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Dream Draft: Better player at #15, Bossy or Sakic?

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Old
06-27-2013, 03:57 PM
  #51
aemoreira1981
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
What if we also take away Yzerman's knee injuries and back injury? Safe to say he's probably in the neighborhood of 800+ also.
Stevie Y still did manage to play over 1500 games in the NHL; Bossy's career was over after just 752. Bossy is also the third-quickest player to 500 career goals (he needed 647 games to get there), only 99 (575 games) and 66 (607 games) got there faster. That is why I have to go with Bossy...he never played long enough to be slowed down by declining skills---only by a bad back.

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06-27-2013, 03:58 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
I understand your point, but consider it an exercise in semantics.

No debating that statistically Bossy is not the highest scoring goal scorer ever. But should that render moot the opinion of those who played with/against him? If so, should we cease valuing the perspective of others (be they professionals, posters on HF, or anyone else) and instead reduce these threads exclusively to robotically spitting out a recital of statistics? I'm sure that is not what either of us would want.

I'm simply sharing what the aforementioned greats said. I interpret is as meaning that they see Bossy as the greatest goal scorer of all time, "pure" or "unpure".
I know what you're saying, and understand that opinion is a major part of ranking players, whether it be by goal scoring, fighting, or who has the best-looking spouse.

Hell, even I felt my post was a little too statistical. But I guess I can't get past the fact that, although some of his peers stated he was the greatest, purest, etc. goal scorer they played against, he only led the league in goals twice. Yes, he retired early, but I don't think you'll see much argument that goal scorers primes don't last much past thirty.

Who knows though, there are always exceptions, and perhaps an injury free Bossy can continue his torrid pace into his mid-thirty's. But that's a debate for another day.

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Old
06-27-2013, 04:51 PM
  #53
Dan-o16
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Originally Posted by 19NYSports91 View Post
Bryan Trottier was a better overall player than Bossy, just saying.
If 'better overall' means 'contributed more to his team winning', I'd say that Bossy was better than Trottier.

Bossy scored 17 goals three straight years in the playoffs. In '82 and '83, Trottier was already noticeably declining as a player. He just didn't have the jump anymore.

Let's go through this again. Bossy scored 17 goals in the playoffs THREE times consecutively. Gretzky did it once. Lemieux never did it. Sakic had 18 once. Kurri had 19 once.

In 1983, Bossy scored the GWG in every game in the conference finals against Boston. The guy was magical in the playoffs. He was an utterly dominant force. Any opposing fan at the time, if the game was tied, knew that it was more likely than not that Bossy would put the Isles in the lead. That's not an exaggeration.

I sometimes think that Bossy gets discounted because he's, frankly, uncharismatic. He's a bland, somewhat ugly dude, who criticizes the NHL for being overly violent, which people don't like.

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06-27-2013, 05:32 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by isles31 View Post
Bossy has the highest goals per game average in NHL history, so youre mistaken.
That's a poor argument since Bossy never played past his prime.His career ended by the time he turned 30. At the same age, Both Gretzky and Lemieux had better goal averages (Mario had the best by far).

Both Mario and Wayne had to play through old age and injuries which obviously impacted their pace. It would have impacted Bossy's numbers too.

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06-27-2013, 06:56 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Syckle78 View Post
Good post,Eva. He also lost out on goals due to work stoppages. Then factor in the offense he sacrificed by changing his game under Bowman. His injuries and later defensive responsibilities changed the perception of what an amazing offensive player he was. It drives my crazy to see his all time ranking amongst some. To rank him behind Sakic is pretty funny. Guess you had to be there to see it.
Did you make that avatar?

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06-27-2013, 07:28 PM
  #56
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Both were so awesome it doesn't even matter.

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Old
06-27-2013, 07:47 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by S E P H View Post
...was Bossy that much better than Sakic? And if so by how?
I would take Bossy, because he had a truly magical scoring touch, and if we're putting together a dream draft, the awesomeness that Sakic brings is more easily found in other all-time picks.

But what a problem this would be to have...

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06-27-2013, 09:18 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
I would take Bossy, because he had a truly magical scoring touch, and if we're putting together a dream draft, the awesomeness that Sakic brings is more easily found in other all-time picks.

But what a problem this would be to have...
Basically, this.

If you are building a team is there really a substantial drop-off in the formula of a stanley cup winning team if you go with one over the other of the following cup winning centers: Sakic, Forsberg, Yzerman, Federov, Modano, Francis, Trottier, Messier not to even mention the heavies Gretzky, Lemiuex, Howe, Yashin (J/K) etc. I won't bother to get into some of the other old-schoolers especially from the Montreal Canadians.

Whereas Bossy's talent seemed more specific and more rare. Rocket Richard, Lafleur, maybe the Hulls, "Phantom Joe Malone" if you want to go real old school. Just a word on the "Phantom"... how do you get more than 40 goals in only 20 games and not score a single assist?!

But what is funny, is that I wholly concede that Sakic was a better all-around player than Bossy. Like it was mentioned above... I don't even think Bossy was the best player on the Isles.

It's hard to articulate... But Bossy's goal scoring just felt different then someone like Gretzky, Lemieux or even a Kurri. What I think sets Bossy apart and gives him the moniker of "pure" goal scorer or "sniper" is that his game was intensely focused to the goal itself. He had a powerful slap shot, wrist shot whatever shot and he deployed it perfectly to score goals and score it at a very high and consistent rate.

Lemieux and Gretzky, their game was focused more on controlling the entire ice like a chess master or a field general. They certainly had better goal scoring stats but their goals really felt like they were more of a product of them being such dominant players. Probably did not help this discussion at all... but I hope I highlight how special it was to just watch Bossy scoring goals. He just seemed to posses a certain naturalness when doing it that is really hard to describe.

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Old
06-27-2013, 10:07 PM
  #59
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Bossy > Sakic and Yzerman
.

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06-27-2013, 10:30 PM
  #60
Erik Alfredsson
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Bossy quite easily.

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06-27-2013, 11:35 PM
  #61
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I'll go with Sakic. Bossy is the better goal scorer and point producer. But after that its all Sakic and it's widely enough to fill the offensive gap. I would point out that Bossy had play in most offensive years that Sakic did. Bossy was in is prime for all of the 80-81 to 85-86 season, where GPG average for each season was above 7.68, peaking at 8.02 in 81-82 (Bossy's 147 points years). Those 6 years are the highest goal scoring season since WW2. Overall Bossy play in 8 season where the gpg average where above 7, and a ninth where it was 6.99... The lowest was 6.59, in his first year.

On the other hand, Sakic highest goal-scoring season he play in was 88-89 at 7.48, his rookie year. He only play 2 other (89-90 & 92-93) where the scoring was above the 7 GPG mark, and grand total of 8 season (his first six + 95-96 & 05-06) where it was above the 6 GPG mark.

So the offensive gap between the two is way much tinier that what it seem to be.

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Old
06-28-2013, 01:03 AM
  #62
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 19NYSports91 View Post
Bryan Trottier was a better overall player than Bossy, just saying.
The Hart Trophy voters certainly agree with you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TOML View Post
Yeah? Well, he's overrated in terms of 2-way ability. No Selke's. I'm not putting him in a defensive role over a lot of players currently and historically. Why? Well, typically, excellent 2-way-type guys don't register a minus 40 season, no matter the team.
Sakic was 2nd in Selke voting in 2000-01; close enough? I do think that was largely based off plus/minus and probably too high, but he did reach a level of defensie ability above Bossy.

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06-28-2013, 06:35 AM
  #63
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There is no BOSS in Sakic. Two of my alltime greats, but I pick the one with the flashy name

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06-28-2013, 08:13 AM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Yzerman hit 692. He could have played in 2006-07 and made it over 700.

Yzerman was one of the league's fastest, most agile, and simply slickest skaters. Then he completely wrecked his knee in 87-88, on the night he hit 50 goals (he ended the year with 64GP, 50-52-102). He followed up the next season by scoring 65 goals and 155 points in 80 games. What happens if Yzerman doesn't have that knee injury? 70/170? 80/190?

In 87-88, Yzerman scored 0.95 points per game at ES, compared to Mario Lemieux's 0.96. In 88-89, Yzerman had 1.26, compared to Lemieux's 1.34 and Gretzky's 1.28.

Since we're going "no injuries", by pro-rating to full GP seasons where Yzerman played under 87.5% of available GP, I have added 62 goals. That puts Yzerman at 754. Yzerman's first knee injury was in 1988, and affected seventeen following seasons. His back injury was in 1993, and twelve seasons were affected. If you assume that each injury was equally harmful to his GPG, then we need to add 29x to his goal total, where x is equal to the average goals per full (70GP+) season the injuries prevented Yzerman from scoring. So Yzerman is over 800 if the on-ice effects of his cumulative knee and back injuries were worth two goals. And this doesn't even get into his other knee injuries, his eye injury, etc.
Now let's do the same for Teemu Selanne who wrecked his knee after his 76 goal season

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Old
06-28-2013, 12:40 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The Hart Trophy voters certainly agree with you.
Do you have a source for historical Hart votes? Bossy's best years were during Gretzky's great run. Trottier wouldn't have touched the Hart then either.

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06-28-2013, 12:56 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by isles31 View Post
Bossy has the highest goals per game average in NHL history, so youre mistaken.
This.Bossy is the best goal scorer in league history.573 goals in 752 games are you kidding me?!Bossy literally averaged 60 goals a year!

Every season except his last one Bossy scored 50+ goals a season.He scored 50+ goals his first 9 seasons of his career.Bossy = best goal scorer in league history ainec.It should be renamed the Mike Bossy trophy not Rocket Richard.

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06-28-2013, 01:10 PM
  #67
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by Dan-o16 View Post
Do you have a source for historical Hart votes? Bossy's best years were during Gretzky's great run. Trottier wouldn't have touched the Hart then either.
Top 7 in Hart voting

1977-78 Bossy's rookie season, and also the first season that Trottier received significant Hart votes.
HART: (486/486) Guy Lafleur 145; Bryan Trottier 99; Darryl Sittler 67; Don Edwards 34; Brad Park 31; Bobby Clarke 27; Denis Potvin 24;

1978-79
HART: (459/459) Bryan Trottier, NYI C 201; Guy Lafleur, Mtl RW 84; Marcel Dionne, LA C 47; Denis Potvin, NYI D 46; Mike Palmateer, Tor G 18; Serge Savard, Mtl D 13; Dennis Herron, Pit G 7;

1979-80 Gretzky winning the Hart as a rookie
HART: (567/567) Wayne Gretzky 211; Marcel Dionne 166; Tony Esposito 64; Guy Lafleur 44; Danny Gare 20; Mike Liut 14; Larry Robinson 9;

1980-81
HART: (567/567) Wayne Gretzky 242; Mike Liut 237; Marcel Dionne 24; Mike Bossy 20; Bryan Trottier 9; Mike Liut 14; Larry Robinson 9;

1981-82
HART: (567/567, 63-63-63) Wayne Gretzky 315 (63-0-0); Bryan Trottier 130 (0-41-7); Mike Bossy 34 (0-10-4); Peter Stastny 15 (0-2-9); Dale Hawerchuk 13 (0-2-7); Barry Beck 10 (0-3-1); Dennis Maruk 10 (0-0-10);

1982-83
HART: (567/567, 63-59-57) Wayne Gretzky 266 (43-16-3); Pete Peeters 159 (14-27-8); Denis Savard 67 (3-10-22); Rod Langway 30 (1-6-7); Mark Howe 20 (2-0-10); Bobby Clarke 9; Peter Stastny 5;

1983-84
HART: (558/558, 62-62-62) Wayne Gretzky 306 (60-2-0); Rod Langway 102 (1-26-19); Bryan Trottier 54 (1-14-7); Rick Middleton 31 (0-8-7); Ray Bourque 17 (0-4-5); Mike Bossy 13 (0-3-4); Michel Goulet 12 (0-2-6);

1984-85
HART: Wayne Gretzky 303 (60-1-0); Dale Hawerchuk 91 (1-23-17); Pelle Lindbergh 56 (0-15-11); Rod Langway 28 (1-6-5); Ray Bourque 21 (0-5-6); Brian Sutter 13 (1-2-2); Doug Wilson 10 (0-3-1);

1985-86
HART: Wayne Gretzky 281 (54-3-2); Mario Lemieux 163 (4-46-5); Mark Howe 32 (0-5-17); Paul Coffey 29 (1-4-12); John Vanbiesbrouck 16 (1-1-8); Mike Bossy 5 (0-1-2); Peter Stastny 3 (0-0-3);

1986-87 Bossy's last year
HART: Wayne Gretzky 255 (49-3-1); Ray Bourque 95 (2-24-13); Mike Liut 39 (1-7-13); Mario Lemieux 34 (2-6-6); Doug Gilmour 30 (0-9-3); Dale Hawerchuk 11 (0-2-5); Steve Yzerman 5 (0-1-2);


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 06-28-2013 at 06:55 PM. Reason: spelling for dummies
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06-28-2013, 01:11 PM
  #68
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Bossy's 10 seasons: 573 goals in 752 games .762 gpg
Lemieux's first 10 seasons: 494 goals in 599 games .825 gpg
Gretzky's first 10 seasons: 637 goals in 774 games .823 gpg

No, Bossy was not the best goal scorer in league history.

Other guys:

Brett Hull's first 10 seasons: 526 goals in 730 games. .721 gpg
Ovechkin so far: 371 goals in 601 games. .617 gpg
Maurice Richard's first 10 seasons: .617 gpg
Crosby so far: 238 goals in 470 games. .506 gpg


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06-28-2013, 01:24 PM
  #69
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by TOML View Post
Bossy's 10 seasons: 573 goals in 752 games .762 gpg
Lemieux's first 10 seasons: 494 goals in 599 games .825 gpg
Gretzky's first 10 seasons: 637 goals in 774 games .823 gpg

No, Bossy was not the best goal scorer in league history.

Other guys:

Brett Hull's first 10 seasons: 526 goals in 730 games. .721 gpg
Ovechkin so far: 371 goals in 601 games. .617 gpg
Maurice Richard's first 10 seasons: .617 gpg
Ovechkin and Richard played in much lower scoring eras, so these numbers aren't really fair to them. Hull's first 10 seasons kind of bridge the gap from the high-flying 80s to the dead puck era.

But the numbers aren't at all unfair to Bossy (or Gretzky's first 10), whose career exactly corresponded to highest scoring era in NHL history. Lemieux was kind of like Hull in that his first 10 years were split between high scoring and low scoring, which makes his case for the best goal scorer in history all the stronger (I'd still take Gretzky as a better overall offensive player than Lemieux though)


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06-28-2013, 02:35 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Top 7 in Hart voting


1981-82
HART: (567/567, 63-63-63) Wayne Gretzky 315 (63-0-0); Bryan Trottier 130 (0-41-7); Mike Bossy 34 (0-10-4); Peter Stastny 15 (0-2-9); Dale Hawerchuk 13 (0-2-7); Barry Beck 10 (0-3-1); Dennis Maruk 10 (0-0-10);
Wow. Still I prefer the guy who scored 61 goals in 72 playoff games from '80-'83. And, yeah, I realize that Trottier probably assisted on 50 of those goals.

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06-28-2013, 04:43 PM
  #71
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Bossy has the highest goals per game average in NHL history, so youre mistaken.
This post is filled with ignorance.

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Old
06-28-2013, 04:59 PM
  #72
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I'd take Sakic 10 out of 10. Mike Bossy is a fabulous player, but unfortunately he he had injury issues. Sakic on the other hand was able to stay healthy and is a top 10 all-time NHL point scorer.

I get that Bossy would have broken all the goal scoring records, but guess what he got injured and didn't. He only ended up playing 750 games. Sakic played in almost 1400 games and posted 1641 pts.

I'll take the guy that was relatively healthy and a top 10 NHL scorer over the guy who could score but got injured any day of the week.
Basically this; and I'm a Wings fan so I don't have any dog in the fight. You can play woulda, coulda, shoulda all day with guys like Lindros, Primeau, Bossy, etc. I mean if Tretiak would have defected where does he rank on the all time goalies list? etc.

Plus, Sakic's playstyle was definitely part of why he managed to play so long, mostly injury free. Smooth skater, exceptional vision, seemed to sense open ice, was very difficult to line up and just destroy. I think Yzerman was a better player, but by the time we were battling Colorado for western conference supremacy I didn't think there was a huge gap between him and Sakic (at the time).

I'm not disrespecting Mike Bossy, he was a great player and those Isle's teams were ridiculously good. But what is, is. He got hurt, Sakic didn't and therefore Sakic is the better #15 draft pick.

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06-28-2013, 05:25 PM
  #73
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Mike Bossy likely would've scored at least 800 goals in his career if he continued the way he did without the injuries that ruined those chances. He takes this, hands town.

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06-29-2013, 12:57 AM
  #74
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Joe Sakic. Better career, just as good of a player IMO.

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06-29-2013, 06:30 AM
  #75
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Joe Sakic. Handsome man, class act, and just amazing at everything.

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