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Old
06-26-2013, 08:04 PM
  #26
lboogie42*
 
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Please explain what criteria exactly puts Tavares ahead of any of the following guys?

St. Louis
Kane
E.Staal
Kessel
Hall
Datsyuk
Getzlaf
Toews
Giroux
Zetterberg
Backstrom
Kovalchuk
Ribeiro
Kunitz
Vanek
Stepan
Ladd
Vanek
Kopitar
Thornton

Seriously... I mean...
Tavares is muh better then a lot of people u just posted. Seriously. If you can't admit that JT isn't better then ribeiro, Kunitz, Stepan and a few others then that is just foolish IMO.

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Old
06-26-2013, 08:41 PM
  #27
JVRIELLYKADRI
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Crosby
Malkin
Stamkos
Datsyuk
Kessel

Weber
Chara
Suter
Keith
Karlsson

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Old
06-26-2013, 09:55 PM
  #28
SteveCangialosi123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lboogie42 View Post
Forwards:
Crosby
Malkin
Datsyuk
Stamkos
Kovalchuk

Dmen
Weber
Chara
Karlson
Letang
Doughty
My list. Maybe sub Suter for Letang.

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Old
06-26-2013, 09:57 PM
  #29
SaintTavares
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Ribeiro finished ahead of Tavares in scoring. Obviously there's the Ovechkin factor, but my main point is that Tavares doesn't bring much outside of his offense, and despite the hype he's NOT an elite offensive player.

So including him as a top-five forward is absolutely ridiculous; he's not even top-five offensively, let alone top-five overall.
You obviously don't watch too many Islander games...please don't try to argue that you do. Tavares is a pretty good two-way player, he's very responsible and makes few mistakes. He's extremely strong on the puck and rarely has it taken away. Put a legit top line player on JT's wing, and we'll see who's more of an elite offensive player.

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Old
06-26-2013, 10:02 PM
  #30
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Crosby
Toews
Bergeron
MSL
Datsyuk

Chara
Subban
Doughty
Suter
Keith

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Old
06-26-2013, 10:07 PM
  #31
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Stamkos
Malkin
Crosby
Toews
Ovechkin

Karlsson
Pietrangelo
Weber
Chara
Suter

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Old
06-26-2013, 10:08 PM
  #32
Joe Sakic
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Forwards

1. Crosby
2. Malkin
3. Tavares
4. Stamkos
5. Giroux

Defenseman

1. Weber
2. Karlsson
3. Keith
4. Subban
5. Suter

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Old
06-27-2013, 01:31 AM
  #33
pdd
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Originally Posted by SaintTavares View Post
You obviously don't watch too many Islander games...please don't try to argue that you do. Tavares is a pretty good two-way player, he's very responsible and makes few mistakes. He's extremely strong on the puck and rarely has it taken away. Put a legit top line player on JT's wing, and we'll see who's more of an elite offensive player.
Moulson is a legit top line player.

You Islanders fans are something. You trash a quality guy like Moulson just to prop up your hero Tavares. Tavares outscored Moulson by THREE POINTS. Toews is constantly bashed because he played all year with Hossa.

Let's take a look at Toews, Tavares, and their linemates this season:

Toews 47GP, 23-25-48
Hossa 40GP, 17-14-31
Saad 46GP, 10-17-27

Tavares 48GP, 28-19-47
Moulson 47GP, 15-29-44
Boyes 48GP, 10-25-35

I can go on with more examples, if you wish? People like you seem to think Tavares has linemates who do nothing and are incompetent. Both of Tavares' linemates outscored both of Toews' linemates, yet Toews outscored Tavares.

Why is it that you keep trying to force the idea that Tavares is an elite center when he's not?

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Old
06-27-2013, 07:52 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Moulson is a legit top line player.

You Islanders fans are something. You trash a quality guy like Moulson just to prop up your hero Tavares. Tavares outscored Moulson by THREE POINTS. Toews is constantly bashed because he played all year with Hossa.

Let's take a look at Toews, Tavares, and their linemates this season:

Toews 47GP, 23-25-48
Hossa 40GP, 17-14-31
Saad 46GP, 10-17-27

Tavares 48GP, 28-19-47
Moulson 47GP, 15-29-44
Boyes 48GP, 10-25-35

I can go on with more examples, if you wish? People like you seem to think Tavares has linemates who do nothing and are incompetent. Both of Tavares' linemates outscored both of Toews' linemates, yet Toews outscored Tavares.

Why is it that you keep trying to force the idea that Tavares is an elite center when he's not?
You can try and find one post where I bash Moulson, or you can keep talking out of your ass. And if you think that Boyes' numbers weren't a product of playing with Tavares, then like I said, you must not have watched any Islanders games this year. As for the idea of JT not being an elite player, yeah I guess anybody can finish in the top three for Hart voting, how did that bum JT do it?

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Old
06-27-2013, 09:27 AM
  #35
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Really very surprised by how many people don't have Toews in their top 5 ALL AROUND active players. I have slotted at number 2 next to Crosby.

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Old
06-27-2013, 09:40 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Moulson is a legit top line player.

You Islanders fans are something. You trash a quality guy like Moulson just to prop up your hero Tavares. Tavares outscored Moulson by THREE POINTS. Toews is constantly bashed because he played all year with Hossa.

Let's take a look at Toews, Tavares, and their linemates this season:

Toews 47GP, 23-25-48
Hossa 40GP, 17-14-31
Saad 46GP, 10-17-27

Tavares 48GP, 28-19-47
Moulson 47GP, 15-29-44
Boyes 48GP, 10-25-35

I can go on with more examples, if you wish? People like you seem to think Tavares has linemates who do nothing and are incompetent. Both of Tavares' linemates outscored both of Toews' linemates, yet Toews outscored Tavares.

Why is it that you keep trying to force the idea that Tavares is an elite center when he's not?
Put moulson on a line without JT and see how many points he gets.

Sure, maybe tavares isnt the best center, let alone top 5. But to say he is not elite is just foolish. Just watch how the guy plays. Anyone who says otherwise i have to disagree with. Guy is good and will only continue to be better. I like how we are even having a discussion about him being elite or not(which IMO he is) and hes still very young.

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Old
06-27-2013, 09:59 AM
  #37
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Crosby
Malkin
Stamkos
Staal
Ovechkin

Chara
Weber
Karlsson
Subban
Suter

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Old
06-27-2013, 10:26 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCangialosi123 View Post
My list. Maybe sub Suter for Letang.
yea your right. Suter over letang is a good choice.


Quote:
Originally Posted by booser22 View Post
Crosby
Malkin
Stamkos
Staal
Ovechkin

Chara
Weber
Karlsson
Subban
Suter
What? Staal?

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Old
06-27-2013, 10:34 AM
  #39
MardocAgain
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Giroux gets way too much credit for 1 elite season.

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Old
06-27-2013, 10:42 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by MardocAgain View Post
Giroux gets way too much credit for 1 elite season.
ehhh....point wise, he's gotten significantly better every year he's been in the league, and put up a ppg last year. Still only 25, theres a reason he was taken 22nd overall, some guys take longer to reach their potential and it looks like he's just getting there now. Plus, Voracek had the best season of his career playing with him, so you can't look past that.

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Old
06-27-2013, 10:46 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by MardocAgain View Post
Giroux gets way too much credit for 1 elite season.
Giroux's been ppg for 250+ games. And this being not just offense, Giroux is no slouch defensively. He plays the PK as well, unlike many of the normal "top 5 forwards".

If this was offense only, it would make sense to have guys like Stamkos and Ovechkin above him. Considering their all-around game those two should be under Giroux.

Also, a lot of people missing Toews.

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Old
06-27-2013, 11:57 AM
  #42
pdd
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Originally Posted by lboogie42 View Post
Put moulson on a line without JT and see how many points he gets.

Sure, maybe tavares isnt the best center, let alone top 5. But to say he is not elite is just foolish. Just watch how the guy plays. Anyone who says otherwise i have to disagree with. Guy is good and will only continue to be better. I like how we are even having a discussion about him being elite or not(which IMO he is) and hes still very young.
Put JT on a line without Moulson (or Okposo) and see how he does. He's had solid linemates his entire career, despite the narrative.

Also, a center who is IMHO not a top ten center is not an elite center. Elite means one of the very best; I wouldn't even consider "elite" to extend as far as ten, and certainly not down to Tavares, who is probably closer to 12 or 13.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintTavares View Post
You can try and find one post where I bash Moulson, or you can keep talking out of your ass. And if you think that Boyes' numbers weren't a product of playing with Tavares, then like I said, you must not have watched any Islanders games this year. As for the idea of JT not being an elite player, yeah I guess anybody can finish in the top three for Hart voting, how did that bum JT do it?
The last forward to be named a Hart finalist without managing PPG was Toronto's Tod Sloan in 1956, with 66 points in 70 games. He was involved in 43.1% of his team's 153 goals. Tavares was involved in 34.8% of his teams 135 goals. Sloan's linemates were George Armstrong (48 points) and Dick Duff (35 points), giving him a total 2 point advantage over Tavares from linemates. Each goal generates, on average, 2.5 points. This means that, had Sloan scored at the same rate relative to his linemates as Tavares did, he should have scored 48 points and not 66. If he scored the same/similar percentage of his team's offense, he would have only scored 41.

As we're already halfway through the O6 as it is, I don't think it's necessary to delve further. Tavares' top-three finish was largely based in media hype, and a true representation of East Coast bias. He's not better or more valuable than Western centers such as Toews, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Getzlaf, Thornton, or Kopitar. Nor is he better than Crosby, who did finish top-three. He's not better than Staal, not yet anyway. And he's not better than Bergeron. He's also not better than Malkin, although Malkin obviously missed a large portion of the season. He's not better than Stamkos. Giroux is debatable as well.

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Old
06-27-2013, 12:28 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Put JT on a line without Moulson (or Okposo) and see how he does. He's had solid linemates his entire career, despite the narrative.

Also, a center who is IMHO not a top ten center is not an elite center. Elite means one of the very best; I wouldn't even consider "elite" to extend as far as ten, and certainly not down to Tavares, who is probably closer to 12 or 13.



The last forward to be named a Hart finalist without managing PPG was Toronto's Tod Sloan in 1956, with 66 points in 70 games. He was involved in 43.1% of his team's 153 goals. Tavares was involved in 34.8% of his teams 135 goals. Sloan's linemates were George Armstrong (48 points) and Dick Duff (35 points), giving him a total 2 point advantage over Tavares from linemates. Each goal generates, on average, 2.5 points. This means that, had Sloan scored at the same rate relative to his linemates as Tavares did, he should have scored 48 points and not 66. If he scored the same/similar percentage of his team's offense, he would have only scored 41.

As we're already halfway through the O6 as it is, I don't think it's necessary to delve further. Tavares' top-three finish was largely based in media hype, and a true representation of East Coast bias. He's not better or more valuable than Western centers such as Toews, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Getzlaf, Thornton, or Kopitar. Nor is he better than Crosby, who did finish top-three. He's not better than Staal, not yet anyway. And he's not better than Bergeron. He's also not better than Malkin, although Malkin obviously missed a large portion of the season. He's not better than Stamkos. Giroux is debatable as well.
Tavares ALL AROUND game is better then most centers. 10 centers better then JT? Thats stretching it. And just because you think there are 10 better does not make him not elite. This is the best league in the world with the best players in the world. The fact that JT is 22 and is in the discussion/debate for elite players is impressive all on its own. We will have this discussion next year and you will have to eat your own words. Count on it.

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Old
06-27-2013, 12:36 PM
  #44
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In no order.

Forwards:
P.Kane
Ovechkin
Kadri
Duchene
Nash

Defensors:
Lidstrom
Weber
Chara
Karlsson
Letang

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Old
06-27-2013, 12:39 PM
  #45
SaintTavares
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Put JT on a line without Moulson (or Okposo) and see how he does. He's had solid linemates his entire career, despite the narrative.

Also, a center who is IMHO not a top ten center is not an elite center. Elite means one of the very best; I wouldn't even consider "elite" to extend as far as ten, and certainly not down to Tavares, who is probably closer to 12 or 13.



The last forward to be named a Hart finalist without managing PPG was Toronto's Tod Sloan in 1956, with 66 points in 70 games. He was involved in 43.1% of his team's 153 goals. Tavares was involved in 34.8% of his teams 135 goals. Sloan's linemates were George Armstrong (48 points) and Dick Duff (35 points), giving him a total 2 point advantage over Tavares from linemates. Each goal generates, on average, 2.5 points. This means that, had Sloan scored at the same rate relative to his linemates as Tavares did, he should have scored 48 points and not 66. If he scored the same/similar percentage of his team's offense, he would have only scored 41.

As we're already halfway through the O6 as it is, I don't think it's necessary to delve further. Tavares' top-three finish was largely based in media hype, and a true representation of East Coast bias. He's not better or more valuable than Western centers such as Toews, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Getzlaf, Thornton, or Kopitar. Nor is he better than Crosby, who did finish top-three. He's not better than Staal, not yet anyway. And he's not better than Bergeron. He's also not better than Malkin, although Malkin obviously missed a large portion of the season. He's not better than Stamkos. Giroux is debatable as well.
You really are trying to stretch this out, aren't you? You're trying to compare his four-year career to someone who played over 50 years ago? Just because this guy snubbed you for an autograph one time or scored a goal against your favorite team, you still shouldn't use your OPINION when trying to argue with reason.

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Old
06-27-2013, 12:56 PM
  #46
MardocAgain
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Originally Posted by SaintTavares View Post
ehhh....point wise, he's gotten significantly better every year he's been in the league, and put up a ppg last year. Still only 25, theres a reason he was taken 22nd overall, some guys take longer to reach their potential and it looks like he's just getting there now. Plus, Voracek had the best season of his career playing with him, so you can't look past that.
Still don't think that makes him top 5 forward. If he played for a small market team he wouldn't get near the love he receives from HF

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Old
06-27-2013, 06:17 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by lboogie42 View Post
yea your right. Suter over letang is a good choice.




What? Staal?
Yes. Even though I am a Canes fan, I am not a bias fan. Staal to me is a top 5 forward. He might not have the point totals and awards, but he can change and take over a game like a top 5 forward. His team is extremely inconsistent and until Semin got here, has not had any offensive help. He can win face offs and be physical.

I know I am alone on this and probably always will, but he is a top 5 forward IMO

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Old
06-27-2013, 09:48 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by CanuckHero View Post
Crosby
Malkin
Stamkos
Ovechkin
Tavares

Weber
Pietrangelo
Suter
Chara
Ekman-Larsson
Tavares isn't better offensively or defensively than Giroux.... Not even close. Toews is also better overall
And lol @ no Karlsson


Crosby
Malkin
Giroux
Stamkos
Toews

Weber
Suter
Karlsson
Chara
Pietrangelo/Doughty/ OEL/Subban it's impossible to pick 5


Last edited by Sasso09: 06-27-2013 at 10:00 PM.
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Old
06-27-2013, 10:03 PM
  #49
pdd
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Originally Posted by SaintTavares View Post
You really are trying to stretch this out, aren't you? You're trying to compare his four-year career to someone who played over 50 years ago? Just because this guy snubbed you for an autograph one time or scored a goal against your favorite team, you still shouldn't use your OPINION when trying to argue with reason.
Never met Tod Sloan. Not specifically aware of any notable impact he had on my team other than playing against them.

I brought him up because, as I said, he's the last forward to score less than PPG and finish top-three in Hart voting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lboogie42 View Post
Tavares ALL AROUND game is better then most centers.
Yes, but his overall game is worse than at least ten, most of whom are better all-around (and offensively) as well.

Quote:
10 centers better then JT? Thats stretching it. And just because you think there are 10 better does not make him not elite. This is the best league in the world with the best players in the world. The fact that JT is 22 and is in the discussion/debate for elite players is impressive all on its own. We will have this discussion next year and you will have to eat your own words. Count on it.
Ok, so now we're moving the goal posts so that the list is a prediction of who will be the top five next season, rather than who the best is right now? Also, if we're considering Tavares elite because he's a good center who plays in the NHL, then every center who is in the NHL (or playing NHL-level hockey in another professional league) is an elite center. Best of the best, and all that.

Elite is an exclusive term. "Elite center" doesn't mean "better than average #1 center". It means "one of the very best centers". Maybe the top four to six guys. It's actually kind of difficult to keep it that small, because you *want* to include other guys who are really good. But there's "really good" and there's "elite".

And the elite centers are:
Crosby, Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Malkin, Toews, Stamkos.

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Old
06-27-2013, 10:03 PM
  #50
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Yes. Even though I am a Canes fan, I am not a bias fan. Staal to me is a top 5 forward. He might not have the point totals and awards, but he can change and take over a game like a top 5 forward. His team is extremely inconsistent and until Semin got here, has not had any offensive help. He can win face offs and be physical.

I know I am alone on this and probably always will, but he is a top 5 forward IMO
Ovechkin, Stamkos, Crosby, Tavares, Giroux, Malkin

Can you make an argument over any of those guys?

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