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Sather Speaks: Lack of Puck Possession Had "A lot to do" with Torts' firing

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06-26-2013, 12:45 PM
  #226
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
The risk is inherent, but necessary when what you're doing isn't working either.



More of a shooting gallery on Hank when the puck is in the defensive zone, but the puck should be in the defensive zone for less time. That's the point of talking about puck possession.

I disagree that McDonagh is the only one. Staal has shown glimpses of it. Del Zotto has been it, but was constantly reined in. Stralman has shown glimpses of it. I think, in general, our D is suited to play a puck possession game, even if they aren't racking up points. All have good stick skills. All are mobile. It's just a matter of reapplying their skills.



The implication of that is that it is a skill that can be developed. They spent zero time with that kind of thing, or other puck control skills, in practice, it seems like. That was actually a problem I identified in 2010-11 with the team. There is no reason at all why NHL players should be making so many poor passes, whether the skill level of the team is high or not compared to other NHL teams.

People need to practice constantly to maintain their abilities at a high level. This kind of thing is true for all activities involving skill. I'm a bass player (nominally at this point). I used to be a very, very good bass player. I haven't played regularly in at least a year. Can I pick up a bass and still play decently? Sure, but it's going to be sloppy, by my standards. In order to get back to where I was, I would need to play for an hour a day for a month and then I would need to play at least 3 hours per week in practice to maintain my chops.

NHL players are no different when it comes to puck control skills. It's really something I felt like they never worked on all that much in practice. All things were system oriented.
Our definition of puck possesson is a bit different.

View it as the ability to maintain control of the puck despite someone trying to get it from you. For example, in the Finals, Kane, Toews, Seabrook, Marchand, Lucic, and Bergeron were great at it.

I think Stepan is great at it and Callahan is pretty good. The rest of the fowards have not demonstrated tat enough. Mcdonagh is the only D that rarely loses battles. When you can win those battles you can find more open men to pass to.


Last edited by chosen: 06-26-2013 at 12:58 PM.
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06-26-2013, 12:52 PM
  #227
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He wasn't? Says who? Self-proclaimed smart people on message boards?

Guy was 2nd All-NHL and 3rd in RW voting in two of the four years here. Look at what Columbus had to give up to get him for one season and two weeks.

Getting to the Cup finals isn't the only barometer. Building, developing a competitve team year in and year out, and being consistent while doing so is the mark of a good front office (not a great one, but a good one).

Sather has assembled a staff and made moves -- shrewed or not -- who put this organization in a position to challenge. On top of that, the core is extremely young, and Lundqvist has shown no signs of getting old, slowing down, breaking down. Franchise goalies in the mold of a hasek, Roy or Brodeur dont break down until their close to senior citizenship.

Again, all you surgeons bashing Sather? What is your solution?

Answer the question.

What GM out there will do a better job with the resources available? Guys who have succeeded elsewhere fall flat on their faces here. This isn't news. One GM/coach tandem was able to pull it off is almostt 100 years, and they bankrupted the franchise back to a decade of the dark ages to do so.

Friggin greedy fans with zero clue. Where's that Sather appreciation thread from last season? But no, let's fire him because his team with the 3rd best winning pct in the EC since the lockout lost in the 2nd round to a better team.
Glad to hear that you don't consider yourself smart.

Torts had to be replaced because he had been here long enough without enough success. Apply that same formula to Teflon Glen and your argument becomes ludicrous and its your belief that GMs should be kept forever, no matter their miserable failings.

GMs are far more important to the team than coaches. Anyone who does not get this is missing the big picture.


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06-27-2013, 05:27 AM
  #228
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Glad to hear that you don't consider yourself smart.

Torts had to be replaced because he had been here long enough without enough success. Apply that same formula to Teflon Glen and your argument becomes ludicrous and its your belief that GMs should be kept forever, no matter their miserable failings.

GMs are far more important to the team than coaches. Anyone who does not get this is missing the big picture.

I'm not the one who thinks finishing top-3 in postseason all star voting doesnt make a guy top-3 at his position (twice no less). But nice how you avoided that part after I mentioned it.

You must be one of those "Ovechkin isnt the MVP of the league even though he won the Hart" type of fans.

And where did I say Sather should stay "forever"?

What do you want Sather to do? Trade for Toews? Crosby? Toews and Crosby? Trade Stepan and Kreider for Keith?

Again, the Sather bashing is based on the fact that the team hasnt reached the SCF. But let's ignore the fact that 75pct of the roster is under 28.



So let's try again:

1) If Sather goes, who replaces him?

2) What roster moves must Sather make to turn the Rangers into Cup contenders (which they were 12 months ago)?

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06-27-2013, 06:15 AM
  #229
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So let's try again:

1) If Sather goes, who replaces him?

2) What roster moves must Sather make to turn the Rangers into Cup contenders (which they were 12 months ago)?
1) Gorton

2) buyout beaver, lockup rfas on longterm deals, sign some depth pieces. unfortunately sather would probably buyout richards and sign some overpriced ufa though.

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06-27-2013, 07:03 AM
  #230
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The same guys who dont want Kreider, Stepan, Hagelin, McDonagh, Staal, Girardi, Callahan and Henrik traded are the same ones who bash Sather for not improving the roster. What kind of ****ed up **** it that?

Make up your ****ing minds. If the roster is as flawed as some of you make it out to be, then why the **** would you want to keep most of the guys Sather acquired?

If Sather sits still like in 2012, he gets hammered. If he trades for scoring help, he gives up too much. If he overpays for a UFA, he's hammered (like NYC doesnt overpay for talent in every friggin profession known to man)

If he doesn't sign the guy who plays like an all-star for the scrub Av's, he dropped the ball.

I mean people actually feel that the reason why the Rangers didnt get to the Cup was because Prust, Dubinsky and AA were let go. Prust was a hot mess on a walk year all of last season. He did nothing to warrant getting a new long-term deal and Dubinsky reverted to the skill set of a 10-year old.

I guess the TTP is laud and commend Sather on the days he drafts well, steals prospects, robs star talent from other teams for nothing, dumps salary and signs big ticket free agents everybody wants, but then trash him during the offseason.

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06-27-2013, 07:32 AM
  #231
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Originally Posted by Dactyl View Post
1) Gorton

2) buyout beaver, lockup rfas on longterm deals, sign some depth pieces. unfortunately sather would probably buyout richards and sign some overpriced ufa though.
Sather hired Gorton. Does he get any credit for that?

Buying out Richards may come back to bite them in the ass if Brassard struggles. That should be fun on these boards. Can't wait for the "We should have kept Richards" threads when/if Brassard vanishes and the fans complaing about lack of a center.

I mean, we have a Roszival appreciation thread. If that isn't a sign I don't know what is.

But then, I guess they can just blame it on Sather for not acquiring Ryan Getzlaf.

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06-27-2013, 08:01 AM
  #232
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Originally Posted by Dactyl View Post
1) Gorton

2) buyout beaver, lockup rfas on longterm deals, sign some depth pieces. unfortunately sather would probably buyout richards and sign some overpriced ufa though.
He hired Gorton. He hired Clark. He acquiesced significant responsibilities to competant staff. Wow! What a horrible manager of personnel!

The idea that Sather rode solo on the decisons to sign Gaborik and Richards, trade for Nash, trade for Clowe, sign Drury/Gomez etc is stupid.

They have these guys called scouts. Scouts go and scout, then report back to the staff.

name me the scout(s) who reported to Sather that Drury have hands like Stu Grimson, where Gomez would forget how to set up plays, where Richards would show up to camp lazy and disinterested.

Are they the same scouts who told him to get McDonagh? To ask for Moore and Brassard for Gaborik? To make Dubinsky the centerpiece of a Rick Nash deal?

You win some, you lose some. There were 22 GMs who by these boards standards had a miserable season. Thrown in Shero in there as well, and this guy supposedly built the next Oilers dynasty yet they havent won a game past the 2nd round since 2009.

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06-27-2013, 08:14 AM
  #233
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Anti Sather, Negative, baseless complainers, tank for picks, never happy, spoiled yankees fans: 0

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06-27-2013, 08:14 AM
  #234
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Originally Posted by GWOW View Post
The same guys who dont want Kreider, Stepan, Hagelin, McDonagh, Staal, Girardi, Callahan and Henrik traded are the same ones who bash Sather for not improving the roster. What kind of ****ed up **** it that?
Thats 8 guys. Theres 20 guys that dress every night. Do you need help with the math?

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06-27-2013, 08:48 AM
  #235
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Thats 8 guys. Theres 20 guys that dress every night. Do you need help with the math?
LOL That's awesome.

You wrote "that's 6 guys", said I sucked at math, and then changed it to 8 after you realized you miscounted.

Outstanding. You just can't catch a break.

Keep in mind I didnt include those real scrubs like Nash and Brassard -- the two guys who were the team MVP's as far as skaters are concerned for the regular and postseason, repsectively.

I'm assuming you want to keep those guys too, even though Reichmarschall Sather traded for them.

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06-27-2013, 09:01 AM
  #236
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LOL That's awesome.

You wrote "that's 6 guys", said I sucked at math, and then changed it to 8 after you realized you miscounted.

Outstanding. You just can't catch a break.

Keep in mind I didnt include those real scrubs like Nash and Brassard -- the two guys who were the team MVP's as far as skaters are concerned for the regular and postseason, repsectively.

I'm assuming you want to keep those guys too, even though Reichmarschall Sather traded for them.
I wrote 6 because I thought it was stupid to include Hagelin and Kreider in that bunch. But I had to get on to the rest of your post, which is even more ridiculous.

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06-27-2013, 09:09 AM
  #237
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He hired Gorton. He hired Clark. He acquiesced significant responsibilities to competant staff. Wow! What a horrible manager of personnel!

The idea that Sather rode solo on the decisons to sign Gaborik and Richards, trade for Nash, trade for Clowe, sign Drury/Gomez etc is stupid.

They have these guys called scouts. Scouts go and scout, then report back to the staff.

name me the scout(s) who reported to Sather that Drury have hands like Stu Grimson, where Gomez would forget how to set up plays, where Richards would show up to camp lazy and disinterested.

Are they the same scouts who told him to get McDonagh? To ask for Moore and Brassard for Gaborik? To make Dubinsky the centerpiece of a Rick Nash deal?

You win some, you lose some. There were 22 GMs who by these boards standards had a miserable season. Thrown in Shero in there as well, and this guy supposedly built the next Oilers dynasty yet they havent won a game past the 2nd round since 2009.
Is a president involved in every single decision the federal government makes? Does a CEO personally review every investment decision his company makes?

They don't. They can't. But they are tasked with constructing an organizational culture, and tasked with selecting and trusting staff members to carry out a successful vision. That's what leadership is. And if you have a decade long track record of haplessly treading water ultimately leadership needs to be accountable.

Rangers management has made some good moves, and some bad moves. But the amount of hypocrisy in Sather preaching accountability is laughable.

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06-27-2013, 09:10 AM
  #238
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Buying out Richards may come back to bite them in the ass if Brassard struggles. That should be fun on these boards. Can't wait for the "We should have kept Richards" threads when/if Brassard vanishes and the fans complaing about lack of a center.
Buying out Richards won't bite us in the ass because it is a financial decision, not a hockey decision. Not buying him out, however, may come back to bite us in the ass if we get stuck with his contract. How Richards and/or Brassard perform next year isn't relevant to the discussion.

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06-27-2013, 09:11 AM
  #239
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The thing is, I'm not a huge Sather fan. But I acknowledge that he became a good GM again, and helped make the Rangers relevant again. I dont blame GMs when teams lose in the postseason. It's the GM's job to build a team to get to the postseason and get there often. He's done that as good as anyone in the last 8 seasons.

Look at the team Shero assembled for Bylsma. Once you hit the playoffs, it's on the players and coaches.

The playoffs are too short a sample. If a team a GM assembles wins 50 games, then he's done his job. The Rangers didnt lose to the Devils because Ryan Carter outplayed Mike Rupp. They lost because Brodeur outplayed Lundqvist, and Deboer outcoached Torts.

Whatever happens, Sather has set the conditions for any new GM to keep the franchise competitive and challenge. The Rangers are young, relatively healthy and have depth where it matters. Fixing the bottom pair and the 4th line is hit or miss.

I really dont care about 2000-2004. Has nothing to do with the current state of the team. If you want to attribute no SCF appearance because he drafted Jessiman and Sanguinetti instead of Richards and Giroux, then be my guest. You would think the Lundqvist, Staal, Callahan and Stepan selections would put that BS to bed.

How many Sather threads is this where people complain and complain yet offer no solution outside of removing him.

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06-27-2013, 09:17 AM
  #240
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How many Sather threads is this where people complain and complain yet offer no solution outside of removing him.
13 years worth, and counting.

Why do you feel the need to make excuses for this guy?

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06-27-2013, 09:22 AM
  #241
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I have to say, it's really fun watching someone defending Sather as obnoxiously as a lot of people usually attack him.

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06-27-2013, 09:27 AM
  #242
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Buying out Richards won't bite us in the ass because it is a financial decision, not a hockey decision. Not buying him out, however, may come back to bite us in the ass if we get stuck with his contract. How Richards and/or Brassard perform next year isn't relevant to the discussion.

I'm not saying they shouldnt buy him out. They kinda have to.

I was just pointing out that when the team is losing and somebody is struggling, the popular response around is here is "we should have kept so and so...."

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06-27-2013, 09:33 AM
  #243
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I wrote 6 because I thought it was stupid to include Hagelin and Kreider in that bunch. But I had to get on to the rest of your post, which is even more ridiculous.
Sure. I believe you.


Werent you the guy who at one point said Sather built a strong core?

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06-27-2013, 09:36 AM
  #244
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I have to say, it's really fun watching someone defending Sather as obnoxiously as a lot of people usually attack him.
Obnoxiously? What's obnoxious about it?

you can't have a civil discussion on this board because every thread is pisssed on by spoiled yankee fans...

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06-27-2013, 09:41 AM
  #245
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Originally Posted by HatTrick Swayze View Post
Is a president involved in every single decision the federal government makes? Does a CEO personally review every investment decision his company makes?

They don't. They can't. But they are tasked with constructing an organizational culture, and tasked with selecting and trusting staff members to carry out a successful vision. That's what leadership is. And if you have a decade long track record of haplessly treading water ultimately leadership needs to be accountable.

Rangers management has made some good moves, and some bad moves. But the amount of hypocrisy in Sather preaching accountability is laughable.

I've just accepted the fact that Dolan wont fire Sather. He'll step down when it's time. The fact that he's cut back on his overall role is a sign he's flexible and adapted.

The guy's a relic. His health sucks, and he's kevlar'ed himself from any criticism by hiding out in these far away places.

He's still done a good job. Not a great job. But good enough. This is one of the better periods in the franchises history, sad as that may be. Playoffs in 7 or 8 seasons in a 30-team league? Halfway decent farm system. Considering the abominations I've seen, I'll take it and run.

There's light at the end of the tunnel. I'm just being patient.

The franchise isn't at a critical point. They are at the point where only one or two moves could push them over the top. Head coach might have been one of them.

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06-27-2013, 09:44 AM
  #246
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Obnoxiously? What's obnoxious about it?

you can't have a civil discussion on this board because every thread is pisssed on by spoiled yankee fans...
See below:

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You must be one of those "Ovechkin isnt the MVP of the league even though he won the Hart" type of fans.
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What kind of ****ed up **** it that?
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But then, I guess they can just blame it on Sather for not acquiring Ryan Getzlaf.
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Outstanding. You just can't catch a break.
Look, I actually agree with a lot of what GWOW is saying, which really should come as no surprise to anyone. I'm just really entertained by his methods.

Sather deserves every bit of criticism he gets. But he also deserves to get a lot more credit than he actually does from most people. As always, there's a middle ground.

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06-27-2013, 09:45 AM
  #247
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I'm not saying they shouldnt buy him out. They kinda have to.

I was just pointing out that when the team is losing and somebody is struggling, the popular response around is here is "we should have kept so and so...."
*shrug*

Some people are saying we should keep him now. Some people don't think long term. Those same people would be torching Sather if we ended up getting stuck with Richard's cap hit, and would torch him again when we get hit with the cap recapture penalties.

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06-27-2013, 09:46 AM
  #248
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The thing is, I'm not a huge Sather fan. But I acknowledge that he became a good GM again, and helped make the Rangers relevant again. I dont blame GMs when teams lose in the postseason. It's the GM's job to build a team to get to the postseason and get there often. He's done that as good as anyone in the last 8 seasons.

Look at the team Shero assembled for Bylsma. Once you hit the playoffs, it's on the players and coaches.

The playoffs are too short a sample. If a team a GM assembles wins 50 games, then he's done his job. The Rangers didnt lose to the Devils because Ryan Carter outplayed Mike Rupp. They lost because Brodeur outplayed Lundqvist, and Deboer outcoached Torts.

Whatever happens, Sather has set the conditions for any new GM to keep the franchise competitive and challenge. The Rangers are young, relatively healthy and have depth where it matters. Fixing the bottom pair and the 4th line is hit or miss.

I really dont care about 2000-2004. Has nothing to do with the current state of the team. If you want to attribute no SCF appearance because he drafted Jessiman and Sanguinetti instead of Richards and Giroux, then be my guest. You would think the Lundqvist, Staal, Callahan and Stepan selections would put that BS to bed.

How many Sather threads is this where people complain and complain yet offer no solution outside of removing him.
That is all related. All of it. That 2003 draft isn't the only mistake and reason we are where we are today but certainly one of many made during that time. Decisions made during that 2000-2004 period are still affecting this organization today. If you want to believe otherwise, I can't help you there. He has done an average job. Sixteen of 30 make the playoffs. An average GM gets his team in. If that's your measure of success, then by all means. We do not have the top end talent that other teams have developed. As a result, he continues to splurge on UFA's in an attempt to rectify these mistakes and has failed in that regard as much if not more than he has succeeded.


Although he is very adept at cleaning up these messes with trades that bring back McDonagh, etc it prevents the organization from progressing. How many different identities has this team had in the last 7 years? How much roster turnover has both Renney and Tortorella had to deal with? This organization has gotten out of the 2nd round once in 16 years. I know full well that the NHL landscape has changed since the lockout but Sather's inability to devise a plan (really dating back to when he first got the job) will make it extremely difficult for the Rangers to take that next step.

And to answer who replaces him, as others have said, Jeff Gorton.

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06-27-2013, 09:49 AM
  #249
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I've just accepted the fact that Dolan wont fire Sather. He'll step down when it's time. The fact that he's cut back on his overall role is a sign he's flexible and adapted.

The guy's a relic. His health sucks, and he's kevlar'ed himself from any criticism by hiding out in these far away places.

He's still done a good job. Not a great job. But good enough. This is one of the better periods in the franchises history, sad as that may be. Playoffs in 7 or 8 seasons in a 30-team league? Halfway decent farm system. Considering the abominations I've seen, I'll take it and run.

There's light at the end of the tunnel. I'm just being patient.
Are we just going to ignore how Lundqvist has saved this team's bacon for the last 8 years? Considering hes on the wrong side of 30, I'd say this franchise is at a critical point.

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06-27-2013, 09:49 AM
  #250
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Are we just going to ignore how Lundqvist has saved this team's bacon for the last 8 years? Considering hes on the wrong side of 30, I'd say this franchise is at a critical point.
I'm not sure that the same standards of age apply to goaltenders like they do to skaters. 35 is more often the falloff point for them. But that being said, you're right... time is moving quickly.

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