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2013 Offseason Thread Part V: Trade Em All!

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Old
06-28-2013, 11:53 AM
  #751
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I hope Sather exploits that demand for d-men and fleeces someone for Del Zotto.

I'd trade Boyle as well. He is replaceable from within the system and his stock is up after a decent playoffs.

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06-28-2013, 11:54 AM
  #752
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A piece of my soul is taken by the devil when I see the word possession here

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06-28-2013, 11:54 AM
  #753
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SA16 View Post
Don't want clarkson but a 30 game sample does not make a player overrated or underrated.
Agreed but those 30 games seem to fall more in line with his career numbers rather than his 11-12 season and first 15 games or so this year.

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06-28-2013, 11:55 AM
  #754
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
I think it's been mentioned before, but Clarkson is a very good puck possession player.
Or, the Devils are a very good puck possession team. Only two players on that team were a minus Corsi (Salvador and Urbom). Everyone else was a plus. Put Callahan on the Devils, and his Corsi would look a lot better. Peter Harrold had a 20.24 Corsi On. Is he an elite puck possession player?

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06-28-2013, 12:10 PM
  #755
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Depends on the circumstances, but I'm leaning towards Clarkson. Would change if Callahan returns to 10-11 form.
wow. Cally is far superior in every aspect of the game AINEC. Clarkson has played with much better linemates and their production is similar. But Cally has a big IQ and Clarkson is clueless except when he has the puck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SA16 View Post
The bolded is very important...
No it's not. Shots do not mean scoring chances.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
It may come as a shock to you, but not only me and -31- put value in this. Shocking, I know.
It's idiotic. Taking 30 shots from the side boards against a defense that forces you to the outside doesn't mean you are controlling play or more likely to win. It's just an incomplete metric which should get very little attention.

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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
Also the current head coach of the Rangers, so get ready for a maddening 5 years, Bard.
And you know how important it is to him how? And if you are right, it will be frustrating to see shots flying from every angle and plays not getting made; you are certainly correct in that regard.


Last edited by JeffMangum: 06-28-2013 at 12:13 PM. Reason: Use the multi-quote button, it isn't difficult.
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06-28-2013, 12:11 PM
  #756
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Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
No it's not. Shots do not mean scoring chances.
So you prefer the stat that's entirely based on gut and judgment? I'm blown away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
It's idiotic. Taking 30 shots from the side boards against a defense that forces you to the outside doesn't mean you are controlling play or more likely to win. It's just an incomplete metric which should get very little attention.
Every stat is idiotic if you take it to unreachable extremes like you are there.

Quote:
Last edited by BB v2 0: Today at 05:04 PM. Reason: Use the multi quote button,
Oh, come on, cut him some slack! He's closing in on 2,000 posts, and 1,500 posts on why Boyle's stats are wrong.

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Old
06-28-2013, 12:14 PM
  #757
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Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
And you know how important it is to him how? And if you are right, it will be frustrating to see shots flying from every angle and plays not getting made; you are certainly correct in that regard.
I guess I don't know how much he cares about the possession stats, specifically, but he's definitely up on his analytics (which you consider witchcraft).

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Old
06-28-2013, 12:23 PM
  #758
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
How about keep the picks, continue to take chance with drafting solid pieces like Fasth and Nieves instead of pissing it away for non-difference makers at the deadline?
I agree that Clowe probably isn't the answer, but one gets the sense slats wanted him for years. If that's true, he's not leaving.

To the other point, of all the "solid pieces" we drafted in the last 15 years, the successful ones (outside Lundqvist, Staal, Callahan, Tyutin and Stepan) have been guys like Corey Potter, Joey Crabb and Lauri Korpikoski. We drafted Jessiman at no. 12, then Montoya at 3, Staal, then Sanguinetti. More recently Miller, McIlrath, Del Zotto, Skjei (none of whom are shaping up to be "difference-makers"--some more than others). Maybe St. Croix, definitely Stepan.

We've signed two good undrafted guys in Girardi and Parenteau (who got decent with the Isles, not us), maybe MZA. The rest have sucked.

Our "rebuild" started in 2004 and was very noncommital. We traded crap for crap and drafted gus like Olver, Byers and Bahensky. Saviors, like Immonen, Balej, Kondratiev and Jessiman would take a few years, so we iced a team of 4th liners and 6th d-men and Jagr. The "new" NHL worked to our advantage, and we became "a pretty good team" again. The rebuild ended. We haven't progressed. I don't care if we were s Trophy\swept that year, and then went to the ECSF/President's Trophy runner-up 6 years later--we have not been a contender in almost 20 years.... 2012 is arguable, okay, I'll say that.

BUT... teams like the Hawks, the Kings, the Pens, the Bruins--were all re-building for a good 4 years, getting high picks. Although we've done it, it is very hard to **** up a top-five pick. That's what we need. That, or make more Gomez or Gaborik trades, those were rebuilding moves.

Clowe for three 2nd round picks is not a move for the future. Slats is good at making damage-control moves that usually give us a great part, but the sum of all is just not enough.

Until we commit to rebuilding the right way, we will be a "pretty good" team, that has to make **** trades, and always be near the cap, and drafts career 3rd liners.

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06-28-2013, 12:36 PM
  #759
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BB v2 0 View Post
Or, the Devils are a very good puck possession team. Only two players on that team were a minus Corsi (Salvador and Urbom). Everyone else was a plus. Put Callahan on the Devils, and his Corsi would look a lot better. Peter Harrold had a 20.24 Corsi On. Is he an elite puck possession player?
Harrold was a good possession player on a good possession team on the Kings before he joined the Devils. Harrold was also out against easier lines and had a bunch of offensive zone starts, hence his higher on-ice Corsi rating. Clarkson is the best possession player on a top possession team. Perhaps Callahan would do well like all players do on Elias's line, but Callahan also got to play with some of the Rangers best puck possession players in Stepan and Hagelin. There should be no linemate excuses. Callahan misses Dubi.

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Old
06-28-2013, 12:37 PM
  #760
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Originally Posted by BobMarleyNYR View Post
I agree that Clowe probably isn't the answer, but one gets the sense slats wanted him for years. If that's true, he's not leaving.

To the other point, of all the "solid pieces" we drafted in the last 15 years, the successful ones (outside Lundqvist, Staal, Callahan, Tyutin and Stepan) have been guys like Corey Potter, Joey Crabb and Lauri Korpikoski. We drafted Jessiman at no. 12, then Montoya at 3, Staal, then Sanguinetti. More recently Miller, McIlrath, Del Zotto, Skjei (none of whom are shaping up to be "difference-makers"--some more than others). Maybe St. Croix, definitely Stepan.

We've signed two good undrafted guys in Girardi and Parenteau (who got decent with the Isles, not us), maybe MZA. The rest have sucked.

Our "rebuild" started in 2004 and was very noncommital. We traded crap for crap and drafted gus like Olver, Byers and Bahensky. Saviors, like Immonen, Balej, Kondratiev and Jessiman would take a few years, so we iced a team of 4th liners and 6th d-men and Jagr. The "new" NHL worked to our advantage, and we became "a pretty good team" again. The rebuild ended. We haven't progressed. I don't care if we were s Trophy\swept that year, and then went to the ECSF/President's Trophy runner-up 6 years later--we have not been a contender in almost 20 years.... 2012 is arguable, okay, I'll say that.

BUT... teams like the Hawks, the Kings, the Pens, the Bruins--were all re-building for a good 4 years, getting high picks. Although we've done it, it is very hard to **** up a top-five pick. That's what we need. That, or make more Gomez or Gaborik trades, those were rebuilding moves.

Clowe for three 2nd round picks is not a move for the future. Slats is good at making damage-control moves that usually give us a great part, but the sum of all is just not enough.

Until we commit to rebuilding the right way, we will be a "pretty good" team, that has to make **** trades, and always be near the cap, and drafts career 3rd liners.
I feel like we're one high end winger and one PP defenseman with a big shot away from being legitimate contenders. I hate to bring it up, but one of those holes likely would've been filled with Cherepanov. This team has had some pretty unfortunate luck and some mind numbingly terrible drafting. The Montoya/Jessiman picks have crippled us for years. You just cannot **** up early picks like that

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06-28-2013, 12:37 PM
  #761
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Originally Posted by BobMarleyNYR View Post
I agree that Clowe probably isn't the answer, but one gets the sense slats wanted him for years. If that's true, he's not leaving.

To the other point, of all the "solid pieces" we drafted in the last 15 years, the successful ones (outside Lundqvist, Staal, Callahan, Tyutin and Stepan) have been guys like Corey Potter, Joey Crabb and Lauri Korpikoski. We drafted Jessiman at no. 12, then Montoya at 3, Staal, then Sanguinetti. More recently Miller, McIlrath, Del Zotto, Skjei (none of whom are shaping up to be "difference-makers"--some more than others). Maybe St. Croix, definitely Stepan.

We've signed two good undrafted guys in Girardi and Parenteau (who got decent with the Isles, not us), maybe MZA. The rest have sucked.

Our "rebuild" started in 2004 and was very noncommital. We traded crap for crap and drafted gus like Olver, Byers and Bahensky. Saviors, like Immonen, Balej, Kondratiev and Jessiman would take a few years, so we iced a team of 4th liners and 6th d-men and Jagr. The "new" NHL worked to our advantage, and we became "a pretty good team" again. The rebuild ended. We haven't progressed. I don't care if we were s Trophy\swept that year, and then went to the ECSF/President's Trophy runner-up 6 years later--we have not been a contender in almost 20 years.... 2012 is arguable, okay, I'll say that.

BUT... teams like the Hawks, the Kings, the Pens, the Bruins--were all re-building for a good 4 years, getting high picks. Although we've done it, it is very hard to **** up a top-five pick. That's what we need. That, or make more Gomez or Gaborik trades, those were rebuilding moves.

Clowe for three 2nd round picks is not a move for the future. Slats is good at making damage-control moves that usually give us a great part, but the sum of all is just not enough.

Until we commit to rebuilding the right way, we will be a "pretty good" team, that has to make **** trades, and always be near the cap, and drafts career 3rd liners.
I was told that New Yorkers can't handle a rebuild. But somehow they survived to 7 years of suck without much progress being made.

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Old
06-28-2013, 12:38 PM
  #762
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It's not going to be the popular opinion around here but I strongly believe that if we're going to trade a D-Man, it should be Girardi. He did not look very good for most of the last season and I strongly presume that his playing style is going to wear him down. I LOVE Girardi and the way he plays but the fact is that all of those pucks and hits are going to do damage physically. He looked worn down last year. Maybe some rest will do him some good... but I strongly suspect he's on the downslope of his career and that his trade value will never be as high as it is this year. Not to mention that he'll be looking for a raise next season. Not sure what he'd bring us but I'd much rather deal Danny G than DZ.

Del Zotto looked vulnerable a lot of last season but he moves the puck better than most of our current rotation and I personally attribute a lot of his vulnerability to his playing partner. Stralman is NOT a good defensive D-Man and is constantly out of position covering the break and in his own zone. DZ is not strong enough himself defensively to cover someone like Stralman but I think he still has value to this team and could benefit from a different pairing, specifically with a stay at home, lockdown defensive partner. I feel like Del Zotto had to deal with far more 2-on-1's than any other D-Man we have.

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06-28-2013, 12:40 PM
  #763
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HatTrick Swayze View Post
The injury risk is why I think you have to buy him out.

But the Rangers are unquestionably a better team with a 50-60 point BR next year than without.

Banking on Lindberg/Miller is extremely risky. So is ponying up for a UFA center with what they will likely cost due to lack of supply.

I could see riding with BR for one more year. Let Lindberg/Miller develop in the AHL. Buy out BR next year, let a kid step in. It may not be what I would do but at least I can understand the thinking...
Give them both a full shot this year.
You'll see, they are ready to cut the mustard NOW.

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06-28-2013, 12:41 PM
  #764
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Del Zotto created a lot of those 2 on 1's.

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06-28-2013, 12:41 PM
  #765
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
I was told that New Yorkers can't handle a rebuild. But somehow they survived to 7 years of suck without much progress being made.
They got to the Conference Finals in 2012, on the back of mostly home grown players.

No progress?

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06-28-2013, 12:47 PM
  #766
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It's not going to be the popular opinion around here but I strongly believe that if we're going to trade a D-Man, it should be Girardi. He did not look very good for most of the last season and I strongly presume that his playing style is going to wear him down. I LOVE Girardi and the way he plays but the fact is that all of those pucks and hits are going to do damage physically. He looked worn down last year. Maybe some rest will do him some good... but I strongly suspect he's on the downslope of his career and that his trade value will never be as high as it is this year. Not to mention that he'll be looking for a raise next season. Not sure what he'd bring us but I'd much rather deal Danny G than DZ.

Del Zotto looked vulnerable a lot of last season but he moves the puck better than most of our current rotation and I personally attribute a lot of his vulnerability to his playing partner. Stralman is NOT a good defensive D-Man and is constantly out of position covering the break and in his own zone. DZ is not strong enough himself defensively to cover someone like Stralman but I think he still has value to this team and could benefit from a different pairing, specifically with a stay at home, lockdown defensive partner. I feel like Del Zotto had to deal with far more 2-on-1's than any other D-Man we have.
If we're dealing G, we better be getting a proven, solid RHD back as part of the package (or at least a cant-miss prospect). Without Girardi, our RHD depth is even more atrocious than it already is.

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06-28-2013, 12:47 PM
  #767
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Del Zotto created a lot of those 2 on 1's.
That's true but I'm just making the point that he didn't have a defensive partner that could cover his mistakes. Straalman magnifies DZ's sloppiness because he does little to make up for it.

I'm not totally hating on Stralman, either. He's a perfectly fine 3rd pairing defenseman that, like Mike, could use someone to cover his weaknesses (own zone). I just don't get that partnership and think both players could benefit from having a more defensively sound player on their side.

Of course, dealing Girardi like I proposed would leave us with 1 righthanded D-Man but I'd rather make value-based deals instead of needs-based deals.

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06-28-2013, 12:49 PM
  #768
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Scouting,drafting and player develoment are keys to any organization especially in hockey. Not only scouting players for the draft. Making trades. Signing minor league free agents. Giving those players an opportunity. Put Kreider with players who have a pulse. Not Brian Boyle and Taylor Pyatt. Miller was good with Kreider and Callahan. Then he played one game with Gaborik and Callahan. That line was very good. Torts puts Miller on the wing with Boyle and Pyatt. Forget about it. Too many people here rely want the free agents or the "proven" players. Neil Smith was the perfect GM for these guys.
Thank you.
I've been sayin those 3, with Hags in the mix, is a real go go line.

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06-28-2013, 12:50 PM
  #769
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I was told that New Yorkers can't handle a rebuild. But somehow they survived to 7 years of suck without much progress being made.
How old were you during those 7 years? Do you know the personnel we had then? We rolled through mediocre goalies one after the other. Same with coaches. We have arguably the best goalie in the world with a young solid 4-6 defense in front of him. This is not the time for a rebuild.

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06-28-2013, 12:54 PM
  #770
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Thank you.
I've been sayin those 3, with Hags in the mix, is a real go go line.
Kreider has played his best hockey in the NHL with Stepan as his center.

In fact, his biggest goals in the playoffs came with Stepan as his center.

IMO, the two of them need to be attached at the hip at even strength. With Nash on the other wing.

Put him with checking players, and in a checking role, don't expect goals from Kreider. Want him to score, put him with skilled players.

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06-28-2013, 12:57 PM
  #771
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2nd hand information so take with a grain of salt but I heard from someone who spoke with somebody that knows an individual that works for Richards' agent that he won't be bought out this off-season. If this is true then there could be some substance to Lebrun's speculation.

If this is true then us Ranger fans are going to cringe every time Richards takes a hit this upcomming season. Perhaps in the interest of staying competitive for one more season the Rangers are prepared to roll the dice....

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06-28-2013, 12:59 PM
  #772
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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
So you prefer the stat that's entirely based on gut and judgment? I'm blown away.


Every stat is idiotic if you take it to unreachable extremes like you are there.

Oh, come on, cut him some slack! He's closing in on 2,000 posts, and 1,500 posts on why Boyle's stats are wrong.
And every stat is idiotic when it is used as the end all. never said Boyle's stats are wrong; epic fail on your part there. However, he does suck.

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06-28-2013, 12:59 PM
  #773
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Originally Posted by BobMarleyNYR View Post
I agree that Clowe probably isn't the answer, but one gets the sense slats wanted him for years. If that's true, he's not leaving.

To the other point, of all the "solid pieces" we drafted in the last 15 years, the successful ones (outside Lundqvist, Staal, Callahan, Tyutin and Stepan) have been guys like Corey Potter, Joey Crabb and Lauri Korpikoski. We drafted Jessiman at no. 12, then Montoya at 3, Staal, then Sanguinetti. More recently Miller, McIlrath, Del Zotto, Skjei (none of whom are shaping up to be "difference-makers"--some more than others). Maybe St. Croix, definitely Stepan.

We've signed two good undrafted guys in Girardi and Parenteau (who got decent with the Isles, not us), maybe MZA. The rest have sucked.

Our "rebuild" started in 2004 and was very noncommital. We traded crap for crap and drafted gus like Olver, Byers and Bahensky. Saviors, like Immonen, Balej, Kondratiev and Jessiman would take a few years, so we iced a team of 4th liners and 6th d-men and Jagr. The "new" NHL worked to our advantage, and we became "a pretty good team" again. The rebuild ended. We haven't progressed. I don't care if we were s Trophy\swept that year, and then went to the ECSF/President's Trophy runner-up 6 years later--we have not been a contender in almost 20 years.... 2012 is arguable, okay, I'll say that.

BUT... teams like the Hawks, the Kings, the Pens, the Bruins--were all re-building for a good 4 years, getting high picks. Although we've done it, it is very hard to **** up a top-five pick. That's what we need. That, or make more Gomez or Gaborik trades, those were rebuilding moves.

Clowe for three 2nd round picks is not a move for the future. Slats is good at making damage-control moves that usually give us a great part, but the sum of all is just not enough.

Until we commit to rebuilding the right way, we will be a "pretty good" team, that has to make **** trades, and always be near the cap, and drafts career 3rd liners.
But too many here are unwilling to provide incentive to other teams to make such deals.

It doesn't even HAVE TO BE top 5.
Just play the odds, go for a guy who has a reasonably high chance of succeeding.

MAYBE you can deal McD + for 1st overall = McKinnon.
Try to add to that deal and get a guy like Siemens.

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06-28-2013, 12:59 PM
  #774
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Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
2nd hand information so take with a grain of salt but I heard from someone who spoke with somebody that knows an individual that works for Richards' agent that he won't be bought out this off-season. If this is true then there could be some substance to Lebrun's speculation.

If this is true then us Ranger fans are going to cringe every time Richards takes a hit this upcomming season. Perhaps in the interest of staying competitive for one more season the Rangers are going to roll the dice....
Actually by the time I read it it was 5th hand information.

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06-28-2013, 01:00 PM
  #775
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2nd hand information so take with a grain of salt but I heard from someone who spoke with somebody that knows an individual that works for Richards' agent that he won't be bought out this off-season. If this is true then there could be some substance to Lebrun's speculation.

If this is true then us Ranger fans are going to cringe every time Richards takes a hit this upcomming season. Perhaps in the interest of staying competitive for one more season the Rangers are going to roll the dice....
Heard the same in a similar manner. I am furious. Just hoping that somehow, it's not true or something changes. Take with grain of salt, too.

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