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Have the Flyers Turned the Page on Drafting and Developing Homegrown Defensemen?

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Old
07-01-2013, 12:46 AM
  #1
FreshPerspective
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Have the Flyers Turned the Page on Drafting and Developing Homegrown Defensemen?

Found below quote interesting....and the salary cap has been around how long Paul? Haven't many of us been making this same point???

Anyway, with 4 Dmen chosen out of 6 draft picks this year and 4 Dmen out of 7 draft picks last year it looks as though Holmgren and the organization have FINALLY seen the light.

Hopefully, it results in less goal lights in the future....

Discuss...


Quote:
Q: On the importance of home-grown defensemen in the salary cap environment

Holmgren: "Obviously you have young players that you develop and come in, they're ready to play - they're cheaper, for lack of a better word. The more you have, the better off you're going to be. In the salary cap world, it's nice to be able to add a couple young players to your lineup every year so you just keep turning over. I think two years ago we added a few, last year we didn't really add anybody full time, but we did get long looks at a number of younger players. This year, I wouldn't be surprised if we were able to add a couple young players to our team and just run with them."

http://www.broadstreethockey.com/201...gren-interview

2013

1st Round 11th Overall
MORIN, SAMUEL (D) RIMOUSKI, QMJHL

2nd Round 41st Overall
HAGG, ROBERT (D) MODO, SWE

5th Round 132 Overall
AMOROSA, TERRANCE (D) HOLDERNES, HS - N.H.

7th Round 192 Overall
DRAKE, DAVID (D) DES MOINES, USHL


2012

3rd Round - 78th Overall
SHAYNE GOSTISBEHERE (D-Union College, ECAC)

4th Round - 111th Overall
FREDRIC LARSSON (D-Brynas Jr., Sweden)

5th Round - 141st Overall
REECE WILLCOX (D-Merritt, BCHL)

7th Round - 201st Overall
VALERI VASILIEV (D-Spartak, Russian Jr.)


Last edited by FreshPerspective: 07-01-2013 at 12:50 PM. Reason: Source cited
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Old
07-01-2013, 01:00 AM
  #2
Pantokrator
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I think they realize they need to be concerned about drafting defense, which is nice to see, but they haven't developed any of these guys into NHLers yet, so I'm waiting to see about that aspect. I was pleased to see players like Lauridsen, Gustafsson, Manning and Bourdon get playing time the past couple of years, but the Flyers are going to have to give players legitimate chances to play in all situations if they want to see development. I would rather they go with these young guys rather than sign the likes of Gervais, Huskins, and Walker.

I also hope they don't rush any of these guys. I would rather err on the side of caution when it comes to their development. Many players have been hurt by being rushed into the big leagues. How many have been hurt by being kept in Junior or the AHL too long? Heck, Brendan Smith just because a regular for Detroit this year and he was drafted in 2007.

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07-01-2013, 01:03 AM
  #3
achdumeingute
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I don't think they ever closed the book.

i think they thought they were close in 2009, so they threw caution to the wind to push for 2010, and 2011.

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07-01-2013, 01:18 AM
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phlocky
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Until they actually DEVELOP into top dmen, I'll reserve changing my opinion here. We have drafted dmen early in the 1st rnd before but none of them have EVER reached a hint of their projected potential (Woywitka, Pitkanen, Sbissa just to name a few). The fact is that this organization has historically failed at evaluating and developing drafted dmen. They are absolutely great when it comes to forwards but abysmal when it comes to goalies and dmen.

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07-01-2013, 01:37 AM
  #5
phlocky
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Our draft picks for the past 13 years:

2001
1 27 Jeff Woywitka D
3 95 Patrick Sharp C
5 146 Jussi Timonen D
5 150 Bernd Bruckler G
5 158 Roman Malek G
6 172 Dennis Seidenberg D
6 177 Andrei Razin C
7 208 Thierry Douville D
7 225 David Printz D
2002
1 4 Joni Pitkanen D
4 105 Rosario Ruggeri D
4 126 Konstantin Baranov RW
5 161 Dov Grumet-Morris G
6 192 Nikita Korovkin D
6 193 Joey Mormina D
7 201 Mathieu Brunelle LW
2003
1 11 Jeff Carter C
1 24 Mike Richards C/LW
3 69 Colin Fraser C
3 81 Stefan Ruzicka RW
3 85 Alexandre Picard D
3 87 Ryan Potulny C
3 95 Rick Kozak RW
4 108 Kevin Romy C/LW
5 140 David Tremblay G
6 191 Rejean Beauchemin G
6 193 Ville Hostikka G
2004
3 92 Rob Bellamy RW
4 101 Micheal R.J. Anderson D
4 124 David Laliberte RW
5 144 Chris Zarb D
5 149 Gino Pisellini RW
6 170 Ladisalv Scurko C
6 171 Fredreik Cabana C/LW
8 232 Martin Houle G
8 253 Travis Gawryletz D
9 286 Triston Grant LW
9 291 John Carter C
2005
1 29 Steve Downie RW
3 91 Oskars Bartulis D
4 119 Jeremy Duchesne G
5 152 Josh Beaulieu C
6 174 John Flatters D
7 215 Matthew Clackson LW
2006
1 22 Claude Giroux RW
2 39 Andreas Nodl RW
2 42 Michael Ratchuk D
2 55 Denis Bodrov D
3 79 Jonathan Matsumoto C
4 101 Joonas Lehtivuori D
4 109 Jakub Kovar G
5 145 Jonathan Rheault RW
6 175 Michael Dupont G
7 205 Andrei Popov RW
2007
1 2 James van Riemsdyk LW
2 41 Kevin Marshall D
3 66 Garrett Klotz LW
5 122 Mario Kempe RW
6 152 Jonathon Kalinski LW
6 161 Patrick Maroon LW
7 182 Brad Phillips G
2008
1 19 Luca Sbisa D
3 67 Marc-Andre Bourdon D
3 84 Jacob Deserres G
6 178 Zac Rinaldo C
7 196 Joacim Eriksson G
2009
3 81 Adam Morrison G
3 87 Simon Bertilsson D
5 142 Nicola Riopel G
6 153 Dave Labrecque C
6 172 Eric Wellwood LW
7 196 Oliver Lauridsen D
2010
3 89 Micheal Chaput C
4 119 Tye McGinn LW
5 149 Michael Parks RW
6 179 Nicholas Luukko D
7 206 Ricard Blidstrand D
7 209 Brendan Ranford LW
2011
1 8 Sean Couturier C
3 68 Nick Cousins C
4 116 Colin Sullentrop D
4 118 Marcel Noebels LW
6 176 Petr Placek RW
7 206 Derek Mathers RW
2012
1 20 Scott Laughton C
2 45 Anthony Stolarz G
3 78 Shayne Gostibehere D
4 111 Fredric Larsson D
4 117 Taylor Leier LW
5 141 Reece Willcox D
7 201 Valeri Vasiliev D


That's 30 dmen drafted in 13 years with only 3 of them as actual NHL dmen and NONE of them playing for us. That's also 16 goalies drafted and none of them in the NHL. Throwing **** at the wall and seeing what sticks hasn't worked very well for us and until they actually get some scouts who can accurately evaluate dmen and goalies we will continue to flounder at developing them. It's not like we haven't tried to draft and develop these 2 areas, we just continue to fail at it.

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07-01-2013, 07:44 AM
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GKJ
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It's not even about drafting them as it is getting them here. They let Sullentrop and Bertilsson rights expire. It's not even like we're being asked about them in trades for replacement-level players.

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07-01-2013, 08:51 AM
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sa cyred
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Overall i do like last season crop that we picked up over this seasons. Ghost has looked great and that pmd we have been searching for years. Just hoping hes more of an overall puckmover and defender than a michael ratchuk kind.

Larrson looked good from what i can tell by people who saw him here (during the camps) and over in sweden. Wilcox played every game as a true freshman and looked great. Skates extremely well and reminded abit like coburn in his play. Vasiliev looks like he wants to come over to NA which is good. Got to play some big minutes in the KHL the end of last season.

Overall this draft we got two "better" defenders but last seasons haul was pretty good

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07-01-2013, 08:58 AM
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Ask me in a couple years. We draft defensmen we rarely let them stay long enough to develop here. Especially the higher picked ones. If in 2-3 years we have 2-3 draft classes still in the system or on the team then yes. If Morin and Hägg are moved for Sergei Gonchar and Daniel Alfredsson then no. Time will tell. However I am encouraged with what I saw yesterday. I cleaned my mind and am giving this front office a new chance, and so far from the deadline on I've been very impressed with what I've seen.

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07-01-2013, 09:00 AM
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DrHamburg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
It's not even about drafting them as it is getting them here. They let Sullentrop and Bertilsson rights expire. It's not even like we're being asked about them in trades for replacement-level players.
It is pretty much this. I think this particular season is this draft they knew they could get a solid player on the blue line. I think Hagg falling was just dumb luck and Homer took the best player available. Goulbourne was a Homer move, trying to get the next Rinaldo. After that who knows, maybe he didn't like what was left and took the best d-men and goalies on his list.

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07-01-2013, 09:08 AM
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TheDrizzle81
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Vasilev in all honesty is the most exciting to me. I have absolutely no idea why, I've never seen him play, read very little about him, I just have a feeling that's a name we hear soon. I have absolutely no stats or facts to back this up. It's just a feeling. Reading he is interested in North America is promising. I'd love it if we had a 7th rounder be a key member of this club.

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07-01-2013, 09:19 AM
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BringBackStevens
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I don't think the drafting has been that bad. It's more about patience and development. This team has not really developed any players (including F and G) that take longer than 2 years before turning pro. Defensemen and Goalies take a little longer to make it. With defensemen, I think they have either given up too quickly or not developed them properly.

Also turning over the roster so often has complicated everything. Things need to stabilize more than they have been

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07-01-2013, 01:02 PM
  #12
Appleyard
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I think Vasiliev or Larsson have a good chance of becoming decent players, if one makes the NHL that is fantastic.

Though tbh I have seen only one game of Vasiliev, and tbh I was not really aware he was ours at the time. (just casually watching, not focusing or thinking a Flyers 7th rounder would be playing, thought I recognised the name, so after checked and realised who he was!) But I like what I have read and what I saw in the one game where I did not know who he was!!!

The guy was ranked top 20 in europe before the draft, a lot of people thought he would go in the third round, but he fell a lot due to a bad shoulder injury.

6'2
210 pounds
Lefty

16 senior games for Spartak, 1 goal, 1 assist, apparently did not look out of place.
Played for Russia U-19, is in the running for the WJC squad apparently.

Positives: Physical, Mobile, Defensively sound.

Pretty much as much as you can hope for with a 7th!

Larsson:

6'3
178 pounds
Lefty

Seen more of him than Vasiliev... but just a few highlight videos from Brynas J20 games on youtube, and they mainly ignored him and focused on looking at Mathias Göransson! when they were on D together! (I swear his Dad is the cameraman at Brynas, and who I am kind of surprised no one took a flyer on late on, guy gets points, is big, Sweden international junior player.)

But what I noticed from the blurry highlights is that the guy is a Flyer! Gets involved in everything, doesn't take any **** from anyone and led the whole league in penalties on a pretty nasty Brynas J20 team, those Gavle boys don't mess around from the highlights! (incidentally Lauridsen did a few years back as well!)

He hits like an absolute freight train as well, considering he has not filled out he is a scary SOB. Good skater as well, and can actually pass and play D, also has a sick tache.

IF he fills out he could get time on full Brynas team next year, I think the coming year is most important for him, make or break as NHLer, he hasn't played against men so who knows how he will fair... but he has the physical side down!

He has similar figures in his career to Lauridsen, is a similar player, but a better skater and smaller.

The great thing about both is that they skate well, as everyone knows, to make the NHL skating is damn important, Flyers seem to be prioritising that in recently drafted D men.

Best case scenarios IMO:

Vasiliev, No.4 D man, shut down. (Grossmann)

Larsson, No. 5-6 D man, shut down.


Last edited by Appleyard: 07-01-2013 at 01:09 PM.
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07-01-2013, 01:05 PM
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GingerFetish
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Hows MAB doing injury wise?

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07-01-2013, 01:11 PM
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With their imaptience, drafting a bunch of high schoolers doesn't seem to prudent.

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07-01-2013, 01:52 PM
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TheDrizzle81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Appleyard View Post
I think Vasiliev or Larsson have a good chance of becoming decent players, if one makes the NHL that is fantastic.

Though tbh I have seen only one game of Vasiliev, and tbh I was not really aware he was ours at the time. (just casually watching, not focusing or thinking a Flyers 7th rounder would be playing, thought I recognised the name, so after checked and realised who he was!) But I like what I have read and what I saw in the one game where I did not know who he was!!!

The guy was ranked top 20 in europe before the draft, a lot of people thought he would go in the third round, but he fell a lot due to a bad shoulder injury.

6'2
210 pounds
Lefty

16 senior games for Spartak, 1 goal, 1 assist, apparently did not look out of place.
Played for Russia U-19, is in the running for the WJC squad apparently.

Positives: Physical, Mobile, Defensively sound.

Pretty much as much as you can hope for with a 7th!

Larsson:

6'3
178 pounds
Lefty

Seen more of him than Vasiliev... but just a few highlight videos from Brynas J20 games on youtube, and they mainly ignored him and focused on looking at Mathias Göransson! when they were on D together! (I swear his Dad is the cameraman at Brynas, and who I am kind of surprised no one took a flyer on late on, guy gets points, is big, Sweden international junior player.)

But what I noticed from the blurry highlights is that the guy is a Flyer! Gets involved in everything, doesn't take any **** from anyone and led the whole league in penalties on a pretty nasty Brynas J20 team, those Gavle boys don't mess around from the highlights! (incidentally Lauridsen did a few years back as well!)

He hits like an absolute freight train as well, considering he has not filled out he is a scary SOB. Good skater as well, and can actually pass and play D, also has a sick tache.

IF he fills out he could get time on full Brynas team next year, I think the coming year is most important for him, make or break as NHLer, he hasn't played against men so who knows how he will fair... but he has the physical side down!

He has similar figures in his career to Lauridsen, is a similar player, but a better skater and smaller.

The great thing about both is that they skate well, as everyone knows, to make the NHL skating is damn important, Flyers seem to be prioritising that in recently drafted D men.

Best case scenarios IMO:

Vasiliev, No.4 D man, shut down. (Grossmann)

Larsson, No. 5-6 D man, shut down.
This excites me.

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07-01-2013, 02:40 PM
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McNasty
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They'll turn the corner when they show patience with their prospects. It was somewhat nice to see them draft somebody who they know is a raw talent with a high ceiling. In previous drafts they had a tendency with their first round pick to select players who might not have the highest ceiling, but are generally regarded as safer picks who are capable of contributing earlier.

The selections of Haag and Morin hopefully illustrate the organizations willingness to be more patient with prospects and let them develop and mature rather than force them to the NHL level as soon as a roster spot is available or there is little to gain from remaining where they are.

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07-01-2013, 02:41 PM
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its pretty easy to see why we rush them and the first clue to me will be this season. if Bearclaw is playing top minutes for the phantoms with the occasional cup of coffee then fine. otherwise its back to the status quo. pretty much all of these kids are going to need playing time so while it may not be the best thing to leave them in the level theyre at its the best overall strategy for development.

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07-01-2013, 04:48 PM
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Brayden Pattison
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GingerFetish View Post
Hows MAB doing injury wise?
http://flyers.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=670514
^ Article from May. Kind of disturbing that doctors sound almost ready to clear him when he still can't focus his eyes, IMO.

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07-01-2013, 05:48 PM
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It looks like they're taking it seriously at least. You never know how someone will turn out but at least they're trying.

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07-01-2013, 06:13 PM
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It's nice to see that they took the 2 D they did. But they 100% blew the 3rd round pick on Goul. There were players there that have 2nd line upside. Not sure what they were thinking.

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07-01-2013, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McNasty View Post
They'll turn the corner when they show patience with their prospects. It was somewhat nice to see them draft somebody who they know is a raw talent with a high ceiling. In previous drafts they had a tendency with their first round pick to select players who might not have the highest ceiling, but are generally regarded as safer picks who are capable of contributing earlier.

The selections of Haag and Morin hopefully illustrate the organizations willingness to be more patient with prospects and let them develop and mature rather than force them to the NHL level as soon as a roster spot is available or there is little to gain from remaining where they are.
Such as?

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07-02-2013, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Our draft picks for the past 13 years:

2001
1 27 Jeff Woywitka D
3 95 Patrick Sharp C
5 146 Jussi Timonen D
5 150 Bernd Bruckler G
5 158 Roman Malek G
6 172 Dennis Seidenberg D
6 177 Andrei Razin C
7 208 Thierry Douville D
7 225 David Printz D
2002
1 4 Joni Pitkanen D
4 105 Rosario Ruggeri D
4 126 Konstantin Baranov RW
5 161 Dov Grumet-Morris G
6 192 Nikita Korovkin D
6 193 Joey Mormina D
7 201 Mathieu Brunelle LW
2003
1 11 Jeff Carter C
1 24 Mike Richards C/LW
3 69 Colin Fraser C
3 81 Stefan Ruzicka RW
3 85 Alexandre Picard D
3 87 Ryan Potulny C
3 95 Rick Kozak RW
4 108 Kevin Romy C/LW
5 140 David Tremblay G
6 191 Rejean Beauchemin G
6 193 Ville Hostikka G
2004
3 92 Rob Bellamy RW
4 101 Micheal R.J. Anderson D
4 124 David Laliberte RW
5 144 Chris Zarb D
5 149 Gino Pisellini RW
6 170 Ladisalv Scurko C
6 171 Fredreik Cabana C/LW
8 232 Martin Houle G
8 253 Travis Gawryletz D
9 286 Triston Grant LW
9 291 John Carter C
2005
1 29 Steve Downie RW
3 91 Oskars Bartulis D
4 119 Jeremy Duchesne G
5 152 Josh Beaulieu C
6 174 John Flatters D
7 215 Matthew Clackson LW
2006
1 22 Claude Giroux RW
2 39 Andreas Nodl RW
2 42 Michael Ratchuk D
2 55 Denis Bodrov D
3 79 Jonathan Matsumoto C
4 101 Joonas Lehtivuori D
4 109 Jakub Kovar G
5 145 Jonathan Rheault RW
6 175 Michael Dupont G
7 205 Andrei Popov RW
2007
1 2 James van Riemsdyk LW
2 41 Kevin Marshall D
3 66 Garrett Klotz LW
5 122 Mario Kempe RW
6 152 Jonathon Kalinski LW
6 161 Patrick Maroon LW
7 182 Brad Phillips G
2008
1 19 Luca Sbisa D
3 67 Marc-Andre Bourdon D
3 84 Jacob Deserres G
6 178 Zac Rinaldo C
7 196 Joacim Eriksson G
2009
3 81 Adam Morrison G
3 87 Simon Bertilsson D
5 142 Nicola Riopel G
6 153 Dave Labrecque C
6 172 Eric Wellwood LW
7 196 Oliver Lauridsen D
2010
3 89 Micheal Chaput C
4 119 Tye McGinn LW
5 149 Michael Parks RW
6 179 Nicholas Luukko D
7 206 Ricard Blidstrand D
7 209 Brendan Ranford LW
2011
1 8 Sean Couturier C
3 68 Nick Cousins C
4 116 Colin Sullentrop D
4 118 Marcel Noebels LW
6 176 Petr Placek RW
7 206 Derek Mathers RW
2012
1 20 Scott Laughton C
2 45 Anthony Stolarz G
3 78 Shayne Gostibehere D
4 111 Fredric Larsson D
4 117 Taylor Leier LW
5 141 Reece Willcox D
7 201 Valeri Vasiliev D


That's 30 dmen drafted in 13 years with only 3 of them as actual NHL dmen and NONE of them playing for us. That's also 16 goalies drafted and none of them in the NHL. Throwing **** at the wall and seeing what sticks hasn't worked very well for us and until they actually get some scouts who can accurately evaluate dmen and goalies we will continue to flounder at developing them. It's not like we haven't tried to draft and develop these 2 areas, we just continue to fail at it.
The Flyers just suck at drafting and developing defensemen.
Until that changes I do not see any improvement in our homegrown defense corp.
We are so poor Holmgren rarely will draft a defenseman in the first round, limiting our
ability to draft our own #1 defenseman.
Our defense will be mediocre until we can develop our own top defensemen.

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07-02-2013, 03:08 PM
  #23
phlocky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Overall i do like last season crop that we picked up over this seasons. Ghost has looked great and that pmd we have been searching for years. Just hoping hes more of an overall puckmover and defender than a michael ratchuk kind.

Larrson looked good from what i can tell by people who saw him here (during the camps) and over in sweden. Wilcox played every game as a true freshman and looked great. Skates extremely well and reminded abit like coburn in his play. Vasiliev looks like he wants to come over to NA which is good. Got to play some big minutes in the KHL the end of last season.

Overall this draft we got two "better" defenders but last seasons haul was pretty good
Before Ghost it was Gustafsson who was supposed to be that PMD we have been looking for and look what's happened there. He's developed pretty much as expected (as opposed to failing like most of our dmen prospects) and we are STILL looking for that PMD guy.

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07-02-2013, 03:45 PM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GingerFetish View Post
Hows MAB doing injury wise?
Meltzer made quick mention of him in today's article saying he's healthy again however that is the only place I've heard it.

Quote:
Right now, however, there is a logjam on the Flyers defense roster. Apart from Gustafsson, there are seven other defensemen -- Kimmo Timonen, Luke Schenn, Braydon Coburn, Nicklas Grossmann, Bruno Gervais and new acquisition Mark Streit -- plus Marc-Andre Bourdon (finally healthy after a long struggle with post-concussion syndrome). Lauridsen, Manning and Matt Konan also finished last season with the big club after a slew of injuries ended the seasons of all of the veterans except Schenn.
http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?b...5#.UdMtuJxv7cA

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07-02-2013, 04:28 PM
  #25
phlocky
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Originally Posted by PALE PWNR View Post
Meltzer made quick mention of him in today's article saying he's healthy again however that is the only place I've heard it.



http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?b...5#.UdMtuJxv7cA
That's funny, calling Schenn "the veteran" of the defense at the end of the season.

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