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Dream Draft: Better player at #15, Bossy or Sakic?

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Old
06-29-2013, 08:19 AM
  #76
ted1971
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Bossy was an electric Goal Scorer. He would've had 850-900 Goals if He didn't get hurt. Still the most dangerous Scorer of all time.

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06-29-2013, 09:20 AM
  #77
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Sakic

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06-29-2013, 09:24 AM
  #78
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As I see Joe Sakic is one of the most underrated players in history. He never became that appreciated because he played so much of his career in a small hockey market (Colorado).

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06-29-2013, 09:40 AM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S E P H View Post
Mike Bossy, best player ever picked at the number fifteen in 1977. Then I remember that Joe Sakic was picked at #15 as well. I am not trying to sound like a homer, but was Bossy that much better than Sakic?
Yes. As great as Sakic was, Bossy was better.


Quote:
And if so by how?

Four time Stanley Cup Champion.
First player to tie the 50 in 50 record.
Scored 53 goals in 73 games during his rookie season.
Highest goals-per-game average over a career in the modern era - .762 goals per game.
Scored 1126 points in only 752 games. Even in his last, injury shortened, season he had 75 points - 38 goals and 37 assists - in just 63 games (Sakic scored 1641 points but it took him 1378 games, or almost twice as many, to accomplish that).
Most consecutive 50+ goal seasons - 9.
Most 50+ goal seasons - 9 (tied with Gretzky).
Most 60+ goal seasons - 5 (tied with Gretzky).

Just think about the last two - not even Lemieux did that.

He also won the Calder, Conn Smythe, and Lady Byng (three times).


I know Wikipedia is generally crap but it can sometimes be an easy source for quick lists so here is a quick synopsis of Bossy's career from Wikipedia:


"Here is a selected list of other official NHL record categories where Bossy was once the record-holder and/or is ranked very highly:

Goals, career: 20th all-time with 573; only Mario Lemieux and Wayne Gretzky reached 500 in fewer games

Goals, regular season and playoffs combined, one season: seventh all-time with 85 (was a record at the time it was achieved)

Assists by a right wing, one season: second all-time with 83 (was a record at the time it was achieved)

Points by a right wing, one season: second all time with 147 (was a record at the time it was achieved)

Goals by a rookie, one season: second all-time with 53 (was a record at the time it was achieved)

100+ point seasons, career: fourth all-time with 7

Goals per game, playoffs, career: second all-time with .659

Goals per game, regular season and playoffs combined, career: second all-time with .747

Points per game, career: third all-time

Assists per game, career: seventeenth all-time

Shooting percentage, career: fourth all-time with 21.18%

Hat tricks, one season: tied for third all-time with 9 (was a record at the time it was achieved)

Hat tricks, career: third all-time with 39

Bossy has several significant career achievements that are not official NHL records. He reached 100 career goals faster (in terms of career games played) than any other player in modern NHL history, requiring just 129 games to accomplish this (Joe Malone-61, Newsy Lalonde-69, Cy Denneny-86, Babe Dye-86, Reg Noble-109 & Frank Nighbor-125 had previously scored 100 goals in fewer games).

He was also the fastest to various other milestones such as 200 (255 GP), 300 (381 GP), 400 (506 GP) and 500 (647 GP) goals at the time he achieved them, but currently ranks behind Wayne Gretzky and Mario Lemieux in most of these categories.

In the 198081 NHL season, he scored 50 goals in the first 50 games of the season - only the second player, and the first in almost 40 years, to achieve this. He remains one of only five players who can claim to have accomplished this.

He is the only player to score 17 goals in three consecutive playoff years.
"





Quote:
So the question I ask is if your team is at 15th overall and you had a chance of choosing Sakic or Bossy who would you pick (based on their careers)?

I loved Bossy and would pick him. When injuries are factored in I would have to give Sakic some serious consideration, but only because Bossy's career was cut short by back injuries.

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06-29-2013, 09:43 AM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakic19Duchene9 View Post

Sakic, no argument in the world will change my opinion.

Why let facts get in the way of uninformed opinion eh?


Quote:
I wasn't old enough to watch Bossy.

In other words, you don't know what you're talking about.

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06-29-2013, 09:43 AM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan-o16 View Post
If 'better overall' means 'contributed more to his team winning', I'd say that Bossy was better than Trottier.

Bossy scored 17 goals three straight years in the playoffs. In '82 and '83, Trottier was already noticeably declining as a player. He just didn't have the jump anymore.

Let's go through this again. Bossy scored 17 goals in the playoffs THREE times consecutively. Gretzky did it once. Lemieux never did it. Sakic had 18 once. Kurri had 19 once.

In 1983, Bossy scored the GWG in every game in the conference finals against Boston. The guy was magical in the playoffs. He was an utterly dominant force. Any opposing fan at the time, if the game was tied, knew that it was more likely than not that Bossy would put the Isles in the lead. That's not an exaggeration.

I sometimes think that Bossy gets discounted because he's, frankly, uncharismatic. He's a bland, somewhat ugly dude, who criticizes the NHL for being overly violent, which people don't like.
Mike Bossy was only better than Bryan Trottier at one thing, scoring goals. Trottier was MUCH better at everything else. He's one of the best two-way centers of all time. I guess it depends what you prefer, but I'll take the guy who is superb offensively and defensively, excellent at face-offs and can hit the **** out of a guy. It's not like Trottier didn't get the points either. Al Arbour said he wouldn't trade Trottier for Wayne Gretzky, which says a lot about Trottier coming from one of the best coaches of all time.

Okay since Mike Bossy only played till he was 30 years old, I tallied up Bryan Trottier's stats till he was 30.

Mike Bossy: 10 seasons
GP: 752
Goals: 573
Assists: 553
Points: 1126
+/-: +381

Bryan Trottier: 12 seasons
GP: 914
Goals: 440
Assists: 762
Points: 1201
+/-: +478

Obv Trottier has more points bc he played more games.

Also, you act like Bryan Trottier wasn't that impressive in the playoffs, here are the stats during the 4 years the Islanders won the cup.

Mike Bossy:
GP: 72
Goals: 61
Assists: 50
Points: 111

Bryan Trottier:
GP: 75
Goals: 37
Assists: 70
Points: 107

I'll just have to agree to disagree with you. Although Bossy scores more points, Trottier is more important bc what he does besides scoring points. His overall game was definitely better IMO.

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06-29-2013, 09:47 AM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Mike Bossy played at the exact same time as Wayne Gretzky and was never close to him.

You might want to check the facts. He was as close to Gretzky as anyone other than God himself could be. He is still tied with Gretzky for a couple of records.

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06-29-2013, 09:54 AM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post

He likely was starting his decline even without injuries

His stats prove that to be incorrect:

1982-83: 60 goals
1983-84: 51 goals
1984-85: 58 goals
1985-86: 61 goals
1986-87: 38 goals (his final, injury shortened season)


So based on his goal totals, he wasn't starting his decline and actually increased his goal production before that final season.

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06-29-2013, 09:58 AM
  #84
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Mike Bossy. Simply an amazing offensive force.

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06-29-2013, 10:09 AM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post

That is without thouching the offensive tools Gretzky had BESIDES goalscoring.

Bossy had 573 goals and 553 assists. He obviously had offensive tools besides goal scoring too.

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06-29-2013, 10:12 AM
  #86
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06-29-2013, 11:29 AM
  #87
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colchar View Post
You might want to check the facts. He was as close to Gretzky as anyone other than God himself could be. He is still tied with Gretzky for a couple of records.
You might want to check the facts, yourself. They are posted in post 26.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboy Dan
Over the same period, Gretzky's GPG is a much higher .859. compared to Bossy's .762. It really wasn't close, contrary to what many Islander fans will lead you to believe.
And that's just goals - Gretzky blew Bossy (and everyone else) out of the water when it came to assists (and therefore, points).

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06-29-2013, 11:35 AM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colchar View Post
Bossy had 573 goals and 553 assists. He obviously had offensive tools besides goal scoring too.
I never said he didn't. Actually if you read my posts you can see me giving Bossy a compliment about his well-rounded offensive abilities.

But he was no Gretzky offensively and Gretzky was better goal-scorer too. That is a solid reason why Bossy shouldn't be considered in the same category as Grezky.

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06-29-2013, 11:41 AM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colchar View Post
His stats prove that to be incorrect:

1982-83: 60 goals
1983-84: 51 goals
1984-85: 58 goals
1985-86: 61 goals
1986-87: 38 goals (his final, injury shortened season)


So based on his goal totals, he wasn't starting his decline and actually increased his goal production before that final season.
No they don't.

The fact is that Bossy would have MOST LIKELY been looking at decline after those years. Maybe 1-3 years of prime/peak offense but most likely after that he would have gone through the same kind of career trajectory as any other player in the history of sports.

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06-29-2013, 11:45 AM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colchar View Post
Bossy had 573 goals and 553 assists. He obviously had offensive tools besides goal scoring too.
Top 5 scorers from 1979-80 to 1986-87, when Bossy and Gretzky were both in the league at the same time (this is all but the first two years of Bossy's career):

nameGPgoalsassistspointsGPGAPGPPP
Gretzky63254397715200.861.552.41
Bossy5994514589090.750.761.52
Dionne6253665268920.590.841.43
Stastny5272755157900.520.981.50
Trottier6052854937780.470.811.29

There is no case that Bossy was close to Gretzky as an overall player.

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06-29-2013, 02:15 PM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TOML View Post
Yeah? Well, he's overrated in terms of 2-way ability. No Selke's. I'm not putting him in a defensive role over a lot of players currently and historically. Why? Well, typically, excellent 2-way-type guys don't register a minus 40 season, no matter the team.
So is Ron Francis overrated in terms of 2-way ability? He's a career -10.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Layne Staley View Post
This.Bossy is the best goal scorer in league history.573 goals in 752 games are you kidding me?!Bossy literally averaged 60 goals a year!

Every season except his last one Bossy scored 50+ goals a season.He scored 50+ goals his first 9 seasons of his career.Bossy = best goal scorer in league history ainec.It should be renamed the Mike Bossy trophy not Rocket Richard.
Richard led the league in goals 5 times compared to just 2 for Bossy so no...

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06-29-2013, 03:04 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Top 5 scorers from 1979-80 to 1986-87, when Bossy and Gretzky were both in the league at the same time (this is all but the first two years of Bossy's career):

nameGPgoalsassistspointsGPGAPGPPP
Gretzky63254397715200.861.552.41
Bossy5994514589090.750.761.52
Dionne6253665268920.590.841.43
Stastny5272755157900.520.981.50
Trottier6052854937780.470.811.29

There is no case that Bossy was close to Gretzky as an overall player.
I agree that Bossy wasn't on the same level as Gretz except in goal scoring.

However, this thread is about Bossy vs Sakic and if we use the same metric and compare only the years Gretz and Sakic were in the league together...

nameGPgoalsassistspointsGPGAPGPPP
Gretzky79131187711880.391.111.50
Yzerman82342862510730.520.761.30
Oates79025075510050.320.961.27
Hull7915534279800.700.541.24
Sakic7923756049790.470.761.24

Sakic isn't facing Gretzky's ridiculous peak like Bossy did and Gretz is still quite ahead and Bossy quite obviously does better against the rest of the field than Sakic does.


Bossy at #15 over Sakic without the slightest hesitation for me.

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06-29-2013, 03:04 PM
  #93
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Sakic everytime. Nothing to do with injuries. All around game, better d, better playmaking, great captain, and his goal scoring isn't even a full step behind Bossy's when we look at era (which people don't like to do on this board)

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06-29-2013, 03:18 PM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tombombadil View Post
Sakic everytime. Nothing to do with injuries. All around game, better d, better playmaking, great captain, and his goal scoring isn't even a full step behind Bossy's when we look at era (which people don't like to do on this board)
Era or not, even using adjusted stats, Bossy is still pounding out 2 50, 7 40 and a 30 goal season.
Compared to Sakic's 1 50, 3 40 and 8 30 goal seasons.

Sorry but that's a step behind period!

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06-29-2013, 03:31 PM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
I agree that Bossy wasn't on the same level as Gretz except in goal scoring.
Then we don't agree, because Bossy was not on Gretzky's level as a goal scorer. The statistical gap in favor of Gretzky is not small.

Quote:
However, this thread is about Bossy vs Sakic and if we use the same metric and compare only the years Gretz and Sakic were in the league together...

nameGPgoalsassistspointsGPGAPGPPP
Gretzky79131187711880.391.111.50
Yzerman82342862510730.520.761.30
Oates79025075510050.320.961.27
Hull7915534279800.700.541.24
Sakic7923756049790.470.761.24

Sakic isn't facing Gretzky's ridiculous peak like Bossy did and Gretz is still quite ahead and Bossy quite obviously does better against the rest of the field than Sakic does.


Bossy at #15 over Sakic without the slightest hesitation for me.
I agree that Bossy was a better offensive player than Sakic, no debate there. (As an overall player, it gets murkier). But this comparison isn't exactly fair to Sakic either - you mention Gretzky wasn't really at his peak during the time frame he overlapped with Sakic, but Sakic had some of his best years (including his absolute best) after 1998. Bossy and Gretzky's primes overlapped pretty much exactly. Anyway, I was answering the claim that when healthy Bossy was close to Gretzky, and no, he really wasn't.

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06-29-2013, 03:36 PM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Era or not, even using adjusted stats, Bossy is still pounding out 2 50, 7 40 and a 30 goal season.
Compared to Sakic's 1 50, 3 40 and 8 30 goal seasons.

Sorry but that's a step behind period!
Agree with you here - purely as a goal scorer, Bossy is way ahead of Sakic.

Bossy top 10 goals

1977-78 NHL 53 (2)
1978-79 NHL 69 (1)
1979-80 NHL 51 (5)
1980-81 NHL 68 (1)
1981-82 NHL 64 (2)
1982-83 NHL 60 (3)
1983-84 NHL 51 (7)
1984-85 NHL 58 (3)
1985-86 NHL 61 (2)

Bossy top 10 assists

1978-79 NHL 57 (9)
1981-82 NHL 83 (4)
1983-84 NHL 67 (6)

Bossy top 10 points

1977-78 NHL 91 (6)
1978-79 NHL 126 (4)
1980-81 NHL 119 (4)
1981-82 NHL 147 (2)
1982-83 NHL 118 (4)
1983-84 NHL 118 (5)
1984-85 NHL 117 (6)
1985-86 NHL 123 (5)

Sakic top 10 goals

1990-91 NHL 48 (6)
1995-96 NHL 51 (5)
1998-99 NHL 41 (6)
2000-01 NHL 54 (2)
2003-04 NHL 33 (10)

Sakic top 10 assists

1991-92 NHL 65 (9)
1994-95 NHL 43 (3)
1995-96 NHL 69 (8)
1998-99 NHL 55 (5)
1999-00 NHL 53 (4)
2000-01 NHL 64 (5)
2001-02 NHL 53 (3)
2003-04 NHL 54 (4)
2006-07 NHL 64 (6)

Sakic top 10 points

1989-90 NHL 102 (10)
1990-91 NHL 109 (6)
1994-95 NHL 62 (4)
1995-96 NHL 120 (3)
1998-99 NHL 96 (5)
1999-00 NHL 81 (8)
2000-01 NHL 118 (2)
2001-02 NHL 79 (5)
2003-04 NHL 87 (2)
2006-07 NHL 100 (6)

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06-29-2013, 03:42 PM
  #97
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Sakic. Pretty much the same in terms of elite scoring finishes despite playing in a deeper era, at his best he was a great 2-way player, and finally he was a C, which is important to me in a comparison between two guys that are so close.

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06-29-2013, 04:11 PM
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Top 5 scorers from 1979-80 to 1986-87, when Bossy and Gretzky were both in the league at the same time (this is all but the first two years of Bossy's career):

nameGPgoalsassistspointsGPGAPGPPP
Gretzky63254397715200.861.552.41
Bossy5994514589090.750.761.52
Dionne6253665268920.590.841.43
Stastny5272755157900.520.981.50
Trottier6052854937780.470.811.29

There is no case that Bossy was close to Gretzky as an overall player.
there actually appears to be a case for Stastny over Bossy, production-wise. PPG being nearly even, and having no Trottier or Potvin....

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06-29-2013, 04:25 PM
  #99
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I agree with Rhiessan and TDMM here.

As a goal scorer Bossy was superior to Sakic. Considering the competition. Sakic went agains Bure, Selanne, occasional Lemieux, Jagr..

Bossy went agains Kurri and the one other dude.

Fact of the matter is, Bossy was second best goal scorer from the 80s, right after Gretzky.

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06-29-2013, 04:28 PM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tombombadil View Post
there actually appears to be a case for Stastny over Bossy, production-wise. PPG being nearly even, and having no Trottier or Potvin....
Stastny wasn't exactly behind the eight ball playing with his brothers, especially Anton, as well as Goulet.

And in Bossy's best season of 147 points, Potvin missed a 1/4 of the season.

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