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Playoff All-Star Teams

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06-27-2013, 11:29 AM
  #126
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eva, I believe you hurt the DRW cause more than help it.

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06-27-2013, 02:18 PM
  #127
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While he only made it to the second round, Zetterberg did play 14 games. That's, what, one shy of Mario Lemieux in 1992? I'm not saying he deserves it more than Kane, Krecji, Bickell, or Hossa, but yeah, he would deserve it more than Toews.

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06-27-2013, 07:08 PM
  #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
While he only made it to the second round, Zetterberg did play 14 games. That's, what, one shy of Mario Lemieux in 1992? I'm not saying he deserves it more than Kane, Krecji, Bickell, or Hossa, but yeah, he would deserve it more than Toews.
So Toews outplaying Mike Richards and largely shutting down the hottest line in the playoffs in the final is worth nothing, correct? Are the first and second rounds of the playoffs now of greater importance than the last two rounds?

If this becomes the standard, most playoff AST are going to be filled up with guys who lit it up in the first round and ended up losing.

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06-27-2013, 07:17 PM
  #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post
So Toews outplaying Mike Richards and largely shutting down the hottest line in the playoffs in the final is worth nothing, correct? Are the first and second rounds of the playoffs now of greater importance than the last two rounds?

If this becomes the standard, most playoff AST are going to be filled up with guys who lit it up in the first round and ended up losing.
I never said it meant nothing, but I don't believe it exemplified better play than what we saw from Zetterberg.

But your exaggerations are always welcome in our discourse.

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Old
06-27-2013, 07:35 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
I never said it meant nothing, but I don't believe it exemplified better play than what we saw from Zetterberg.

But your exaggerations are always welcome in our discourse.
It can't mean much if we're seriously entertaining the idea that the number one center on a team that won a single playoff round had a better overall playoff than the number one center on the team that won the Cup.

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06-27-2013, 07:54 PM
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post
It can't mean much if we're seriously entertaining the idea that the number one center on a team that won a single playoff round had a better overall playoff than the number one center on the team that won the Cup.
You're acting like 14 games isn't enough to establish an identity in a playoff run. It wasn't a first-round sweep; he played a lot of hockey against #1 and #2 seeds.

Toews was criticized in this run. Often. And you can talk about him stopping Mike Richards in Game 1 all you want, but that's about 13 games fewer than Zetterberg played, so I don't know why that is the go-to argument for Toews.

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06-28-2013, 03:02 AM
  #132
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The problem with playoffs is that it's such a small sample size that it's often misleading to gauge purely off old-fashioned Gs, As, and Ps. Advanced stats gives us a lot more information on who was playing well and who might've just had lots of luck.

Zetterberg: -6.73 Corsi, 1.822 Rel QoC, 10.58 team shooting % 5v5
Toews: 28.15 Corsi, -0.693 Rel QoC, 5.38 team shooting % 5v5

Yeah, Zetterberg got much tougher matchups, but Toews was absolutely running roughshod over anyone that went against him. He just wasn't getting the breaks Zetterberg was.

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06-28-2013, 06:38 AM
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
While he only made it to the second round, Zetterberg did play 14 games. That's, what, one shy of Mario Lemieux in 1992?

The Pens only played 21 games to take the Cup though and...

Record without Mario 3-3
Record with Mario 13-2

So lets compare
Mario GP-15 G-16 A-18 Pts-34 Team-13-2
Zett GP-14 G-4 A-8 Pts-12 Team- 7-7


This aint '93 Gilmour vs Gretzky we're talking about here, not even remotely close!

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06-28-2013, 06:57 AM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
The Pens only played 21 games to take the Cup though and...

Record without Mario 3-3
Record with Mario 13-2

So lets compare
Mario GP-15 G-16 A-18 Pts-34 Team-13-2
Zett GP-14 G-4 A-8 Pts-12 Team- 7-7


This aint '93 Gilmour vs Gretzky we're talking about here, not even remotely close!
I never said he was as good as Mario Lemieux. I never said he was as good as Doug Gilmour. I never said he was as good as Kane, Krecji, Bickell, or Hossa. All I've said is that 14 games is enough to warrant consideration (because more than anything, that's what was being attacked) and that he was better than Toews (who shouldn't be anywhere near a 2013 playoff All-Star Team).

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06-28-2013, 07:38 AM
  #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
I never said he was as good as Mario Lemieux. I never said he was as good as Doug Gilmour. I never said he was as good as Kane, Krecji, Bickell, or Hossa. All I've said is that 14 games is enough to warrant consideration (because more than anything, that's what was being attacked) and that he was better than Toews (who shouldn't be anywhere near a 2013 playoff All-Star Team).
Maybe but you generally don't make the All-star team after missing half the season.
Crosby was easily the best player in his 41 games in 10/11 but that didn't stop Sedin and Stamkos from garnering the First and Second all-star nods.

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06-28-2013, 08:03 AM
  #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
You're acting like 14 games isn't enough to establish an identity in a playoff run. It wasn't a first-round sweep; he played a lot of hockey against #1 and #2 seeds.
This isn't about not have enough of a sample size to evaluate him, I don't think anyone is disputing he played well. Zetterberg played 60% of the amount of games Toews played. The equivalent of 50 games in a season if we consider Toews to have played a full season. How often does a player with 50 GP in the regular season make the AST? Never.

Quote:
Toews was criticized in this run. Often. And you can talk about him stopping Mike Richards in Game 1 all you want, but that's about 13 games fewer than Zetterberg played, so I don't know why that is the go-to argument for Toews.
The go-to argument for Toews is that he won his matchup in almost every game of the post-season, save for three games against Detroit that are being used to pump Zetterberg's tires. The stat worshippers and bitter fantasy geeks that took him 1st in their pool criticized Toews often. People with a better handle on things tended to realize his job was not to score X number of points, but to win a head-to-head matchup with opposing centermen in whatever way his coach saw fit.

Chicago has tons of guys to score points, more than any team they faced. If Toews can shut down the opposing team's top line, Chicago is on the good side of a mismatch as far as secondary scoring goes. Throughout the playoffs no opposing centermen were able to get loose offensively against Toews. He finished +9 in 23 games going against several of the league's best centermen. It's a myth that he had a poor playoff run. I can guaranteed that if he'd pumped in a few goals in garbage time to make the counting stats look prettier nobody would have had any criticisms.

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Old
06-28-2013, 08:22 AM
  #137
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Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post

The go-to argument for Toews is that he won his matchup in almost every game of the post-season, save for three games against Detroit that are being used to pump Zetterberg's tires.
Pretty much sums it up.

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06-28-2013, 11:39 AM
  #138
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Pretty much doesn't.

I am shaking my head in despair at the argument for Zetterberg on this team. That said, the argument that Toews was better 4 times than Zetterberg because his team won 4-3 is insane. I don't even want to argue this again, but its a bloody 20+ person team, guys!

Everytime Gretzky's team got bounced, the other team's number 1 center was better than him, then.

Jim Paek is 2 for 2 in Rings:years played. I think he is better than Orr

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06-28-2013, 02:05 PM
  #139
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Pretty much doesn't.

I am shaking my head in despair at the argument for Zetterberg on this team. That said, the argument that Toews was better 4 times than Zetterberg because his team won 4-3 is insane. I don't even want to argue this again, but its a bloody 20+ person team, guys!

Everytime Gretzky's team got bounced, the other team's number 1 center was better than him, then.

Jim Paek is 2 for 2 in Rings:years played. I think he is better than Orr
Yes.

And again, Zetterberg is not on my All-Star Team; I just think he was better than Toews. And the fact that Toews shutdown a player who missed 3 games with a concussion and has a high Corsi isn't going to change my mind. He also ranked first-place among skaters in GVT this year, so frankly, I'm not buying that advanced stats are a better portrayal of reality than his own teammates speaking out about how he needed to score some damn goals.

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06-28-2013, 03:14 PM
  #140
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For the record, I think Zetterberg is the best playoff performer since probably Forsberg, although Sid is better points-wise and maybe he's number 1. Anyways, those 3 stand out to me in the last 15 years. I think when we go the sample size route, you sort of have to judge a guy by 82 games or more. We get really over-excited about 7 games here or there, and team success (in a game that is largely determined by inches, bounces, and refs) plays way too big a role in these emotional ratings. I remember Kesler went from dog, to God, back to dog in Vancouver's last good run.

So, to me, Zetterberg is a playoff great, and he was just as good as always, in my eyes, this year.

That said, Conn Smythe's and hypothetical Playoff AS Teams are based totally off team success, and what have you done lately. Right or wrong, it is insanity (and Eva's homerism) to include Zetts in these talks, just based on his team's success, and that he isn't at the top of the scoring list.

Toews doesn't belong on this list, either. Mostly because he was not very good. At his best this playoffs he was a functioning number 1 center on a deep, balanced, winning team. AT his worst he was getting a hug and a handjob from Seabrook in the penalty box while Detroit nearly pulled off a massive upset, largely due to his Toews' inability to even hang with #40.

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06-29-2013, 09:58 AM
  #141
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So eva, based on the logic of Zetterberg>Toews, I can expect that Curtis Joseph would be your vote for playoff all-star goalie in 1997 and 1998, correct?

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06-29-2013, 12:58 PM
  #142
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So eva, based on the logic of Zetterberg>Toews, I can expect that Curtis Joseph would be your vote for playoff all-star goalie in 1997 and 1998, correct?
Realistically, is there a better choice for 2nd Team in 1993 than Curtis Joseph?

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06-29-2013, 01:55 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Realistically, is there a better choice for 2nd Team in 1993 than Curtis Joseph?
Nope.
He was the only reason they beat the Hawks as "easily" as they did and the only reason why the Leaf series went 7.

I'd even say he was better than Roy in the first 2 rounds.

The old saying "Saw more rubber than a dead skunk on the Trans-Canada highway" was never more true than CuJo in the '93 playoffs.

Played only 11 games, averaged 39.8 shots against per game and 37.4 saves per game, 0.938S% including 2 SOs.

If you ignore the Leaf 6-0 blowout in game 7 when his team forgot to show up...40.2 shots per game, 38.1 saves per game, 0.948S% in 10 games.

It was a hell of a display!

And I will never forget when Clark ripped his mask off in the Leaf series, scary stuff.


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06-30-2013, 04:12 AM
  #144
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Nope.
He was the only reason they beat the Hawks as "easily" as they did and the only reason why the Leaf series went 7.

I'd even say he was better than Roy in the first 2 rounds.

The old saying "Saw more rubber than a dead skunk on the Trans-Canada highway" was never more true than CuJo in the '93 playoffs.

Played only 11 games, averaged 39.8 shots against per game and 37.4 saves per game, 0.938S% including 2 SOs.

If you ignore the Leaf 6-0 blowout in game 7 when his team forgot to show up...40.2 shots per game, 38.1 saves per game, 0.948S% in 10 games.

It was a hell of a display!

And I will never forget when Clark ripped his mask off in the Leaf series, scary stuff.
I believe that was the post-season after he set the record for most saves in a season, wasn't it?

EDIT: Yes, it was. He then broke the record again the following season, like Luongo did in 2004-06.

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07-02-2013, 02:01 AM
  #145
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Kreiji-Toews-Kane

Keith-Oduya

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Old
08-17-2013, 05:26 AM
  #146
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1989
Brian Propp - Doug Gilmour - Joe Mullen
Al MacInnis - Mark Howe
Mike Vernon

1988
Esa Tikkanen - Wayne Gretzky - Jari Kurri
Raymond Bourque - Steve Smith
Grant Fuhr

1987
Brian Propp - Wayne Gretzky - Jari Kurri
Mark Howe - Larry Robinson
Ron Hextall

1986
Mats Naslund - Doug Gilmour - Joe Mullen
Al MacInnis - Larry Robinson
Patrick Roy

1985
Daryl Sutter - Wayne Gretzky- Jari Kurri
Paul Coffey - Charlie Huddy
Pelle Lindbergh

1984
Mark Messier - Wayne Gretzky - Jari Kurri
Paul Coffey - Denis Potvin
Grant Fuhr

1983
Mark Messier - Wayne Gretzky - Mike Bossy
Denis Potvin - Ken Morrow
Billy Smith

1982
Bob Bourne - Bryan Trottier - Mike Bossy
Denis Potvin - Stefan Persson
Billy Smith
[Canucks fan chiming in to say Thomas Gradin, Stan Smyl, Lars Lindgren & Richard Brodeur make the 2nd All-Star team fer shure]

1981
Steve Payne - Butch Goring - Mike Bossy
Denis Potvin - Barry Beck
Billy Smith

1980
Bill Barber - Bryan Trottier - Mike Bossy
Denis Potvin - Stefan Persson
Billy Smith

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