HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > Edmonton Oilers
Notices

Oilers and Gagner working on extension: [UPD: Elected Arbitration]

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
06-29-2013, 12:53 AM
  #901
Psycho Dad
Oil Kings
 
Psycho Dad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Sherwood Park
Posts: 9,913
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Why do that? Harpoon is right to use the total mins spent on pk in the year. One of the things Gagner offers is seldom being out of the lineup (even if injured) and providing the club with the optimal amount of GP he does.

If you use per game you specifically take that GP benefit out of the occasion. But for what reason?

PK benefit served to team is pk benefit served to team. Thats total minutes on that unit.

Anyway, people wanted a breakdown of Gagner shorthanded this season.

76mins on ice for 3GFON 4GAON, had 2 shorthanded pts, leading the team, and was practically even at PK for his duration of minutes. The best numbers of anybody on the club shorthanded and its not even close. He was -.078/60mins for 4 on 5 hockey. Shawn Horcoff was -4.72 Belanger was -6.91. ps in the exact same amount of pk time as Gagner Horc was scored against 6 times and with zero GFON in his pk minutes. Belanger of course had no GFON in his appreciable pk minutes and was scored against 9 times.

Doesn't matter, people won't like those numbers anyway, even though they are the numbers.
So we're talking about a different Sam Gagner than the one who missed an average of 12 games each of the last three seasons before last season? Should we dig up his total PK minutes then as well?

And you really think he was playing the toughs on the PK? And that his PK assists weren't an outlier?

Any port in a storm, Gagner fans. Hey look, this stat looks good! Proof! Proof!

Psycho Dad is offline  
Old
06-29-2013, 12:55 AM
  #902
KlimasLoveChild
Registered User
 
KlimasLoveChild's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: The Toilet of Canada
Posts: 1,099
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
How many of our forwards are adept at that and where are the D, and why are they vacating the area of the net so often when this nature of thing is occurring?
I would say all the other centers on the team are more adept at that then Gagner. As for the second part, I'd have to look at the specific play to determine that but the d is also lacking.

Quote:
One of the specific problems Gagner has is linemates that don't provide much puck support in own zone when we do momentarily possess it. Yak and Hemmer(and this for his career) haven't always been that adept at own zone play. You can't just look at the one player in isolation.
I agree his line mates weren't the best for puck support. I do however question clearly missed assignments when we don't have the puck. He was good for a boner or two a game. It is possible to isolate a player and determine if he is pulling his weight.


Quote:
If the Oilers thought gagner was so horrible in ownzone would they spend so many years with him tutoring raw rookies and now giving him PK assignment?
Remember this is the same team that has been grooming Buchberger to be the next Scotty Bowman.

KlimasLoveChild is offline  
Old
06-29-2013, 01:43 AM
  #903
Replacement
Now with 9% more zen
 
Replacement's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Hockey Hell
Country: Canada
Posts: 34,712
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho Dad View Post
So we're talking about a different Sam Gagner than the one who missed an average of 12 games each of the last three seasons before last season?
For clarity lets again go with actual real numbers.

458 Oiler games have occurred during Gagner's tenure with the club. He's played in 418 of those games and he's missed 40 games in his entire career. From an Oiler standpoint this is as close to ironman as it gets for a forward. Name any one forward on this club that has played in 92% of the clubs games. Again Gagner represents a much higher GP proportion than any of the forwards in the lineup. This is value to the club. A healthy player. A rare quantity here actually.


Quote:
And you really think he was playing the toughs on the PK? And that his PK assists weren't an outlier?
I'm unfamiliar with opponent clubs regularly stocking their PP with scrubs on the man advantage. Most pk time you are seeing pretty good players. Are you really disputing this?

Quote:
Any port in a storm, Gagner fans. Hey look, this stat looks good! Proof! Proof!
My post as you know is a reply to people suggesting that Gagner was insignificant on the pk, wasn't any good on the pk, etc. You know that. Not sure why its a bad thing to present numbers that people in the thread were requesting or questioning.


Last edited by Replacement: 06-29-2013 at 01:49 AM.
Replacement is offline  
Old
06-29-2013, 01:50 AM
  #904
Spawn
Registered User
 
Spawn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 22,113
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
For clarity do we want to again go with actual GP numbers or more myth making? 458 Oiler games have occurred during Gagner's tenure with the club. He's played in 418 of those games and he's missed 40 games in his entire career. From an Oiler standpoint this is as close to ironman as it gets for a forward. Name any one forward on this club that has played in 92% of the clubs games. Again Gagner represents a much higher GP proportion than any of the forwards in the lineup. This is value to the club. A healthy player. A rare quantity here actually.
Eberle has played in 92% of the games available to him (195 of 212). Gags is actually at 90% too

Not really sure what the point of my post is... I want to keep Gagner (assuming its not a gross overpayment).

Spawn is offline  
Old
06-29-2013, 01:55 AM
  #905
Replacement
Now with 9% more zen
 
Replacement's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Hockey Hell
Country: Canada
Posts: 34,712
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spawn View Post
Eberle has played in 92% of the games available to him (195 of 212)
Missed that one then.

I thought Eberle missed more games his rookie year. I don't think any other forward is in the lineup as much.

By todays standards anyway and with increasing injuries to players having guys that play the vast majority of games is a plus. More than 90% is gravy. I wonder what proportion of forwards in the league with appreciable GP have played that high a proportion.

In anycase my point was pretty clear in response to a poster suggesting Gagner has missed a lot of games. We should be so lucky to have all our players in the lineup this often.

Replacement is offline  
Old
06-29-2013, 01:56 AM
  #906
Spawn
Registered User
 
Spawn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 22,113
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Missed that one then.

I thought Eberle missed more games his rookie year. I don't think any other forward is in the lineup as much.

By todays standards anyway and with increasing injuries to players having guys that play the vast majority of games is a plus. More than 90% is gravy. I wonder what proportion of forwards in the league with appreciable GP have played that high a proportion.
Another one (although in and out of the line up) is Paajarvi. It's actually one of the reasons I want to keep him around. Dude doesn't get hurt.

Spawn is offline  
Old
06-29-2013, 01:58 AM
  #907
dnicks17
Moderator
.
 
dnicks17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,903
vCash: 500
Yak is at 100%.

dnicks17 is offline  
Old
06-29-2013, 02:01 AM
  #908
Replacement
Now with 9% more zen
 
Replacement's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Hockey Hell
Country: Canada
Posts: 34,712
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spawn View Post
Another one (although in and out of the line up) is Paajarvi. It's actually one of the reasons I want to keep him around. Dude doesn't get hurt.
This one is less clear. Between callups and downs this can hide some games that might be missed, player is not 100%, or is HS.

In anycase I was talking about forwards that have been around for awhile and with appreciable games played. MPS in 3 yrs hasn't played anyhere close to the GP that Eberle or Gagner has up in the show.

Replacement is offline  
Old
06-29-2013, 02:02 AM
  #909
Replacement
Now with 9% more zen
 
Replacement's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Hockey Hell
Country: Canada
Posts: 34,712
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dnicks17 View Post
Yak is at 100%.


Yak will be a gooder. Too early to establish ironman capability but he could be one of those guys. Still, I was speaking of forwards that have been here or in the NHL an appreciable amount of time.

Replacement is offline  
Old
06-29-2013, 02:05 AM
  #910
harpoon
Registered User
 
harpoon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,318
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho Dad View Post
Try using PK min/game, or his actual place in the depth chart for PKers.
I think Replacement has already done a good job of explaining why I didn't use PK min/gm and as for his place in the depth chart, that varied throughout the season. One thing the Oilers have never been shy about is shuffling Gagner up and down the depth chart and playing him with anybody. Must say something about his versatility ....
Quote:
He is not one of the main PKers.
For parts of the season he was. The numbers say that Horcoff, Belanger and Gagner played roughly the same number of PK minutes. Whatever excuses you may want to make about who was injured and who would have had what ... the bottom line is he put in the minutes.
Quote:
He did okay, but don't pretend like he's all of a sudden shutting down the opponent's PP1, because he's not.
I specifically said that he wasn't a world beater. Where was I pretending that he was an elite shutdown PK guy? Is this really you or has someone hacked your handle again?
Quote:
And I'm not denigrating anything. He is what he is, and his accomplishments are moderate, aside from the 8 point game.
Ah yes, the eight point game. Thanks for reminding everyone. As for "moderate" accomplishments .... on a dead last team that hasn't accomplished a damn thing in five years, moderate accomplishments are nothing to sneeze at.
Quote:
He's not a $5M/year guy.
I agree and I've never said otherwise. But is Hemsky a $5 million dollar guy? Was Horcoff ever? Precedents have been set and he's gonna get paid. I could do without the NMC and seeing as he's like 23 with no wife or children, I don't see why we should have to give him one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Anyway, people wanted a breakdown of Gagner shorthanded this season.

76mins on ice for 3GFON 4GAON, had 2 shorthanded pts, leading the team, and was practically even at PK for his duration of minutes. The best numbers of anybody on the club shorthanded and its not even close. He was -.078/60mins for 4 on 5 hockey. Shawn Horcoff was -4.72 Belanger was -6.91. ps in the exact same amount of pk time as Gagner Horc was scored against 6 times and with zero GFON in his pk minutes. Belanger of course had no GFON in his appreciable pk minutes and was scored against 9 times.

Doesn't matter, people won't like those numbers anyway, even though they are the numbers.
Thanks for that. Those are indeed some impressive numbers. Must have been a fluke.

harpoon is offline  
Old
06-29-2013, 02:07 AM
  #911
dnicks17
Moderator
.
 
dnicks17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,903
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
This one is less clear. Between callups and downs this can hide some games that might be missed, player is not 100%, or is HS.

In anycase I was talking about forwards that have been around for awhile and with appreciable games played. MPS in 3 yrs hasn't played anyhere close to the GP that Eberle or Gagner has. Especially up in the show.
Paajarvi has actually played more games than both Eberle or Gagner in the last three years.

He's only missed 15 games(I think) and some are probably due to travel and a few healthy scratches.

dnicks17 is offline  
Old
06-29-2013, 02:12 AM
  #912
Replacement
Now with 9% more zen
 
Replacement's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Hockey Hell
Country: Canada
Posts: 34,712
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dnicks17 View Post
Paajarvi has actually played more games than both Eberle or Gagner in the last three years.

He's only missed 11 games and some are probably due to travel and a few healthy scratches.
If you want to count Euro games Gagner has played around 30 this year as well if I recall.

But I'm looking at games on this side of the pond and more importantly in the show. MPS will represent good health value here when he stays in this here lineup.

Replacement is offline  
Old
06-29-2013, 02:15 AM
  #913
dnicks17
Moderator
.
 
dnicks17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,903
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
If you want to count Euro games Gagner has played around 30 this year as well if I recall.

But I'm looking at games on this side of the pond and more importantly in the show. MPS will represent good health value here when he stays in this here lineup.
I was just counting Paajarvi's NHL/AHL games.

You can't really knock his health for playing AHL games. He's still healthy after all.

dnicks17 is offline  
Old
06-29-2013, 02:17 AM
  #914
Replacement
Now with 9% more zen
 
Replacement's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Hockey Hell
Country: Canada
Posts: 34,712
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dnicks17 View Post
I was just counting Paajarvi's NHL/AHL games.

You can't really knock his health for playing AHL games. He's still healthy after all.
I'm not. But I want him to be ready and healthy in this lineup and with appreciable minutes. Some of his health can be explained by not getting regular shifts in some of his incarnations here and or sometimes playing tentative when he is here (he's coming around)
Jones presence not withstanding its hard enough to get injured on the bench..


Last edited by Replacement: 06-29-2013 at 02:23 AM.
Replacement is offline  
Old
06-29-2013, 02:23 AM
  #915
dnicks17
Moderator
.
 
dnicks17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,903
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
I'm not. But I want him to be ready and healthy in this lineup and with appreciable minutes. Some of his health can be explained by not getting regular shifts in some of his incarnations here.
Jones presence not withstanding its hard enough to get injured on the bench..
Gotcha. The less shifts part does make some sense too.

Should be interesting to see how he handles a full season next season if he keeps on driving the net like he was this season. He was taking some pretty good shots(that one crosscheck in Calgary sticks out in my mind) this year.

dnicks17 is offline  
Old
06-29-2013, 02:28 AM
  #916
Replacement
Now with 9% more zen
 
Replacement's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Hockey Hell
Country: Canada
Posts: 34,712
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dnicks17 View Post
Gotcha. The less shifts part does make some sense too.

Should be interesting to see how he handles a full season next season if he keeps on driving the net like he was this season. He was taking some pretty good shots(that one crosscheck in Calgary sticks out in my mind) this year.
Yeah, I liked his game this year. So much better than season before. Paajarvi showed a lot more determination getting in some greasy areas. Gagner does like to run a downlow go to the net shop though so its a good influence.

Replacement is offline  
Old
06-29-2013, 02:39 AM
  #917
alphahelix
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,294
vCash: 500
I suspect Paajarvi is gone this weekend with the 37th overall and some prospect... or at least, if that were the price for Coburn, we'd do it. Paajarvi is the next "young forward" on the roster after "the untouchables" whose name might still carry some cachet around the league.

alphahelix is offline  
Old
06-29-2013, 02:58 AM
  #918
oilexport
Registered User
 
oilexport's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 804
vCash: 500
need meat, get rid of Gagner now, useless 2nd line center that overachieved for new contract. Good player that cannot do well here so lets get someone else that can play with size, go with high draft pick for gagner...

oilexport is offline  
Old
06-29-2013, 03:00 AM
  #919
Oiltankjob Fail
Eakins GTFO
 
Oiltankjob Fail's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 5,384
vCash: 500
Gagner goa on average on pk was number 1 in the league for Centers . Not to shabby

Oiltankjob Fail is offline  
Old
06-29-2013, 03:07 AM
  #920
oilexport
Registered User
 
oilexport's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 804
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oiltankjob 4 93 64 View Post
Gagner goa on average on pk was number 1 in the league for Centers . Not to shabby
how many people wined about this guy and his flaws, so he does well in a contract year...just like horc and all the other players with no consistancy that cashed in when it was adventageous to do so

oilexport is offline  
Old
06-29-2013, 03:13 AM
  #921
Bryanbryoil
Moderator
I Know A Thing Or 6
 
Bryanbryoil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: About Winning
Posts: 50,403
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oiltankjob 4 93 64 View Post
Gagner goa on average on pk was number 1 in the league for Centers . Not to shabby
And that's bound to be the case going forward with him as our #1 PK C and as such he'll lead us to a Stanley Cup based on his incredible PKing alone. So where was he in relation to all of the centers in the league when it came to PK minutes? Remember when Paajarvi was on his line and they didn't get scored on until the floodgates opened? While I actually didn't mind Sam's PK work, let's not portray him as if he's some kind of PK master.

__________________
Treat Others As You Would Like To Be Treated
Bryanbryoil is offline  
Old
06-29-2013, 03:17 AM
  #922
Oiltankjob Fail
Eakins GTFO
 
Oiltankjob Fail's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 5,384
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
And that's bound to be the case going forward with him as our #1 PK C and as such he'll lead us to a Stanley Cup based on his incredible PKing alone. So where was he in relation to all of the centers in the league when it came to PK minutes? Remember when Paajarvi was on his line and they didn't get scored on until the floodgates opened? While I actually didn't mind Sam's PK work, let's not portray him as if he's some kind of PK master.
Just pointing it out where did you get portraying him as a pk master? Was it not to shabby comment anyways I want Gagner signed long term he is still trending up.

Oiltankjob Fail is offline  
Old
06-29-2013, 03:17 AM
  #923
oilwings
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: 604 Area
Country: Canada
Posts: 985
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by StanDarsh View Post
Gagner at 5 mill with any term will make it impossible to keep all the young core around. One of them will have to go, can't have Yak at 6,Nuge 6, Hall 6, Eberle 6 Gagner 5 and Shultz at whatever he will get. Gagner is no where near a 5 mill player. If he gets that, it will be terrible. I'd trade him for a guy like Backlund who is making peanuts. An upgrade at this point is not commiting cap suicide.
I agree and disagree. I agree Gagner is not a 5M player. I disagree that we can't pay a 2C 5M or more. If our top 6 players get a combined salary of 35-36M then we are fine. The cap is going to go back up to 80M. Schultz will probably get a similar contract to Voynov/Carlson/Josi, etc... (4.25-4.5M)

oilwings is offline  
Old
06-29-2013, 09:52 AM
  #924
Psycho Dad
Oil Kings
 
Psycho Dad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Sherwood Park
Posts: 9,913
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Jones presence not withstanding its hard enough to get injured on the bench..
Well, what you do, see, is put your hand on the boards and ignore your linemates coming in for line changes!

Psycho Dad is offline  
Old
07-01-2013, 07:46 PM
  #925
PeakOil
Loyal To The Oil
 
PeakOil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,760
vCash: 500
So what's going on with Gagner, he wasn't traded at the draft, nor did we get a centre which makes me think we're gonna need him even more than we did before.

What's the deadline for signing RFA's (before they can get offersheeted), the 5th I'm assuming? Gotta think if we want to keep him we'll get something done before that.

PeakOil is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:01 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.