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Bob Gainey attempted to trade up at '03 Draft to select Marc-Andre Fleury

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Old
06-26-2013, 11:35 AM
  #101
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Originally Posted by charlie View Post
Franchise goalies don't ask to be traded!
I like how you make up your own rules on what a franchise goalie is. Luongo Lundqvist Quick Hasek Roy Brodeur and Kipprusoff are ALL franchise goalies. You must be smoking something really potent to say that franchise goalies are only those who win multiple cups don't ask to be traded and don't play on different teams.

By your logic Wayne Gretzkey was not a franchise player because he played on different teams. Mark Messier, Jagr, Gordie Howe, I can go on forever. Your logic is majorly skewed

But I am glad we didn't draft Bucky Larson look alike Marc-Andre Fleury

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06-26-2013, 11:41 AM
  #102
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I love how this turned into a Price thread. Because we don't have enough of those.
Yup leave it to Jack Tod... I mean Agnostic to get it going.
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It's not the picks that were related, but the assessment of talent. Seeing that Gainey attempted to acquire Fleury in hindsight doesn't look good, but at the time Fleury was highly touted. Similar to how the picking of Subban was highly question on this board at the time, but in hindsight was a home run.

Being upset with Gainey for attempting to acquire the first overall selected player is like getting mad at Bergevin in the future for having attempted to acquire (for argument sakes) Nathan Mackinnon or Seth Jones both of whom right now are labeled as can't miss prospects.
I'm sure the French Canadian angle had a lot to do with it too. Gainey did his best to get a French born star here. And to be fair to him a lot of folks thought that Fleury was the real deal. And to be doubly fair, Fleury had some great runs in Pittsburgh. It's not like this guy was a total bust. He went to back to back finals and won a cup after all.
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How many people are trashing Gainey in this thread, but were applauding him back in the day?
I was with Gainey for taking us out of the wilderness. He built through the draft which I also liked. But he didn't rebuild aggressively enough and it's hurt us. Then (and I think his personal tragedy comes into play here) he kind of lost his way and started making stupid moves.

The apex of dumb was the 'retooling' with Gomez, Gionta and Cammy.... just an absolute disastrous move that ensured us mediocrity and pushed the rebuild out even further. If we'd just been patient and rebuilt the right way we'd be so much further ahead now.
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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
How many people are trashing Price in this thread who will be back to applauding him next year? Same ol same ol...
We better hope he goes back to being himself because if he plays like he did at the end of the year this team is ****ed.
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So what's next? Gainey attempting to trade his first three picks in 2007 in order to get Thomas Hickey at 4?
Never could understand that pick from LA...
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
I hated him at first, but at the time I didn't know much about hockey in general. Then I started defending him because I saw upward progression and lots of good draft picks. Then he did publicized his smurf fetish and I played along but in hindsight I think he's one of the worst GMs since the lockout. An absolute travesty.

Mea culpa.
You've come a long way. You used to blindly defend things but you've come around. Welcome to the dark side.
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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
It's pretty well documented that it was either Price or Staal at #5 for the Habs. No reason to think we would have deviated from that plan and drafted Kopitar.
People who keep talking about Kopitar are cherrypicking a guy who went 5 picks later. Price was a great pick no matter how you slice it. Cherrypicking later guys doesn't make sense in any draft.

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06-26-2013, 11:47 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Yup leave it to Jack Tod... I mean Agnostic to get it going.

I'm sure the French Canadian angle had a lot to do with it too. Gainey did his best to get a French born star here. And to be fair to him a lot of folks thought that Fleury was the real deal. And to be doubly fair, Fleury had some great runs in Pittsburgh. It's not like this guy was a total bust. He went to back to back finals and won a cup after all.

I was with Gainey for taking us out of the wilderness. He built through the draft which I also liked. But he didn't rebuild aggressively enough and it's hurt us. Then (and I think his personal tragedy comes into play here) he kind of lost his way and started making stupid moves.

The apex of dumb was the 'retooling' with Gomez, Gionta and Cammy.... just an absolute disastrous move that ensured us mediocrity and pushed the rebuild out even further. If we'd just been patient and rebuilt the right way we'd be so much further ahead now.

We better hope he goes back to being himself because if he plays like he did at the end of the year this team is ****ed.

Never could understand that pick from LA...

You've come a long way. You used to blindly defend things but you've come around. Welcome to the dark side.

People who keep talking about Kopitar are cherrypicking a guy who went 5 picks later. Price was a great pick no matter how you slice it. Cherrypicking later guys doesn't make sense in any draft.
I only cherrypick in 1 year: 2003. Although Kostitsyn was highly touted and supposed to go top 5, his development wasn't great as a youngster/junior. Played reserved minutes in the previous "KHL" and only played really great against his own age group in an International tournament. I'm sorry, but I would rather had we taken Getzlaf over Kostitsyn, highly touted or not. I wished somebody had taken him before us so we would go with TT's speculated wanting of Getzlaf. Wow would we be a different team right now.

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06-26-2013, 11:54 AM
  #104
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I only cherrypick in 1 year: 2003. Although Kostitsyn was highly touted and supposed to go top 5, his development wasn't great as a youngster/junior. Played reserved minutes in the previous "KHL" and only played really great against his own age group in an International tournament. I'm sorry, but I would rather had we taken Getzlaf over Kostitsyn, highly touted or not. I wished somebody had taken him before us so we would go with TT's speculated wanting of Getzlaf. Wow would we be a different team right now.
Wishing you drafted another player isn't the same as blaming your scouting group for not taking him. It's fine to wish that you took Mark Messier in the third round but you can't blame your scouts for not seeing that he'd be a superstar.

2003 was a crazy draft. Getzlaff went 24th or something like that... Obviously he wasn't a blue chip guy in most scout's eyes. You can't blame Timmins for taking AK over him. Esp when that guy was drafted 14 picks later.

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06-26-2013, 01:00 PM
  #105
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Could be true.

But, boy Milbury's was pissed yesterday on the show at McGuire.

Anyhow, Kostitsyn 10th overall haha... ahh it sucks but nothing happens for a reason. Without Kostitsyn, we would have never had Sergei Kostitsyn.
or the darkest day in habs history. It was a t.v. soap in hab land that year, and it was glorious!!

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06-26-2013, 01:08 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Wishing you drafted another player isn't the same as blaming your scouting group for not taking him. It's fine to wish that you took Mark Messier in the third round but you can't blame your scouts for not seeing that he'd be a superstar.

2003 was a crazy draft. Getzlaff went 24th or something like that... Obviously he wasn't a blue chip guy in most scout's eyes. You can't blame Timmins for taking AK over him. Esp when that guy was drafted 14 picks later.
Firstly, he went 19th.

Secondly, it's highly speculated that TT wanted Getzlaf, but the rest of the scouting staff were high on AK because he was apparently highly touted (supposed to go top 5) but fell to them because of Epilepsy issues.

He was drafted 9 picks after him. I'm not really upset because he was highly touted (AK) but I'm just really pissed at why he was highly touted...

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06-26-2013, 01:56 PM
  #107
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Fleury was indeed seen highly, yet tons of mock drafts had Staal before him. The fact that we needed all these years a big centerman and Gainey would have pass on Staal says it all.....Also, one day, people will realize that having a franco goalie is NOT good in this city. And as you know, I am all for having WAY more francos in any position on this team....BUT goalie. We kill our goalies here and when they are dead, we ressuscitate them to kill them again. Add the goalie being franco and it's X1000. Reason why you do NOT pick Fucale in the 1st round to get the hype going. At worst, draft your franco goalies like Bibeau starting at 3rd round when the hype won't be as much and you'll have time to groom him. But moving up to grab Fleury at #1 would have been plain stupid. Fleury shows he's not able to to deal with the pressure in Pittsburgh...imagine Montreal.....And we would have passed up on Staal? Yep...that would have been a solid move....Sports Illustrated had Staal going 1st....and had the Habs take Zach Parise....with Kosty going 13th.

Hey, for the record...go easy on me today. Just got "temporarily fired" this morning due to the "collateral damage" in the enginerring industry.....

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06-26-2013, 01:59 PM
  #108
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Hey, for the record...go easy on me today. Just got "temporarily fired" this morning due to the "collateral damage" in the enginerring industry.....
Sorry to hear WS. Keep your head up though, as "temporarily" is a lot better than what it could have been. Best of luck with everything!

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06-26-2013, 02:04 PM
  #109
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Sorry to hear WS. Keep your head up though, as "temporarily" is a lot better than what it could have been. Best of luck with everything!
Thanks man. Yeah...minimum of 4 weeks but in this industry...you never know, could be much longer though I won't wait that long...Teams could now hire me as scout any day now....I am available....

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06-26-2013, 02:07 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Fleury was indeed seen highly, yet tons of mock drafts had Staal before him. The fact that we needed all these years a big centerman and Gainey would have pass on Staal says it all.....Also, one day, people will realize that having a franco goalie is NOT good in this city. And as you know, I am all for having WAY more francos in any position on this team....BUT goalie. We kill our goalies here and when they are dead, we ressuscitate them to kill them again. Add the goalie being franco and it's X1000. Reason why you do NOT pick Fucale in the 1st round to get the hype going. At worst, draft your franco goalies like Bibeau starting at 3rd round when the hype won't be as much and you'll have time to groom him. But moving up to grab Fleury at #1 would have been plain stupid. Fleury shows he's not able to to deal with the pressure in Pittsburgh...imagine Montreal.....And we would have passed up on Staal? Yep...that would have been a solid move....Sports Illustrated had Staal going 1st....and had the Habs take Zach Parise....with Kosty going 13th.

Hey, for the record...go easy on me today. Just got "temporarily fired" this morning due to the "collateral damage" in the enginerring industry.....
You haven't been fired, you've become a free agent.

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06-26-2013, 02:09 PM
  #111
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You haven't been fired, you've become a free agent.
Thanks man. Needed that. Great way of seeing it.

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06-26-2013, 02:19 PM
  #112
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Sorry guys, didn't want to hijacked the thread with my news. Just PM me if you want to talk to me directly but let's keep the subject on......Bashing Bob is always fun...

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06-26-2013, 03:20 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Fleury was indeed seen highly, yet tons of mock drafts had Staal before him. The fact that we needed all these years a big centerman and Gainey would have pass on Staal says it all.....Also, one day, people will realize that having a franco goalie is NOT good in this city. And as you know, I am all for having WAY more francos in any position on this team....BUT goalie. We kill our goalies here and when they are dead, we ressuscitate them to kill them again. Add the goalie being franco and it's X1000. Reason why you do NOT pick Fucale in the 1st round to get the hype going. At worst, draft your franco goalies like Bibeau starting at 3rd round when the hype won't be as much and you'll have time to groom him. But moving up to grab Fleury at #1 would have been plain stupid. Fleury shows he's not able to to deal with the pressure in Pittsburgh...imagine Montreal.....And we would have passed up on Staal? Yep...that would have been a solid move....Sports Illustrated had Staal going 1st....and had the Habs take Zach Parise....with Kosty going 13th.

Hey, for the record...go easy on me today. Just got "temporarily fired" this morning due to the "collateral damage" in the enginerring industry.....
A good friend of mine knows Philippe Desrosiers and he talked to his father about the draft and you know, how he was playing this year with Rimouski. In short, the father told my friend that the Habs talked to him (probably every team talked to him...) and my first reaction was just like yours: no ****ing way I want a french goalie in Montreal. This is the last thing I want.

Sorry to hear about what happened to you this morning. Good luck man.


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06-26-2013, 03:39 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Fleury was indeed seen highly, yet tons of mock drafts had Staal before him. The fact that we needed all these years a big centerman and Gainey would have pass on Staal says it all.....Also, one day, people will realize that having a franco goalie is NOT good in this city. And as you know, I am all for having WAY more francos in any position on this team....BUT goalie. We kill our goalies here and when they are dead, we ressuscitate them to kill them again. Add the goalie being franco and it's X1000. Reason why you do NOT pick Fucale in the 1st round to get the hype going. At worst, draft your franco goalies like Bibeau starting at 3rd round when the hype won't be as much and you'll have time to groom him. But moving up to grab Fleury at #1 would have been plain stupid. Fleury shows he's not able to to deal with the pressure in Pittsburgh...imagine Montreal.....And we would have passed up on Staal? Yep...that would have been a solid move....Sports Illustrated had Staal going 1st....and had the Habs take Zach Parise....with Kosty going 13th.

Hey, for the record...go easy on me today. Just got "temporarily fired" this morning due to the "collateral damage" in the enginerring industry.....
Sucks man. You seem like a smart enough guy that I think you'll "be back on your feet" so to speak in no time.

Back to topic, I really liked this post (ironically since we've disagreed a lot over the past months, WS about many things).

First, it helps me provide evidence on why i think AK went too high at 10th, let alone why he was touted to go top 5. But that's just the beginning.

The fact is I almost 100% agree about the franco goalie thing as it has 100% made things unbearable for us as fans and the team in general when dealing with the media and everything. Only goalie that has succeeded in delivering lately was Saint Patrick, and we all know how that turned out. Point is, almost 100% of the time having that franco goalie in net, not going to end well for them or us. Patrick was the .01% that could thrive and deliver (which he did).

Also, the fact that he would have passed on Staal for Fleury is just typical Gainey. Going after the french guy to pass on real pressing needs like a big power forward centre that isn't easily taken off the puck and his tremendous skill.

Anyways this whole thread is about a hypothetical that never happened, so what's the purpose of discussing it. Oh right...to bash on BG

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06-26-2013, 03:43 PM
  #115
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A good friend of mine knows Philippe Desrosiers and he talked to his father about the draft and you know, how he was playing this year with Rimouski. In short, the father told my friend that the Habs talked to him (probably every team talked to him...) and my first reaction was just like yours: no ****ing way I want a french goalie in Montreal. This is the last thing I want.

Sorry to hear about what happened to you this morning. Good luck man.
Well Desrosiers in the 3rd.....wouldn't hate it. Personnally, a 4th for him would have been more appropriate but with his U-18, he would have surely not be available. But the general feeling is that I will always be hesitant to go franco in net. Always.

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Anyways this whole thread is about a hypothetical that never happened, so what's the purpose of discussing it. Oh right...to bash on BG
But it is a fun sport....

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06-26-2013, 06:21 PM
  #116
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Bob wanted the 1st overall player. Bash him! The fact he didn't pay the price says something no?

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06-26-2013, 06:55 PM
  #117
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Bob wanted the 1st overall player. Bash him! The fact he didn't pay the price says something no?
You're using way too much logic for this board!

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06-26-2013, 06:57 PM
  #118
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Fleury was rushed to the NHL, and on a very bad team at that. Who knows what would have happened if the organization took its time with him.

Regardless, he still has two Cup appearances with one win, which is more than any Habs goalie since Roy.
It's true. Who knows how it would've turned out? For all we know, in some parallel universe Kostitsyn is the reigning Rocket Richard trophy winner with Pittsburgh, and Fleury is the face of the Habs franchise.

I guess my point is that it would be more interesting to look past the player and discuss the philosophy. It seems like a reasonable inference that Gainey believed in building from the net outwards. Also, it confirms to me that he actively tried to build the team with cornerstones at key positions, even through flambuoyant trades, despite what looks to have been a very cautious approach.

I just find the one-line groans about Gainey annoying. While he didn't turn the team into a Cup contender, except briefly, in year 4 of his 5 year plan, his overall record sits fine by me. The team was in better shape overall when he left than it was when he took over. After several horrendous years, the Habs grew into a team that made the playoffs regularly and managed to win a few series.

The aspect that I find interesting about his tenure is that it is ultimately marked by the Gomez deal, which is really the only blockbuster-ish deal he pulled off. That was after 5 years of trying, though. Along the way, he tried to get Lecavalier, Iginla, Hossa, Sundin. He went asking about Keith and Sharp when they were nobodies. Why those attempts to land a cornerstone player (or replicate the Churla for Sydor steal when he was in Dallas) failed, who really knows.

Anyway, interesting little tidbit ten years later.

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06-26-2013, 07:11 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Fleury was indeed seen highly, yet tons of mock drafts had Staal before him. The fact that we needed all these years a big centerman and Gainey would have pass on Staal says it all.....Also, one day, people will realize that having a franco goalie is NOT good in this city. And as you know, I am all for having WAY more francos in any position on this team....BUT goalie. We kill our goalies here and when they are dead, we ressuscitate them to kill them again. Add the goalie being franco and it's X1000. Reason why you do NOT pick Fucale in the 1st round to get the hype going. At worst, draft your franco goalies like Bibeau starting at 3rd round when the hype won't be as much and you'll have time to groom him. But moving up to grab Fleury at #1 would have been plain stupid. Fleury shows he's not able to to deal with the pressure in Pittsburgh...imagine Montreal.....And we would have passed up on Staal? Yep...that would have been a solid move....Sports Illustrated had Staal going 1st....and had the Habs take Zach Parise....with Kosty going 13th.

Hey, for the record...go easy on me today. Just got "temporarily fired" this morning due to the "collateral damage" in the enginerring industry.....
Fair point, but do we know that Gainey tried to get the 1st overall? I mean, maybe he tried to trade up to draft Fleury thinking that he would have been available at 3rd or 4th or somewhere after Staal and Horton (who I recall was the consensus #1) were taken.

Anyway, I didn't watch the TSN special so I really have no idea. If he tried to trade up and in doing so would have passed on Staal, then I hope that the parallel universe that has Fleury with the Habs looks awfully nice from a Habs fan's perspective, for the sake of Gainey, whose legacy I feel alone in defending on these boards.

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06-26-2013, 07:19 PM
  #120
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Pretty unfair to single out Gainey when virtually everyone thought of Fleury as a franchise goalie.

It would be like the Habs trading up this year to draft MacKinnon or Jones, only to see them bust (not that Fleury's a bust, but you get what I mean). Some things you can't predict.
Of course Fleury isn't a bust but in retrospect there were many other prospects who would have served the Penguins better. I think they would have won more than one Cup in the decade since that draft if they had drafted Eric Staal and picked up a goaltender either later in that same draft or or in another year.

As for Gainey, he was NOT the GM at the 2003 draft. He came on board AFTER that draft and had no role in it. He made many mistakes but that was not one of them.

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06-26-2013, 07:29 PM
  #121
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Bob Gainey could upsize his fries at McDonalds and the entire empire would go out of business. That's the Gainey touch.

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06-26-2013, 07:29 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Fleury was indeed seen highly, yet tons of mock drafts had Staal before him. The fact that we needed all these years a big centerman and Gainey would have pass on Staal says it all.....Also, one day, people will realize that having a franco goalie is NOT good in this city. And as you know, I am all for having WAY more francos in any position on this team....BUT goalie. We kill our goalies here and when they are dead, we ressuscitate them to kill them again. Add the goalie being franco and it's X1000. Reason why you do NOT pick Fucale in the 1st round to get the hype going. At worst, draft your franco goalies like Bibeau starting at 3rd round when the hype won't be as much and you'll have time to groom him. But moving up to grab Fleury at #1 would have been plain stupid. Fleury shows he's not able to to deal with the pressure in Pittsburgh...imagine Montreal.....And we would have passed up on Staal? Yep...that would have been a solid move....Sports Illustrated had Staal going 1st....and had the Habs take Zach Parise....with Kosty going 13th.

Hey, for the record...go easy on me today. Just got "temporarily fired" this morning due to the "collateral damage" in the enginerring industry.....
If we draft Fucale, Price is done, the craziness will really get to him.

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06-26-2013, 07:32 PM
  #123
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If we draft Fucale, Price is done, the craziness will really get to him.
And then we'd ruin Fucale.


Would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad.

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06-26-2013, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
Of course Fleury isn't a bust but in retrospect there were many other prospects who would have served the Penguins better. I think they would have won more than one Cup in the decade since that draft if they had drafted Eric Staal and picked up a goaltender either later in that same draft or or in another year.

As for Gainey, he was NOT the GM at the 2003 draft. He came on board AFTER that draft and had no role in it. He made many mistakes but that was not one of them.
If the penguins had drafted Eric staal they could have missed out on malkin, crosby, staal, in subsequent drafts.

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06-26-2013, 07:34 PM
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Agnostic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
Of course Fleury isn't a bust but in retrospect there were many other prospects who would have served the Penguins better. I think they would have won more than one Cup in the decade since that draft if they had drafted Eric Staal and picked up a goaltender either later in that same draft or or in another year.

As for Gainey, he was NOT the GM at the 2003 draft. He came on board AFTER that draft and had no role in it. He made many mistakes but that was not one of them.
He most definitely was the GM at the 2003 draft. It was his first.

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