slowed down when he had the puck on his stick.

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06-25-2013, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chief View Post
He would not have stuck around for 16 seasons if it didn't. I've been swamped at work lately but will post more on Greschner later today. He was never the top defenseman in the league but he was so fluid and agile as a skater, he would weave and dart around and through players as good as anyone I can remember. The game slowed down when he had the puck on his stick.
Quote:
but he was so fluid and agile as a skater, he would weave and dart around and through players as good as anyone I can remember.
To a lesser extent, yeah, I buy that, but to the extent claimed, I don't think anyone would confuse him with Rutsolainen or McEwen as to enough speed to to blow by guys.

However, you are right, he was very fluid.

Quote:
The game slowed down when he had the puck on his stick
True.

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06-25-2013, 02:02 PM
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I agree with bern that he wasn't as fast as some of those other players...which made his ability to do what he did more surprising.

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06-25-2013, 02:03 PM
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For those that saw both Greschner and Neilson, how do they compare? Nelson's postseason All-Star voting record is much more impressive, but he didn't have Greschner's offensive game. Gives me the impression that Neilson was much steadier on the back end, and was just better overall.


Last edited by Crease: 06-25-2013 at 02:10 PM.
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06-25-2013, 02:12 PM
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Was Neilson the one that the garden fans booed mercilessly?

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06-25-2013, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg02 View Post
Was Neilson the one that the garden fans booed mercilessly?
Are you thinking of Seiling?

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06-25-2013, 02:20 PM
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Yeah, you're right; I was.

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06-26-2013, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crease View Post
For those that saw both Greschner and Neilson, how do they compare? Nelson's postseason All-Star voting record is much more impressive, but he didn't have Greschner's offensive game. Gives me the impression that Neilson was much steadier on the back end, and was just better overall.
Gresch was not a slouch, but he relied on stick check and some body technique.
Nielson was a mini rock, not to create impression he was a Park or Stevens or McSorley, but a solid guy, maybe a Buekeboom lite is closest. No bursts of speed, just steady, not appreciably fast, but enough to do the job.

Neils was the more pure D, better at clearing crease, taking the man; Gresch better playmaker and stronger in open ice.

Hope that helped.

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06-26-2013, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg02 View Post
Yeah, you're right; I was.
confirmed: Seiling

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06-26-2013, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
confirmed: Seiling
Neilson was booed too

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06-26-2013, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mio41 View Post
Neilson was booed too
You're right, on occasion he was.
But I think he was just not given the same degree of love as some of the teammates.

Seiling, on the other hand, while appreciated for being a human vacuum cleaner on pucks, was scorned otherwise, including to the fact he had no offensive game except really basic passes.

Some of his shots
were
sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry
s l o w

it was amazing he ever scored at all.

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06-26-2013, 04:33 PM
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Thinking outloud to stimulate the discussion. Ballots can be sent in starting tomorrow, and I won't be around much this weekend so I want to have my own list finalized by Friday.

Tier 1: Gadsby, Heller (alphabetical)
Tier 2: Neilson, Pratt (alphabetical)
Tier 3: Greschner, Seibert, Seiling (alphabetical)

OUT: Beck, Patrick, Maloney

Anyone see any major issues with this? I'm having a lot of trouble deciding what to do with Greschner and Seibert.

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06-26-2013, 07:02 PM
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Mio41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
You're right, on occasion he was.
But I think he was just not given the same degree of love as some of the teammates.

Seiling, on the other hand, while appreciated for being a human vacuum cleaner on pucks, was scorned otherwise, including to the fact he had no offensive game except really basic passes.

Some of his shots
were
sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry
s l o w

it was amazing he ever scored at all.
Well he gave Hatfield 2 perfect passes for goals 49 and 50

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