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Habs' Plus/Minus After 6 Games...

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Old
10-20-2006, 01:13 PM
  #1
Ghost of Saku
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Habs' Plus/Minus After 6 Games...

Habs in the Plus Range

Chris Higgins (+3)
Saku Koivu (+2)
Michael Ryder (+2)
Mike Johnson (+2)
Alexander Perezhogin (+2)
Radek Bonk (+2)
Janne Niinimaa (+1)

Habs in the Minus Range

Alex Kovalev (-4)
Sergei Samsonov (-2)
Tomas Plekanec (-3)
Steve Begin (-4)
Guillaume Latendresse (-2)
*Garth Murray (-2)
*Aaron Downey (-1)
Sheldon Souray (-3)
Craig Rivet (-1)
Andrei Markov (-1)

Habs with an even (0) rating

*Mark Streit
Mike Komisarek
*Mathieu Dandenault

*denotes player who hasn't played all 6 games this season

Conclusions

- Our first and third lines are defensively solid.
- Our second line isn't defensive by any extent of the imagination
- Our "checking" line doesn't seem to doing their job
- ONE defenseman is a plus rating (newly acquired Niniimaa)
- Our "supposed" top 3 d-men are in the minus
- Three of our "lower-rung" d-men break even and have been solid

Salary Considerations - Estimated in Millions

First Line = Roughly $7.6 combined
Second Line = Roughly $8.5 combined
Third Line = Roughly $4.9 combined

Top 3 D-Men (Souray, Rivet, Markov) = Roughly $6.9 combined
Lower D-Men (Niniimaa, Dandenault, Streit, Komisarek) = Roughly $5.75 combined

Anyone else see a problem here?
Discuss.


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Old
10-20-2006, 01:16 PM
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Tuggy
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Conclusion...Plus/Minus is the most useless stat.

Your goalie tries to pass the puck up the boards...it's intercepted and put into the empty net. -1 for you...man you suck. And so on...plus/minus doesn't even tell half the story of what's going on the ice.

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Old
10-20-2006, 01:19 PM
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Shabutie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuggy View Post
Conclusion...Plus/Minus is the most useless stat.

Your goalie tries to pass the puck up the boards...it's intercepted and put into the empty net. -1 for you...man you suck. And so on...plus/minus doesn't even tell half the story of what's going on the ice.
Wrong...It's clear as the light of day that the 2nd line hasn't been a threat offensively and has been a liability defensively...Anyone who's seen the game knows this. It also tells that the 1st/3rd lines are the best and that Rivet, Souray and Markov are playing sub-par to what they should be.

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Old
10-20-2006, 01:20 PM
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Ghost of Saku
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuggy View Post
Conclusion...Plus/Minus is the most useless stat.

Your goalie tries to pass the puck up the boards...it's intercepted and put into the empty net. -1 for you...man you suck. And so on...plus/minus doesn't even tell half the story of what's going on the ice.
doesn't it?
look at that minus list and tell me those aren't the players we've all been saying haven't been playing well this season. look at the plus players and tell me those aren't the ones who have been getting praise.

I agree that plus/minus isn't always relevant, but in the Habs' case it has been so far.

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Old
10-20-2006, 01:21 PM
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How did you get the 8.5m figure for our second line?

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Old
10-20-2006, 01:22 PM
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Tuggy
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Kinda like when Dagenais was a plus player...what a dynamo.

Perhaps it has some relevance but overall I don't put much stock into it. Especially in this "new" NHL where powerplays happen so often.

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Old
10-20-2006, 01:23 PM
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Ghost of Saku
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P1x44r View Post
How did you get the 8.5m figure for our second line?
Kovy is 4.5
Sammy is 3.5 ish
Pleks is like 600,00 ish

tsn.ca

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Old
10-20-2006, 01:24 PM
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I've said this before, and I will say it again...the plus/minus is more of a 'line' stat than an 'individual' stat. You could be the best player in the game, and still finish with a minus if your line is not clicking. If my line mate turns the puck over 3 times, and the other team scores, than I am -3. I'm not saying that it never reflects individual performance, but it is a very deceiving stat.

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Old
10-20-2006, 01:26 PM
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GoodKiwi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_sanch View Post
Kovy is 4.5
Sammy is 3.5 ish
Pleks is like 600,00 ish

tsn.ca
Oh, I see, thanks.

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Old
10-20-2006, 01:29 PM
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[QUOTE=Tuggy;6824468]Kinda like when Dagenais was a plus player...what a dynamo.

Perhaps it has some relevance but overall I don't put much stock into it. Especially in this "new" NHL where powerplays happen so often.[/QUOTE]

Maybe I am misunderstading you, but the plus/minus stat is only calculated for even strength and short handed goals.

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Old
10-20-2006, 01:31 PM
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pavlako11
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+/- on its own is a useless stat

+/- coupled together with watching how the player/team plays can be a benefit.

That's the way you have to look at things, you can't just say he's -4 he sucks, but -4 and saying he really doesn't do much on the ice, he's been lazy etc well then it says something.

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Old
10-20-2006, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Closet Habs Fan View Post
I've said this before, and I will say it again...the plus/minus is more of a 'line' stat than an 'individual' stat. You could be the best player in the game, and still finish with a minus if your line is not clicking. If my line mate turns the puck over 3 times, and the other team scores, than I am -3. I'm not saying that it never reflects individual performance, but it is a very deceiving stat.
It is a line stat of course. It has very little to do with individual performance; however, if you look at the 2nd and the 3rd line's stats it pretty much tells the story.

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Old
10-20-2006, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_sanch View Post
Kovy is 4.5
Sammy is 3.5 ish
Pleks is like 600,00 ish

tsn.ca
Pleks is at 450K the lowest paid player on the team.

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10-20-2006, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Closet Habs Fan View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuggy View Post
Kinda like when Dagenais was a plus player...what a dynamo.

Perhaps it has some relevance but overall I don't put much stock into it. Especially in this "new" NHL where powerplays happen so often.
Maybe I am misunderstading you, but the plus/minus stat is only calculated for even strength and short handed goals.
By that I mean...a player could score 40 PP goals and win the rocket richard but finish -5. Does the -5 tell the whole story?

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Old
10-20-2006, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Shabutie View Post
It is a line stat of course. It has very little to do with individual performance; however, if you look at the 2nd and the 3rd line's stats it pretty much tells the story.
I agree, but how many times do you hear someone say that such and such a player sucks because he has a bad plus/minus. That was the point I was trying to make.

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Old
10-20-2006, 01:33 PM
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Ghost of Saku
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Quote:
Originally Posted by montreal View Post
Pleks is at 450K the lowest paid player on the team.
Hey, I wasn't THAT far off

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10-20-2006, 01:34 PM
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Forget the +/- stat.

The 2nd line is not effective at scoring and is playing poor defensively. You can see that if you watch the game.

This is not a question of the individual +/- stats for each player on the line, but a question of a sum of the parts not clicking. Those players are not doing the job as a unit.

Reframing those players in a new context should completely relaunch each of their seasons.

This is why the 2nd line experiment of Sammy-Plek-Kovy is over and Carbo is going to reshuffle that line for next game.

Then we'll see. Eventually, the proper combination will be found.

I for one like the fact that Carbo allows time for a line to click before dismantling it, as opposed to the constant line juggling days of Therrien & Julien.

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Old
10-20-2006, 01:37 PM
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Shabutie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Closet Habs Fan View Post
I agree, but how many times do you hear someone say that such and such a player sucks because he has a bad plus/minus. That was the point I was trying to make.
Lol...there wasn't a day that went by that people didn't say that about Ribeiro.

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Old
10-20-2006, 01:38 PM
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Tuggy
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Lol...there wasn't a day that went by that people didn't say that about Ribeiro.
Yup. I just don't like when people try and use +/- to prove a point. I understand what the point of this thread is and to me what it shows the most is that our 2nd line needs to start scoring more.

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Old
10-20-2006, 01:41 PM
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Shabutie
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Originally Posted by Tuggy View Post
Yup. I just don't like when people try and use +/- to prove a point. I understand what the point of this thread is and to me what it shows the most is that our 2nd line needs to start scoring more.
And Kovalev has to start backchecking or I hope to god he gets traded.

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10-20-2006, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Shabutie View Post
And Kovalev has to start backchecking or I hope to god he gets traded.
That's definitely the thing that bugs me the most about him. Fine, you can stickhandle around but if you lose the puck, then make an effort to get back.

I still remember a play last year on the PP when he lost the puck at the blueline (causing a SH 2 on 1 the other way) and he basically waved his hand like "Meh"...that pissed me off.

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Old
10-20-2006, 01:50 PM
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Shabutie
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Originally Posted by Tuggy View Post
That's definitely the thing that bugs me the most about him. Fine, you can stickhandle around but if you lose the puck, then make an effort to get back.

I still remember a play last year on the PP when he lost the puck at the blueline (causing a SH 2 on 1 the other way) and he basically waved his hand like "Meh"...that pissed me off.
The reason I hate him is cuz he's not willing to do things that all players should do...Maybe it's cuz he things he's "The Greatest" and shouldn't have to or maybe it's just cuz he's lazy. So far he's caused more goals than he's scored...and that's a problem.

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Old
10-20-2006, 03:36 PM
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I think there's a great misunderstanding here. Kovalev has the best shot on the team. It's the responsibility of his teammates to get the puck to him when he's in a good SHOOTING position. He shouldn't have to get into that position all by himself. Ribeiro was unable to do that both in the regular season and in the playoffs. If he had been, it would have been reflected in the number of assists he recorded on Kovalev's goals. Since there was a great discrepancy between Kovalev's playoff goals and Ribeiro's playoff assists, Ribeiro wasn't getting the job done. When this pattern carried over into the preseason, Ribeiro was a goner.

Unfortunately, the problem still hasn't been solved. In my eyes the failure may be blamed for the most part on Samsonov, although Plekanec is not entirely blameless. If Carbonneau cannot find a suitable center and/or left wing on the roster, and the only two remaining candidates are Bonk and Johnson, Gainey should trade for one. I leave out Higgins because I wouldn't disturb the first line for love or money.

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Old
10-20-2006, 04:34 PM
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I get the feeling that if you took Kovalev off the team, the team would go downhill quickly. As a player, it's comforting knowing you have someone of his ability on the team, that one man can single-handedly turn the tide. I think, in an odd way, he inspires and instills confidence in those around him.

Like Begin that you know is not a game-breaker, you know Kovy is not a defensive specialist. Does that mean we should all hate Begin because he can't setup beautiful plays and pot timely goals? Of course not. Would I want a team of Begin's? Of course not. He does, however, fill a very important role. And so does Kovalev. Again, not that I would want a team of Kovalev's, but who wouldn't want just one? (alright alright, a couple of people here, but I suspect this opinion to be rare indeed).

The trick is to surround these guys with the right players that will maximize their strengths and minimize their weaknesses. I think it's called "trying to find chemistry". And Carbo and company, slowly but surely, are in the process of doing just that.

Have faith, don't hate--peace and love my friends...peace and love!

Go Freakin Habs Go!

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Old
10-20-2006, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuggy View Post
I still remember a play last year on the PP when he lost the puck at the blueline (causing a SH 2 on 1 the other way) and he basically waved his hand like "Meh"...that pissed me off.
I remember that, and I remember Pierre McGuire tearing him apart for it. I think he sorta half-motioned to Markov to basically pick up after him and lingered around at the blueline. Pretty sure the other team scored on that 2-on-1 too.

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