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Old
06-25-2013, 08:38 PM
  #976
Randy Butternubs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
Yes, but if the NHL squad is too cramped you could just slot Dumoulin next to Harrington. not sure about Kolarik.. he's getting to the age where players start considering more guaranteed money in Europe. but I believe he has connections to the WB/S area and has played under Hynes before so he might be back.
Jacob, do you think Sill will get an NHL contract?

As in a two way contract. Cause hasn't he been an AHL deal only?


Last edited by Randy Butternubs: 06-26-2013 at 08:21 AM.
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Old
06-25-2013, 11:59 PM
  #977
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
here's how I have WB/S roster right now

Harrington - XXXX
Mormina - Samuelsson
D'Agostino - McNeill
Ruopp, Merth
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
Yes, but if the NHL squad is too cramped you could just slot Dumoulin next to Harrington.

I'm with you on having Dumoulin step up to the NHL next year if we trade one of Orpik or Niskanen (I'm not buying any of the Letang rumor crap). If we don't trade one or both of those guys, or if we were to trade only one by re-sign Murray, we could have a serious log-jam that could put Dumoulin back in WBS for one more year. I could make a good argument for either scenario, but one of the things I don't like is the idea of Ruopp not being a regular in WBS. I would almost rather see him go back to the WHL as an over-ager, and playing with an elite partner like Josh Morrisey, than being a #7 in the AHL.

It will be interesting to see if this becomes an issue and how this all shakes out. Here's how I would have it:

-trade Brooks Orpik for a 2nd + prospect, or a 2nd in '13 + 2nd in '14 to recoup what we gave up for Murray.
-keep one of Murray or Niskanen. Trade the other for whatever we can get for them. Obviously, if it's Niskanen we trade, we would get a bigger return as he is younger and an impending UFA who looks really good in the short-term here, but don't see him in the long-term

Despres-Letang
Dumoulin-Martin
Niskanen/Murray-Bortuzzo
Engelland

Then, would leave in WBS:

Harrington - Ruopp
Mormina - Samuelsson
D'Agostino - McNeill
(or something of the sort)

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06-26-2013, 06:36 AM
  #978
Al Smith
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Originally Posted by jmelm View Post
It will be interesting to see if this becomes an issue and how this all shakes out. Here's how I would have it:

-trade Brooks Orpik for a 2nd + prospect, or a 2nd in '13 + 2nd in '14 to recoup what we gave up for Murray.
-keep one of Murray or Niskanen. Trade the other for whatever we can get for them. Obviously, if it's Niskanen we trade, we would get a bigger return as he is younger and an impending UFA who looks really good in the short-term here, but don't see him in the long-term

Despres-Letang
Dumoulin-Martin
Niskanen/Murray-Bortuzzo
Engelland

Then, would leave in WBS:

Harrington - Ruopp
Mormina - Samuelsson
D'Agostino - McNeill
(or something of the sort)
I can't see the Pens with a lineup next year that would include Despres, Dumoulin, and Bortuzzo, unless others were injury. If Orpik and/or Niskanen go, I suspect Pens will pick up someone with more experience to fill in while D, D, and M pick up more experience.

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06-26-2013, 08:19 AM
  #979
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I don't think Dumoulin will make the team right away. Despres und Bort will be our ELC's on D and Engelland is cheap as one. To compare, Philly has 7 (!) dmen who make 3.5 a year or more (One of them is Pronger but still).

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Old
06-26-2013, 12:57 PM
  #980
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Smith View Post
I can't see the Pens with a lineup next year that would include Despres, Dumoulin, and Bortuzzo, unless others were injury. If Orpik and/or Niskanen go, I suspect Pens will pick up someone with more experience to fill in while D, D, and M pick up more experience.
I pretty much agree, and I also would not be surprised to see Dumoulin or Despres get traded for a top young winger (I'm not expecting it to happen, just saying I won't be surprised).

That being said, I don't see Bortuzzo as a rookie. I see him as an everyday NHL player. Despres, he is somewhere between a rookie and 2nd year guy. That difference is due to consistency, age & experience. However, it does depend on a large degree on what's happening with the salary cap and other players, as to whether Dumoulin is part of this team next year. I know it's not ideal, but we are going to have to cut corners somewhere to become cap compliant. If we were able to sign Dupuis + Iginla + one or both of Cooke/Morrow, AND we're not going to make a change with Fleury in goal, then we may be in a situation where we have to insert quite a few young guys...

If the salary cap was not going down, my preference would be to keep Orpik. If we hadn't traded away two 1st round picks (Joe Morrow + this year's first) and two 2nd round picks (Murray trade), then I would be even more inclined to just keep Orpik through till UFA status and let him walk. I think, however, trading a guy like Orpik and/or Niskanen is essential in both creating cap space, but perhaps more importantly, to replenish assets & draft picks going forward. As I've said before as well, I also see us in a similar light as Chicago in 2010: we may have to dismantle a little bit, and that might mean we take a step backwards for a year or two, but we don't really have a better choice and it should make us a better team in the longer term.

If we move Orpik, I would like to retain Murray, just for that physical presence; and also because Orpik could garner a lot in a trade, whereas Murray won't garner anything (except for maybe a 7th rounder for his rights). Niskanen would also garner a decent return in a trade, but doesn't clear as much cap space as Orpik.

Bottom line: there's no perfect situation here, and although I think it would be less than ideal, I would be OK with putting all 3 of Despres/Bortuzzo/Dumoulin in the line-up. Most scouts felt Dumoulin could have stepped right into the NHL LAST season, and yet we played him as one of our top-2 guys in the AHL. Putting him into the line-up right away is not the same as putting in Maatta or Pouliot right away. And I wouldn't even rule out the possibility of Harrington as a dark horse to make the team over Dumoulin if he Harry out-performs Dumo in camp. Like I said: less than ideal, but I don't have a problem cutting a corner on the back-end and giving these guys the experience they will ultimately need to get to grow if it's because we're spending more money up front scoring goals.

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06-26-2013, 05:44 PM
  #981
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Butternubs View Post
Jacob, do you think Sill will get an NHL contract?

As in a two way contract. Cause hasn't he been an AHL deal only?
He's been on a two-way the last 2 years, but I don't think he'll be re-signed. He has, IMO, regressed or at least stagnated since he earned his contract in 2011.. and I think there are players on the free agent market that are about Sill's age but have better potential to be 4th liners, like Cody Bass.

I hope they give Farnham an NHL deal too.

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Old
06-26-2013, 08:42 PM
  #982
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Originally Posted by jmelm View Post
I pretty much agree, and I also would not be surprised to see Dumoulin or Despres get traded for a top young winger (I'm not expecting it to happen, just saying I won't be surprised).

That being said, I don't see Bortuzzo as a rookie. I see him as an everyday NHL player. Despres, he is somewhere between a rookie and 2nd year guy. That difference is due to consistency, age & experience. However, it does depend on a large degree on what's happening with the salary cap and other players, as to whether Dumoulin is part of this team next year. I know it's not ideal, but we are going to have to cut corners somewhere to become cap compliant. If we were able to sign Dupuis + Iginla + one or both of Cooke/Morrow, AND we're not going to make a change with Fleury in goal, then we may be in a situation where we have to insert quite a few young guys...

If the salary cap was not going down, my preference would be to keep Orpik. If we hadn't traded away two 1st round picks (Joe Morrow + this year's first) and two 2nd round picks (Murray trade), then I would be even more inclined to just keep Orpik through till UFA status and let him walk. I think, however, trading a guy like Orpik and/or Niskanen is essential in both creating cap space, but perhaps more importantly, to replenish assets & draft picks going forward. As I've said before as well, I also see us in a similar light as Chicago in 2010: we may have to dismantle a little bit, and that might mean we take a step backwards for a year or two, but we don't really have a better choice and it should make us a better team in the longer term.

If we move Orpik, I would like to retain Murray, just for that physical presence; and also because Orpik could garner a lot in a trade, whereas Murray won't garner anything (except for maybe a 7th rounder for his rights). Niskanen would also garner a decent return in a trade, but doesn't clear as much cap space as Orpik.

Bottom line: there's no perfect situation here, and although I think it would be less than ideal, I would be OK with putting all 3 of Despres/Bortuzzo/Dumoulin in the line-up. Most scouts felt Dumoulin could have stepped right into the NHL LAST season, and yet we played him as one of our top-2 guys in the AHL. Putting him into the line-up right away is not the same as putting in Maatta or Pouliot right away. And I wouldn't even rule out the possibility of Harrington as a dark horse to make the team over Dumoulin if he Harry out-performs Dumo in camp. Like I said: less than ideal, but I don't have a problem cutting a corner on the back-end and giving these guys the experience they will ultimately need to get to grow if it's because we're spending more money up front scoring goals.

I was all for trading Orpik prior to the playoffs, but watching our lack of physicality on D (even against teams like the islanders) was so frustrating and concerning I'm wondering if we can really go down that path.

Our puck possession was absolutely abysmal in every series except for Ottawa and the first step is just getting the f'ing puck out of the zone, which we were completely unable to do when teams ramped up the forecheck. A lot of this was simply due to guys shirking contact, not taking a hit to make a play. Orpik and Murray are really the only d-man who can shrug off contact to make a play - and Murray has his own issues with puck retrieval.

I'm hoping Dumoulin would be able to have a bit of a steadying presence but until you actually see him in the NHL it's hard to say.

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Old
06-27-2013, 12:05 PM
  #983
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Originally Posted by Sjb141 View Post
I was all for trading Orpik prior to the playoffs, but watching our lack of physicality on D (even against teams like the islanders) was so frustrating and concerning I'm wondering if we can really go down that path.

Our puck possession was absolutely abysmal in every series except for Ottawa and the first step is just getting the f'ing puck out of the zone, which we were completely unable to do when teams ramped up the forecheck. A lot of this was simply due to guys shirking contact, not taking a hit to make a play. Orpik and Murray are really the only d-man who can shrug off contact to make a play - and Murray has his own issues with puck retrieval.

I'm hoping Dumoulin would be able to have a bit of a steadying presence but until you actually see him in the NHL it's hard to say.

Here's the thing though: if you look at the Cup winners, Chicago, they don't have any big "bruisers" on the back end. Yes, Seabrook is a GREAT all-around player who has some size, but he's not in the same mold of physicality as an Orpik, Phaneuf, or guys like Regehr or Foote in their primes. Don't get me wrong: I'm all for physicality, but not at the expense of a great all-around game.

IF the Pens traded Letang (which I don't believe they will), then you can realistically consider signing Orpik to an extension. But I believe Brooks has holes in his game and if we don't plan to retain him past next year, he is a declining asset. Now is the time to get peak value for this player.

Also, there's no question there are going to be growing pains with guys like Dumoulin & Despres. But I think that both of these guys are ready to take the leap to the next level, and the sooner they do so, the sooner (i.e. 1-2 years from now), they'll be real complete players. And if we're retaining Engelland as a #7 and maybe even Eaton as a #8 (or could call up Harrington), I think there's enough internal competition to push these guys, and have someone fill in for a few games if their play merits be scratching and being in the pressbox for a couple of games.

Like I said, no ideal situation here, but I don't have a problem with this route IF we get strong enough up front (i.e. retain both Iginla, Dupuis, and one of Cooke/Morrow) to help compensate for that. I still think the best defense is offense, and intangibles & leadership are key. I still REALLY like what Cooke brings to this team and is playing very good hockey. And I still think both Morrow, and especially Iginla, can be much better next season after a full training camp, etc.

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06-27-2013, 01:43 PM
  #984
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Yea, sorry if I gave off the wrong impression there. I'm not worried about the lack of Brooks in terms of just needing 'physicallity' or 'hitting' (there was a reason I didn't list Engelland).

My concern is more a matter of puck retrieval. And while Chi's D Men aren't huge hitters, they're much better than guys like Niskanen/Martin/Engelland being able to retrieve the puck under pressure, shrug it off and make a play. You don't have to be a huge hitter like Orpik for that, but it helps...I think that's a really underrated part of Brooks' game (and is really helped by his still very good skating ability).

From what I've heard of Dumoulin, it seems like that might be an area of strength for him as well, but until he's in the NHL it's hard to know for sure.


I was pretty disgusted with our puck retrieval in general during the playoffs (especially during the Islanders series). It's a tough situation, too, b/c it's a problem that tends to hide itself during the regular season and really only becomes obvious in the playoffs.

Of course, it would always depend on what the potential deal would be. Somebody gives us a 1st (even #30) for him and I'd be ecstatic, regardless.

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06-27-2013, 06:34 PM
  #985
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here's some data from the CHL season.

Player
% of Team GF On Ice
% of Team GA On Ice
Pouliot
19.82
4.94
Määttä
17.65
6.60
Harrington
15.44
5.28
Ruopp
23.14
11.19
Seymour
22.68
14.48

you can compare our dudes to other dudes! http://www.mckeenshockey.com/lib/Min...x.php?league=1


Last edited by Crafton: 06-27-2013 at 06:46 PM.
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06-27-2013, 08:10 PM
  #986
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Originally Posted by Crafton View Post
here's some data from the CHL season.

Player
% of Team GF On Ice
% of Team GA On Ice
Pouliot
19.82
4.94
Määttä
17.65
6.60
Harrington
15.44
5.28
Ruopp
23.14
11.19
Seymour
22.68
14.48

you can compare our dudes to other dudes! http://www.mckeenshockey.com/lib/Min...x.php?league=1
I don't understand how the % of goals against was calculated? Those numbers for Pouliot, Maatta and Harrington seem erroneously low. If you just evaluate the Winterhawks defense, the numbers don't add up (unless they gave up an improbable number of goals with no D on the ice): http://www.mckeenshockey.com/lib/Min...son=2013&pos=3

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06-27-2013, 08:49 PM
  #987
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Originally Posted by UnrealMachine View Post
I don't understand how the % of goals against was calculated? Those numbers for Pouliot, Maatta and Harrington seem erroneously low. If you just evaluate the Winterhawks defense, the numbers don't add up (unless they gave up an improbable number of goals with no D on the ice): http://www.mckeenshockey.com/lib/Min...son=2013&pos=3
very good question. i have no idea what's going on with that % of goals against stat.

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06-27-2013, 10:04 PM
  #988
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very good question. i have no idea what's going on with that % of goals against stat.
I think they may not count pp goals against but I may (good chance) be wrong.

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Old
06-28-2013, 05:43 AM
  #989
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Originally Posted by Sjb141 View Post
I think they may not count pp goals against but I may (good chance) be wrong.
If you just look at ESGF and ESGA, Pouliot was on the ice for ~29% of ESGF (66/228) and ~27% of ESGA (32/119), assuming there were 2 D on the ice for every ESGF and ESGA (seems like a reasonable enough assumption).

Anyway, that link is still great for raw data. Seems that Pouliot got less than 50% of his points at ES and only had 15 ES assists in 44 games. Hmmmm.

Edit: my approach to the ESGx above is of limited use since he only played 44 games. That is to say he was not even dressed for many of the GF and GA and his contributions to both GF and GA is even higher than the above.


Last edited by UnrealMachine: 06-28-2013 at 09:16 AM.
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06-28-2013, 09:03 AM
  #990
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Originally Posted by UnrealMachine View Post
If you just look at ESGF and ESGA, Pouliot was on the ice for ~29% of ESGF (66/228) and ~27% of ESGA (32/119), assuming there were 2 D on the ice for every ESGF and ESGA (seems like a reasonable enough assumption).

Anyway, that link is still great for raw data. Seems that Pouliot got less than 50% of his points at ES and only had 15 ES assists in 44 games. Hmmmm.
Well he will be our new PP QB in a few years so that's good.

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06-28-2013, 09:07 AM
  #991
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Well he will be our new PP QB in a few years so that's good.
it would be nice if we still had an elite 5v5 puck moving d-man at that point.

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06-28-2013, 10:34 AM
  #992
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Shelly Anderson ‏@pgshelly 1m
#Penguins '13 first-rounder Derrick Pouliot invited to Team Canada development camp in August for world junior team hopefuls.

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06-28-2013, 10:36 AM
  #993
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Good for Pouliot.

I was honestly never a huge fan of the pick... but he seems to have had an undeniably great season. With all of the Letang drama playing itself out, his value is that much higher.

You have to think Pouliot has been in the back of Shero's mind these last few days, especially. Maybe even at the very forefront...

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06-28-2013, 11:14 AM
  #994
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Closing in on limit. Let's get a new one up.

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