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Dream Draft: Better player at #15, Bossy or Sakic?

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Old
06-29-2013, 04:44 PM
  #101
Rhiessan71
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Then we don't agree, because Bossy was not on Gretzky's level as a goal scorer. The statistical gap in favor of Gretzky is not small.
I see it different.

I see Gretzky's 2 huge 92 and 87 goal seasons plus Bossy's last 3/4 season with 38 as the difference.

In those 3 seasons Gretz has 241G in 233GP to Bossy's 153G in 210GP

The other 7 seasons Bossy goes 298G in 389GP (0.77GpG) to Gretzky's 302G in 399GP (0.76GpG).

It's a lot closer than at first glance.

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06-29-2013, 04:46 PM
  #102
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Bossy and Stastny seem to be basically even as regular season point producers, but Bossy was a much better goal scorer (which definitely matters when points are close), and Bossy has a much better playoff record. Not that Stastny was necessarily bad in the playoffs, but Bossy's playoff record is outstanding (indeed, I think playoffs are Bossy's only case over his teammate Trottier).

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06-29-2013, 04:58 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Stastny wasn't exactly behind the eight ball playing with his brothers, especially Anton, as well as Goulet.

And in Bossy's best season of 147 points, Potvin missed a 1/4 of the season.
ok, it was an observation based on some revealing numbers, nothing more.

But I will go out and assume that if I make a Marion + Anton Stastny vs Trottier + Gillies poll, it will get shut down and i will be laughed at. Ditto Goulet, who was very good, vs. Trottier. Ditto Mario Marois vs Potvin.

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06-29-2013, 05:17 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by tombombadil View Post
ok, it was an observation based on some revealing numbers, nothing more.

But I will go out and assume that if I make a Marion + Anton Stastny vs Trottier + Gillies poll, it will get shut down and i will be laughed at. Ditto Goulet, who was very good, vs. Trottier. Ditto Mario Marois vs Potvin.
And so what if you did?

How does that change the argument for Sakic vs Bossy?
Sakic wasn't exactly tooling around with scrubs either.

With the risk of allowing Eva a way in here, the only players that one could say pretty much had monstrous seasons on their own with little help were Yzerman in '89 by a pretty large gap and then Lemieux in '86.

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06-29-2013, 07:21 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
And so what if you did?

How does that change the argument for Sakic vs Bossy?
Sakic wasn't exactly tooling around with scrubs either.

With the risk of allowing Eva a way in here, the only players that one could say pretty much had monstrous seasons on their own with little help were Yzerman in '89 by a pretty large gap and then Lemieux in '86.
Following your thought, the only times a player scored 140+ points without a teammate scoring 95+ points are:

Wayne Gretzky, 1980-81
Mario Lemieux, 1985-86
Mario Lemieux, 1987-88
Steve Yzerman, 1988-89
Wayne Gretzky, 1990-91

Those are the five definitive "one-man monster" offensive seasons, with four Pearsons, four postseason all-star selections, and two Harts. It makes you wonder what kind of numbers Yzerman and Lemieux could have put up if they have a support system like Ovechkin, Toews/Kane, Stamkos, Crosby/Malkin, or even Gretzky have/had. Could either have legitimately challenged Gretzky as "best center" in the 80s with a strong supporting cast? Once Lemieux had an equal/better supporting cast, he blew past Gretzky. Age and injuries factored in partially, but Lemieux himself suffered injuries as well so "Gretzky was hurt" isn't a legitimate reason to explain why Lemieux passed him so dramatically.

It should be noted that even if you directly adjust (rather than factoring for variation in tiered scoring) the 140/100 values downward to the current average (~5.5 GPG) from 7.5GPG, which is at or near the GPG of late-80s seasons, then an active player would have to score 103 points without having a teammate reach 73.

Anyway, with regards to the topic, I rank Sakic ahead of Bossy. Both have legitimate arguments but their per-game offensive production was similar (accounting for era), and Sakic played twice as long, while also playing an excellent defensive game in the last two-thirds of his career. Bossy's numbers would have declined considerably had he played another 9-10 seasons and 750 games; he retired after 86-87, and scoring went down considerably over the next decade (League GPG was ~8 in 83-84, and ~6.5 ten seasons later in 93-94).

Sakic is definitely the pick.

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06-29-2013, 11:34 PM
  #106
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Since I'm a big career guy, I take Sakic. I realize that over the course of one season (or five), Bossy would be more useful and even bring your club more Cups. But as far as I can tell, he still needed someone like Trottier, while you can build your team around Sakic. As far as longevity goes, it's Sakic.

That said, Bossy was probably a better hockey player. The offensive gap was just too big.

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06-30-2013, 11:53 AM
  #107
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I find it quite humorous how anyone can place Sakic at level close to Bossy or any of the other legends of hockey such as Gretzky, Mario, Potvin, Orr et...

Each one of these guys had unique skill sets that were so far above anything we have seen in hockey TO THIS DAY that it appears unlikely or very rare that we see such unique talents in the game again. It is possible, but improbable. That's what makes these guys the immortals of hockey today. It had nothing to do with how many points they garnered, or how many years they played in the league, or even how the pundits ranked them by the end of their careers. It's the uncanny unique skill that each one of these guys possessed that made the greatest ever.

There is no doubt, that the greatest offensive player to have ever played the game was Wayne Gretzky followed closely by Mario Lemieux. Their stick handling, passing, speed, ability to fool goaltenders with their slick moves that made them phenomenal- and the points they garnered over the years reflect that.

But the reason why both of these players (Mario and Wayne) and why most old-timers name Bossy the greatest pure goal scorer the game has ever seen was his ability to shoot the puck. He is THE standard by which all snipers in the game will be judged against. His unique skill set is derived from the simple fact that a goal tender cannot possibly cover the entire net from a shooter whether its from 25 feet out or 50 feet out. After that its a game of probabilities. The probabilities were so stacked in Bossy's favor- that if he had an open lane- whether it be from 25 feet out to 50 feet away from the net, HE WILL BEAT YOU. If the goaltender left a even the slightest margin of space between the pads, glove side, left corner, right corner, top shelf etc.. It didn't matter- Bossy will find the open space. What may appear to todays players as an unlikely scoring opportunity- I'm sure would have appeared like a gaping black hole to Bossy.

His uncanny ability to release a cannon of a shot with such speed and deadly accuracy was what separates him from all players that came before or after him. Sure Hull and Stamkos can score goals, but none of them can shoot like Bossy. He even spoke about it in his interviews, the goals had to be pretty not sloppy, not left to chance. They had to be definitive and with purpose.

Unfortunately none of the videos that you can google from youtube really ever show you his phenomenal shot. They show his quick release and accuracy but few archived his ability to release the puck barreling down the right wing at full speed and still beat goaltenders with such regularity from 50 feet or more away from net. Al Arbour called his magical ability a "sleight of hand", like a magicians hands. The poor goaltender would see Bossy coming down an open lane from the right wing and do their best to set themselves and challenge him, but it didn't matter he would blast that puck behind them and it was hilarious seeing each one of them try to stop a Bossy slapshot. They would flail their legs and arms in all directions and before they were flopping on their backs the puck was already in the net. It was an amazing sight to see.

I was 15 years old when the Islanders won their last Cup. I have never seen, nor do I think I will ever see as pure a goalscorer as Mike Bossy. Sure he was as complete a player as Sakic defensively. That was a given for anyone who played for Al Arbour, but ANYONE can be a complete player. That does not make them great. What makes them great are their historic talents that define the best in the game. That's why Mario Lemieux and Wayne Gretzky called him the greatest pure goal scorer they have ever seen.

So if you are asking me as to whether I would choose a mortal (Sakic) over one hockey's gods and miss out an opportunity to watch him win 4 straight Stanley Cups and 19 consecutive playoff victories along with his other legendary teammates- a feat still a record amongst ALL professional sports teams in North America. Ha, I don't think so. You can keep Sakic. I'd choose Mike Bossy as would any other sane general manager at the 15th pick and run away with a legend.

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06-30-2013, 01:57 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by isles31 View Post
Bossy has the highest goals per game average in NHL history, so youre mistaken.
Gretzky had 637 goals in his first 744 NHL games compared to Bossy's 573g in 752 games.

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06-30-2013, 04:55 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Rehabguy View Post
I find it quite humorous how anyone can place Sakic at level close to Bossy or any of the other legends of hockey such as Gretzky, Mario, Potvin, Orr et...

Each one of these guys had unique skill sets that were so far above anything we have seen in hockey TO THIS DAY that it appears unlikely or very rare that we see such unique talents in the game again. It is possible, but improbable. That's what makes these guys the immortals of hockey today. It had nothing to do with how many points they garnered, or how many years they played in the league, or even how the pundits ranked them by the end of their careers. It's the uncanny unique skill that each one of these guys possessed that made the greatest ever.
A unique skill like being arguably the biggest game-breaker in playoff overtime? That sort of immortalizing trait?

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06-30-2013, 05:24 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
A unique skill like being arguably the biggest game-breaker in playoff overtime? That sort of immortalizing trait?
Playoff overtime performer places a player amongst the all-time greats? Nah I'll pass on that. The immortals rarely allowed it to come to that point, they devastate their opponents the first 3 periods. There was only 1 overtime game that I remember the Islanders were in that had any meaning. That was the Easter Epic, but that was when they were already past their prime.

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06-30-2013, 05:35 PM
  #111
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From Wikipedia the obvious source for all information infallible:

Accomplishments

As of 2011, Bossy holds or shares the following NHL records:
Most consecutive 50+ goal seasons: 9
Most 50+ goal seasons (not necessarily consecutive): 9 (tied with Wayne Gretzky)
Most 60+ goal seasons (not necessarily consecutive): 5 (tied with Wayne Gretzky)
Highest goals-per-game average, career (modern era): .762 goals per game
Most power-play goals, one playoff season: 9 (tied with Cam Neely)
Most consecutive hat tricks: 3 (tied with Joe Malone, who accomplished this twice)
Bossy has won the following major NHL awards:
Calder Trophy (rookie of the year), 1978
Conn Smythe Trophy (playoff MVP), 1982
Lady Byng Trophy (player best combining a high skill level with gentlemanly play), three times (1983, 1984, 1986)
First Team All-Star, five times
He also led the league in goals twice, in 1978-79 and 1980-81 (both predate the Rocket Richard Trophy). And of course, he was a part of all four Stanley Cup-winning New York Islanders teams.
Here is a selected list of other official NHL record categories where Bossy was once the record-holder and/or is ranked very highly:
Goals, career: 20th all-time with 573; only Mario Lemieux and Wayne Gretzky reached 500 in fewer games
Goals, regular season and playoffs combined, one season: seventh all-time with 85 (was a record at the time it was achieved)
Assists by a right wing, one season: second all-time with 83 (was a record at the time it was achieved)
Points by a right wing, one season: second all time with 147 (was a record at the time it was achieved)
Goals by a rookie, one season: second all-time with 53 (was a record at the time it was achieved)
100+ point seasons, career: fourth all-time with 7
Goals per game, playoffs, career: second all-time with .659
Goals per game, regular season and playoffs combined, career: second all-time with .747
Points per game, career: third all-time
Assists per game, career: seventeenth all-time

Shooting percentage, career: fourth all-time with 21.18%

Hat tricks, one season: tied for third all-time with 9 (was a record at the time it was achieved)

Hat tricks, career: third all-time with 39

Bossy has several significant career achievements that are not official NHL records. He reached 100 career goals faster (in terms of career games played) than any other player in modern NHL history, requiring just 129 games to accomplish this. (Joe Malone-61, Newsy Lalonde-69, Cy Denneny-86, Babe Dye-86, Reg Noble-109 & Frank Nighbor-125 had previously scored 100 goals in fewer games.) He was also the fastest to various other milestones such as 200 (255 GP), 300 (381 GP), 400 (506 GP) and 500 (647 GP) goals at the time he achieved them, but currently ranks behind Wayne Gretzky and Mario Lemieux in most of these categories. In the 198081 NHL season, he scored 50 goals in the first 50 games of the season - only the second player, and the first in almost 40 years, to achieve this. He remains one of only five players who can claim to have accomplished this. He is the only player to score 17 goals in three consecutive playoff years.

Bossy was inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame in 1991. His #22 jersey was retired by the Islanders on March 3, 1992. In 1998, he was ranked number 20 on The Hockey News' list of the 100 Greatest Hockey Players.

And all this in just 9 seasons. You going to pass on this guy at 15th? He's one of the all time greats and the purest goal scorer in the history of the game. I watched him play- he was pretty good

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06-30-2013, 05:36 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Rehabguy View Post
Playoff overtime performer places a player amongst the all-time greats? Nah I'll pass on that. The immortals rarely allowed it to come to that point, they devastate their opponents the first 3 periods. There was only 1 overtime game that I remember the Islanders were in that had any meaning. That was the Easter Epic, but that was when they were already past their prime.
Because winning that first Stanley Cup against the Flyers meant nothing.

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06-30-2013, 06:23 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Because winning that first Stanley Cup against the Flyers meant nothing.
Point taken . I think Kenny Morrow also scored against the Rags in overtime. Cannot remember though.

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