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Alex Tanguay and Cory Sarich to COL for David Jones and Shane O'Brien

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Old
06-28-2013, 11:21 PM
  #376
TheHudlinator
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Originally Posted by Abbotsford Heat View Post
Agree to disagree. This is a stupid argument, especially since my original thought/questions had nothing to do with him being injury prone. I had a serious question and unfortunately I took your lead and let it go off the rails.

I usually really like you as a poster Hud, but on this particular topic it's like you are so blind with hate over it that you can't see that it's not that bad. I am not sure why either because it's not usually your M.O to get this upset about a transaction.
I hate it because of 3 reasons

#1. We complain about Tanguay's attitude but bring in O'Brien who has a a history of being a worse locker room influence.

#2. We thought Tanguay had a bad contract (apparently) and yet took back a worse contract in Jones and added 4 million extra cap the following season in O'Brien over Sarich

#3. We targeted a player in Jones who there are a vast amount of players that have his main positive attribute in his physicalness and yet very little in way of defenseman.

I think moving Tanguay was a good idea and taking a chance on Jones is a good idea but if look at just value alone we downgraded an asset in Tanguay and didn't acquire anyone that isn't readily available in free agency or got a pick for a poor contract.

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06-28-2013, 11:34 PM
  #377
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I was putting it the other way around. Tanguay was non-committed and wouldn't be good for the young guys in our room, and Sarich was/is useless.

"Either way, we got fleeced" doesn't seem to make sense in this scenario. It's not a lopsided trade by any means. Tanguay and Jones will likely be a wash, and O'Brien is an upgrade over Sarich. Neither team got fleeced, and neither really got that much better. Jones should be a better fit for us, though, given our logjam on the left side.
I disagree. From what we've been told from Avs fans we have essentially traded Alex Tanguay, a first liner (sure with a terrible attitude when losing) for a Blake Comeau. As it stands the teams have traded a bottom pairing D for a bottom pairing D, and a first liner for a third liner. We. Got. Fleeced.

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06-28-2013, 11:37 PM
  #378
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Originally Posted by TheHudlinator View Post
I hate it because of 3 reasons

#1. We complain about Tanguay's attitude but bring in O'Brien who has a a history of being a worse locker room influence.

#2. We thought Tanguay had a bad contract (apparently) and yet took back a worse contract in Jones and added 4 million extra cap the following season in O'Brien over Sarich

#3. We targeted a player in Jones who there are a vast amount of players that have his main positive attribute in his physicalness and yet very little in way of defenseman.

I think moving Tanguay was a good idea and taking a chance on Jones is a good idea but if look at just value alone we downgraded an asset in Tanguay and didn't acquire anyone that isn't readily available in free agency or got a pick for a poor contract.
1. I don't buy it. Feaster and Gelinas have both been in organizations with O'Brien. I think they know a little better than the Avs fans saying he is bad in the room.

2. Tanguay's bad contract was made worse by the combination he.... A) is 33 so he will not improve and will likely decline during this contract. B) Has a poor attitude. C) Plays a 1 dimensional game. Jones on the other hand.... A) has more time to bounce back. B) Until this past season was lauded for his work ethic. C) Plays a multi-faceted game. Personally I don't care that Tanguay to Jones is a downgrade offensively, be it is an upgrade in every other facet of the game

3. I am not even sure what you are trying to say. He plays physical but is not a defenseman?

4. That extra year on O'Brien's contract is not a big deal since we just would have used that $2 million on someone else anyways.

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06-28-2013, 11:45 PM
  #379
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Originally Posted by wflames View Post
We shipped out Tanguay and Sarich, who one could make the argument also fit those bills.

Also, an Avs fan down there (Foppa2118) said that O'Brien was well-liked by his teammates. Seems like everyone was ready to jump on him over Giguere's comments, but those were not addressed to just one player.
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Originally Posted by MuffinMerc View Post
Wasn't Sarich well liked in the locker room? Aren't we getting a player that was in the whole Vegas trip planning mess?

Either way, we got fleeced.
No one ever really had any idea who the Vegas comments were directed to. There's was never even really a hint.

It was just jokingly assumed by many that it might have been SOB, due to his past history as a party kind of guy, and him being the most likely bet. SOB made some comments afterwards (don't recall what they were exactly) where if Jiggy's comments were about him, he didn't seem to have a problem with them, and stuck up for Jiggy speaking his mind. As did the whole team really.

Either way, by all accounts he was a very well liked guy by his teammates on the Avalanche, and I'm sure you guys will like him too. He seems to be a charismatic up beat kind of guy, so it's easy to see why his teammates like him.

His main issue is that he tries to carry the puck up ice too much, and make little dekes at his own blueline to avoid forecheckers that usually either narrowly miss being turned over, or are turned over. When it works he transitions pretty well, but he does it too much.

He seemed to curb that a little last season, but it's hard to tell because he didn't play all that much either.

I think he could fit in well with the Flame's style, as long as he doesn't try to do too much and get himself in trouble.

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06-29-2013, 12:30 AM
  #380
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MuffinMerc View Post
I disagree. From what we've been told from Avs fans we have essentially traded Alex Tanguay, a first liner (sure with a terrible attitude when losing) for a Blake Comeau. As it stands the teams have traded a bottom pairing D for a bottom pairing D, and a first liner for a third liner. We. Got. Fleeced.
You are absolutely right that Tanguay is a first liner due to his style of play. However, as he showed last year, he can no longer be relied upon to overmatch the other team's first line players. I see Tanguay as a mediocre to poor top-6 forward, and the bad thing about that is even if he's the third best left winger on the Avs next season, he's not really a guy who is going to be effective playing on the third line. It's top 6 or bust for him.

On the other hand, we have Jones, and he has top-6 potential, though as you say he has a high chance of winding up on the third line. With his skill set, though, he is capable of being a very effective third line player and helping the team.

We are pretty set for offensive left wingers right now, but we have a lack of right wingers and size. That's why trading a poor first liner for a good third liner is not actually a bad move. I think that value is about more than just a players' role. For example, if we were offered Brad Marchand (a third-liner) for Alex Tanguay (a first-liner), would you take the deal? How about Tyler Seguin (another third-liner)?

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06-29-2013, 12:55 AM
  #381
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Originally Posted by wflames View Post
You are absolutely right that Tanguay is a first liner due to his style of play. However, as he showed last year, he can no longer be relied upon to overmatch the other team's first line players. I see Tanguay as a mediocre to poor top-6 forward, and the bad thing about that is even if he's the third best left winger on the Avs next season, he's not really a guy who is going to be effective playing on the third line. It's top 6 or bust for him.

On the other hand, we have Jones, and he has top-6 potential, though as you say he has a high chance of winding up on the third line. With his skill set, though, he is capable of being a very effective third line player and helping the team.

We are pretty set for offensive left wingers right now, but we have a lack of right wingers and size. That's why trading a poor first liner for a good third liner is not actually a bad move. I think that value is about more than just a players' role. For example, if we were offered Brad Marchand (a third-liner) for Alex Tanguay (a first-liner), would you take the deal? How about Tyler Seguin (another third-liner)?
Terrible comparisons...

Brad Marchand:
2010/2011: 21 Goals, 20 Assists
2011/2012: 28 Goals, 27 Assists
2012/2013: 18 Goals, 18 Assists

Tyler Seguin:
2010/2011: 11 Goals, 11 Assists
2011/2012: 29 Goals, 38 Assists
2012/2013: 16 Goals, 16 Assists

Now for David Jones...
2010/2011: 27 Goals, 18 Assists
2011/2012: 20 Goals, 17 Assists
2012/2013: 3 Goals, 6 Assists

And for the hell of it I looked up Blake Comeau: 6 goals, 6 assists on the season (2 goals with the Jackets, 3 assists for both teams) still better than Jones this season. If I was offered Seguin for Tanguay would I do it? Sure. But we weren't offered him. Comparing these third liners is like comparing tricycle to a Porsche 911. Both will get you to where you want to go, but one is clearly better than the other.

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06-29-2013, 01:07 AM
  #382
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Originally Posted by MuffinMerc View Post
Terrible comparisons...

Brad Marchand:
2010/2011: 21 Goals, 20 Assists
2011/2012: 28 Goals, 27 Assists
2012/2013: 18 Goals, 18 Assists

Tyler Seguin:
2010/2011: 11 Goals, 11 Assists
2011/2012: 29 Goals, 38 Assists
2012/2013: 16 Goals, 16 Assists

Now for David Jones...
2010/2011: 27 Goals, 18 Assists
2011/2012: 20 Goals, 17 Assists
2012/2013: 3 Goals, 6 Assists

And for the hell of it I looked up Blake Comeau: 6 goals, 6 assists on the season (2 goals with the Jackets, 3 assists for both teams) still better than Jones this season. If I was offered Seguin for Tanguay would I do it? Sure. But we weren't offered him. Comparing these third liners is like comparing tricycle to a Porsche 911. Both will get you to where you want to go, but one is clearly better than the other.
My comparisons were to serve a purpose. Chiefly, to show that trading a first liner for a third liner isn't bad in and of itself. I think it is a perfectly valid point. You are absolutely right that Marchand and Seguin are in a different league to Jones. But Tanguay is on his way to being a beat-up tricycle amongst sports cars himself, so their relative value is extremely comparable, which is a different discussion. Again, my point was not to compare Jones to Marchand et al., it was to compare the values of some third liners to first liners and thereby show that the following statement from your post failed to properly support its conclusion:

Quote:
As it stands the teams have traded a bottom pairing D for a bottom pairing D, and a first liner for a third liner. We. Got. Fleeced.
If the trade was to Boston for Bartkowski and Marchand, the statement would apply, but the conclusion wouldn't, hence the fallacy.

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06-29-2013, 01:31 AM
  #383
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A lot of you guys are overreacting. Not just a little, a lot.
You guys are listening to Avs fans, which you shouldn't. You guys are just looking at stat sheets, which you also shouldn't. You guys are making assumptions, which you absolutely shouldn't.

Do any of you guys know for certain that SOB's a cancer in the locker room? By all reports, people in Denver were all too pleased with Shane's personality, charisma and locker room leadership. In fact, most reports have the same mentality as most of you 'When we got him, I thought he was a cancer in the locker room... and then...'

As for David Jones. He had a tough year; so what? One year doesn't constitute an entire career. He's always had a great shooting percentage, he's a big guy and he still has a long ways to go in his prime.

Almost every person who covers the Flames truly liked or even loved this move on the Flames part; and yet forum people are angry; because what? We overvalued an aging finesse player, who some thought would return a fortune?
Just to say; Alex Tanguay is not a bad guy, he's not a cancer or a *****. He just didn't want to be here. At 33 (34 within the first month of next season), he didn't want to be part of a rebuild, did he handle it well? Maybe not the best; sulking... and playing 'I don't give a ****' on the ice like that.

So we move two guys who don't want to be here, for two that will have a lot to prove (especially Jones). I can't see a loss in this trade, outside of taking on 500k... but at the end of the day; what's 500k when you have almost 25 million worth of cap to spare?

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06-29-2013, 09:04 AM
  #384
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There is an old saying that "attitude is everything." Sometimes, when a person is playing injured or has an unproductive season, everyone gets on their back. It is like having someone looking over your shoulder for every mistake you make, then broadcasting it for everyone (including your family) to hear. There is an opportunity that is being provided here for both Tanguay and Jones.

I believe being given a chance at a new start is just what both players need. Do I think Jones' best years are behind him? No, not if he can reenergize himself and stay healthy.

Some people never permit themselves a little optimism and prefer to think about how bad things can get. It feels so good when reclamation projects succeed, that possibility alone is worth the price of admission.

The fate of the franchise does not ride on Jones' shoulders. He may flop, or he may be a very pleasant surprise.

It is interesting to note that his 27 goal season, (his most productive) came after his injury so I believe he will be able to bounce back to his best physically, and I hope this trade is exactly what he needs.

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06-29-2013, 10:08 AM
  #385
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Now if we can find a skilled, big, center to play between jones and Glencross we will have a physical line with a great shooting percentage.

I in no way see this as a step back. It's plugging holes. Big holes.

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06-29-2013, 01:14 PM
  #386
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Now if we can find a skilled, big, center to play between jones and Glencross we will have a physical line with a great shooting percentage.

I in no way see this as a step back. It's plugging holes. Big holes.
Knight.

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06-29-2013, 02:09 PM
  #387
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Knight.
Hopefully he's ready, because that's actually the perfect fit.

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06-29-2013, 02:26 PM
  #388
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Cammalleri - Stajan - Hudler
Beartschi - Backlund - Stempniak
Glencross - Knight - Jones
Bouma - Reinhart - McGrattan

Giordano - Brodie
Butler - Wideman
Cundari - O'Brien

Ramo
Berra


leaves us with somthing like that?

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06-29-2013, 02:44 PM
  #389
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Hopefully he's ready, because that's actually the perfect fit.
I think he is. The competition in the NCAA isn't all that far off from the AHL.

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06-29-2013, 02:53 PM
  #390
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Originally Posted by FlamesFreak4 View Post
Cammalleri - Stajan - Hudler
Beartschi - Backlund - Stempniak
Glencross - Knight - Jones
Bouma - Reinhart - McGrattan

Giordano - Brodie
Butler - Wideman
Cundari - O'Brien

Ramo
Berra


leaves us with somthing like that?
Id do this:

Cammalleri - Backlund - Hudler
Beartschi - Stajan - Stempniak
Glencross - Knight - Jones
Bouma - Reinhart - McGrattan

Giordano - Brodie
Butler - Wideman
Cundari - Breen

Ramo
Joey Mac

But yeah, something like that. Love that 4th line.

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06-30-2013, 07:21 AM
  #391
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that first line is too soft

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06-30-2013, 09:19 AM
  #392
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I just listened to interviews of Jones and SOB on the fan, SOB actually sounds like a standup guy and someone who is going to be a really good locker room guy. He wants to be a leader and he's really excited to be here; I really liked the fact he said he wants to take on a leadership role.

Jones admitted he was playing bad hockey last season. Hopefully in a new environment and having a prominent role more will all contribute to him bouncing back.

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06-30-2013, 09:28 AM
  #393
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I just listened to interviews of Jones and SOB on the fan, SOB actually sounds like a standup guy and someone who is going to be a really good locker room guy. He wants to be a leader and he's really excited to be here; I really liked the fact he said he wants to take on a leadership role.

Jones admitted he was playing bad hockey last season. Hopefully in a new environment and having a prominent role more will all contribute to him bouncing back.
they both seemed to be relieved to be out of Colorado, I know neither said it, but that's just the impression I got.

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06-30-2013, 09:35 AM
  #394
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they both seemed to be relieved to be out of Colorado, I know neither said it, but that's just the impression I got.
I agree, sounds like the ROR situation was a major distraction.

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06-30-2013, 09:39 AM
  #395
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I agree, sounds like the ROR situation was a major distraction.
which means the players sided with ROR and not the club, definitely causes a divide in the organization if that happens

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06-30-2013, 12:58 PM
  #396
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Originally Posted by Volica View Post
A lot of you guys are overreacting. Not just a little, a lot.
You guys are listening to Avs fans, which you shouldn't. You guys are just looking at stat sheets, which you also shouldn't. You guys are making assumptions, which you absolutely shouldn't.

Do any of you guys know for certain that SOB's a cancer in the locker room? By all reports, people in Denver were all too pleased with Shane's personality, charisma and locker room leadership. In fact, most reports have the same mentality as most of you 'When we got him, I thought he was a cancer in the locker room... and then...'

As for David Jones. He had a tough year; so what? One year doesn't constitute an entire career. He's always had a great shooting percentage, he's a big guy and he still has a long ways to go in his prime.

Almost every person who covers the Flames truly liked or even loved this move on the Flames part; and yet forum people are angry; because what? We overvalued an aging finesse player, who some thought would return a fortune?
Just to say; Alex Tanguay is not a bad guy, he's not a cancer or a *****. He just didn't want to be here. At 33 (34 within the first month of next season), he didn't want to be part of a rebuild, did he handle it well? Maybe not the best; sulking... and playing 'I don't give a ****' on the ice like that.

So we move two guys who don't want to be here, for two that will have a lot to prove (especially Jones). I can't see a loss in this trade, outside of taking on 500k... but at the end of the day; what's 500k when you have almost 25 million worth of cap to spare?
i agree with all of this. well said.

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12-01-2013, 08:03 PM
  #397
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Instead of making a new thread about it, I just posted here. So how do other people feel about the trade so far? I personally find it pretty decent for now, it would have been nice to have a draft pick coming our way to have a bit of hope for more but I guess that did not happen. I like what Jones has done for the most part. Thoughts?

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12-01-2013, 08:06 PM
  #398
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Jones has been underwhelming IMO, I thought he would be crashing the net more. Sarich for O'Brien is whatever a #7 guy for a #7 guy. Losing Tanguay hurt our PP.

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12-01-2013, 08:48 PM
  #399
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Jones pre injury was a great pickup. Jones post injury not as much.

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12-01-2013, 08:49 PM
  #400
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Probably the worst deal of late.

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