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Round 1, Pick #11: Samuel Morin, Defense, Rimouski (QMJHL)

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Old
06-30-2013, 11:58 PM
  #301
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Yeah, and the Devils have 3 rings to show for it in the last 15 years, we have none. But that's fine, lets keep going status quo with our recycle bin goalies, that's fine. Looks like no more rings for another 40 years with that kind of mentality. You don't win cups in this era without goaltending and defense, two things we are severly lacking at the moment (and no Morin isn't the solution to that problem).
You can complain all you want, but that is an organizational failure and the MO to this point has been consistent. If you thought that the Flyers would trade the #11 overall plus additional assets to acquire Schneider, you were kidding yourself.

By the way, reports are that the deal between Van and NJD was agreed to yesterday morning.

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07-01-2013, 12:00 AM
  #302
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Yeah, and the Devils have 3 rings to show for it in the last 15 years, we have none. But that's fine, lets keep going status quo with our recycle bin goalies, that's fine. Looks like no more rings for another 40 years with that kind of mentality. You don't win cups in this era without goaltending and defense, two things we are severly lacking at the moment (and no Morin isn't the solution to that problem).
Yeah, because franchise defenders are just sooo easy to come by. Finding the "solution to that problem" is much easier said than done. Whine about not trading up for Jones all you want, but it's clear Nashville wasn't entertaining moving that pick. Count the number of franchise defenders around the league. It won't take you long. It's hard to get your hands on one.

And you know what? Nobody thought Karlsson would be a franchise defender. Or OEL even. Definitely not Weber. Or Keith. Or Suter or Chara. The only "predictable" franchise defenders in this league were probably Doughty and Pietrangelo.

So quit your incessant *****ing and moaning because we have a better chance of striking gold in Morin than we do of acquiring the highly coveted franchise defender that you're after. It's just not that easy, and history proves that you often don't know you have a franchise defender on the day you draft him.

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07-01-2013, 12:02 AM
  #303
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Originally Posted by captainpaxil View Post
this.

morin is a big mean defenseman who doesn't seem all that slow. big mean and fast are the 3 things you want in a defenseman. I don't give a sweaty pile of sticktape how many goals he scores. that's what you have forwards for. he was a bit of a reach but I love the snot outta this pick.
Big, fluid and mean are great traits, but organizational need right now dictates that defenders capable of moving the puck via solid outlet passing and the ability to stretch the neutral zone with their skating hold higher priority. That's the nice thing about Morin... he's still young enough to develop the offensive skills properly. Many OFD don't really come around and shine until 22+ years old unless they're elite/borderline generational guys like Prongs.

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07-01-2013, 12:02 AM
  #304
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Apparently Montreal was close to a trade with Vancouver for the #9 pick to select Morin but Horvat was still on the board and the Canucks liked him too much to trade the pick.

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07-01-2013, 12:07 AM
  #305
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
Apparently Montreal was close to a trade with Vancouver for the #9 pick to select Morin but Horvat was still on the board and the Canucks liked him too much to trade the pick.
Not that I don't believe you, but where did you read this?


Edit. Never mind.


Morin to me seemed like a bit of a reach when the Flyers called his name but Seeing the trend of d man immediately following I think they made the right choice.

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07-01-2013, 12:07 AM
  #306
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Not that I don't believe you, but where did you read this?
I read it on the Montreal board in their draft discussion.

There was no link but it came from a radio station up there.

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07-01-2013, 12:12 AM
  #307
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Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
Oh really?




Seems pretty clear what you're suggesting here. But I don't know, you seldom make much sense in your posts. You're honestly one of the hardest posters to understand. I'd recommend rereading your posts before hitting the "submit" button.
I never said that we SHOULD have moved back. If that's what you took from my post then that's on you. What I said was that there wasn't any difference between him and guys available later. that was in no way me saying we SHOULD have moved back.

We SHOULD have moved UP!!! If we couldn't move up (and no, I don't think that we couldn't and no, I don't think the price to do so would have "bankrupt" the franchise as some have suggested) then we SHOULD have done something other than draft a guy who projects to be nothing more than a 2nd pairing guy as his probable upside. whether that was moving back or trading the pick outright IDK, but drafting Morin at 11 wasn't the best move we could have made. It was very very disappointing.

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07-01-2013, 12:15 AM
  #308
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
I never said that we SHOULD have moved back. If that's what you took from my post then that's on you. What I said was that there wasn't any difference between him and guys available later. that was in no way me saying we SHOULD have moved back.
No, my friend, that's on you. If you meant something entirely different than what you posted, then you should have double checked your post before submitting your garbled nonsense that you so often submit to us.

Seriously, what else am I supposed to take from "we should not have been worried about moving back"?

Quote:
We SHOULD have moved UP!!! If we couldn't move up (and no, I don't think that we couldn't and no, I don't think the price to do so would have "bankrupt" the franchise as some have suggested) then we SHOULD have done something other than draft a guy who projects to be nothing more than a 2nd pairing guy as his probable upside. whether that was moving back or trading the pick outright IDK, but drafting Morin at 11 wasn't the best move we could have made. It was very very disappointing.
I defer to my post above. You somehow think it's easy to pick out and acquire a franchise D. But as I showed you above, most of the true franchise defenders in the league were nothing of the sort on their draft day. Sometimes you just need to let the chips fall and wait to see how they land.

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07-01-2013, 12:17 AM
  #309
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Originally Posted by FadeToBlack View Post
Big, fluid and mean are great traits, but organizational need right now dictates that defenders capable of moving the puck via solid outlet passing and the ability to stretch the neutral zone with their skating hold higher priority. That's the nice thing about Morin... he's still young enough to develop the offensive skills properly. Many OFD don't really come around and shine until 22+ years old unless they're elite/borderline generational guys like Prongs.
And even Pronger wasn't GREAT until he was older too.

Organizational need right now for a puck mover was met by signing Streit.

Morin and Hagg, along with Gostibehere are all about 3 training camps away from challenging for jobs with the Flyers. Ghost maybe only one more year at college, we'll see how fast he fills out.

We don't really know what our organizational needs are for puck movers in 3 years will be. Will Gus be an established starter by then? Will we trade for one of Nashville's surplus of Dmen?

This kid has the chance to be a dominant defender, and there is nothing wrong with that.

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07-01-2013, 12:20 AM
  #310
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And even Pronger wasn't GREAT until he was older too.

Organizational need right now for a puck mover was met by signing Streit.

Morin and Hagg, along with Gostibehere are all about 3 training camps away from challenging for jobs with the Flyers. Ghost maybe only one more year at college, we'll see how fast he fills out.

We don't really know what our organizational needs are for puck movers in 3 years will be. Will Gus be an established starter by then? Will we trade for one of Nashville's surplus of Dmen?

This kid has the chance to be a dominant defender, and there is nothing wrong with that.
Exactly. SO many things can happen. Ghost, Gust, and Hagg could all become excellent PMDs. Hell, if Gust continues trending up and Streit performs well, that may not even be a need as soon as this coming season.

Maybe we have a surplus of PMDs in the future. Maybe it turns out that we are in need of someone with Morin's skill set by that time. You just don't know. Good post.

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07-01-2013, 12:23 AM
  #311
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MORIN (#11 - 2013) : 6'6 - 203
AGE: 17 years + 11 months
16: 10 point pace
17: 26 point pace
18: N/A

19: N/A

JONES (#4 - 2013) : 6'4 - 205
AGE: 18 years + 9 months (10 months older)
16: N/A
17: N/A
18: 66 point pace
19: N/A

NURSE (#7 - 2013) : 6'4 - 185
AGE: 18 years + 5 months (6 months older)
16.5: 14 point pace
17.5: 43 point pace
18.5: N/A
19.5: N/A

ZADOROV (#16 - 2013) : 6'5 - 229
AGE: 18 years + 3 months (4 months older)
16.5: N/A
17.5: 28 point pace
18.5: N/A

19.5: N/A

REINHART (#4 - 2012) : 6'4 - 205
AGE: 18 years + 5 months (6 months older)
16.5: 40 point pace
17.5: 44 point pace
18.5: 35 point pace
19.5: N/A

KOEKKOEK (#10 - 2012) : 6'2 - 185
AGE: 18 years + 4 months (5 months older)
16.5: 25 point pace
17.5: 50 point pace
18.5: 51 point pace
19.5: N/A

HAMILTON (#9 - 2011) : 6'4 - 216
AGE: 18 years + 0 months (1 month older)
16: 18 point pace
17: 62 point pace
18: 104 point pace
19: 92 point pace

SIEMENS (#11 - 2011) : 6'2 - 194
AGE: 17 years + 9 months (2 months younger)
16: 25 point pace
17: 43 point pace
18: 35 point pace
19: 33 point pace

OLEKSIAK (#14 - 2011) : 6'7 - 254
AGE: 18 years + 6 months (7 months older)
16.5: N/A
17.5: N/A
18.5: 37 point pace
19.5: N/A

GUDBRANSON (#3 - 2010) : 6'4 - 201
AGE: 18 years + 6 months (6 months older)
16.5: 25 point pace
17.5: 40 point pace
18.5: 56 point pace
19.5: N/A

MCILRATH (#10 - 2010) : 6'5 - 216
AGE: 18 years + 2 months (3 months older)
16: 5 point pace
17: 27 point pace
18: 27 point pace

19: 32 point pace

COWEN (#9 - 2009) : 6'5 - 227
AGE: 18 years + 5 months (6 months older)
16.5: 19 point pace
17.5: 31 point pace
18.5: 37 point pace

19.5: 59 point pace

PIETRANGELO (#4 - 2008) : 6'4 - 205
AGE: 18 years + 5 months (6 months older)
16.5: 63 point pace
17.5: 64 point pace
18.5: 58 point pace
19.5: N/A

MYERS (#12 - 2008) : 6'8 - 227
AGE: 18 years + 5 months (6 months older)
16.5: 18 point pace
17.5: 21 point pace
18.5: 52 point pace

19.5: N/A

TEUBERT (#13 - 2008) : 6'3 - 194
AGE: 18 years + 4 months (5 months older)
16.5: 12 point pace
17.5: 25 point pace
18.5: 44 point pace

19.5: 48 point pace

The closest similarities to his production rate for the 1st two CHL seasons were:

*Myers, *Cowen, *Teubert, *Zadorov, McIlrath, (*Oleksiak - projected)

Similar 1st year but broke out more 2nd year:

Hamilton, *Nurse

Have been kicking his ass production-wise since day 1:

*Pietrangelo, *Gudbranson, *Reinhart, *Koekkoek, Siemens, (*Jones - projected)

* Denotes a player roughly half a year (or full year in Jones' case) over Morin's age.

The best we could realistically hope for is a Myers-esque breakout next season. Of the players pointed out as more similarly related production-wise, only Myers and Teubert really broke out significantly their 3rd year compared to their 1st two.

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07-01-2013, 12:30 AM
  #312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Yeah, and the Devils have 3 rings to show for it in the last 15 years, we have none. But that's fine, lets keep going status quo with our recycle bin goalies, that's fine. Looks like no more rings for another 40 years with that kind of mentality. You don't win cups in this era without goaltending and defense, two things we are severly lacking at the moment (and no Morin isn't the solution to that problem).
They have 2 rings in the last 15 years to show for it, and you need to chill out a little bit.

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07-01-2013, 12:30 AM
  #313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
MORIN (#11 - 2013) : 6'6 - 203
AGE: 17 years + 11 months
16: 10 point pace
17: 26 point pace
18: N/A

19: N/A

JONES (#4 - 2013) : 6'4 - 205
AGE: 18 years + 9 months (10 months older)
16: N/A
17: N/A
18: 66 point pace
19: N/A

NURSE (#7 - 2013) : 6'4 - 185
AGE: 18 years + 5 months (6 months older)
16.5: 14 point pace
17.5: 43 point pace
18.5: N/A
19.5: N/A

ZADOROV (#16 - 2013) : 6'5 - 229
AGE: 18 years + 3 months (4 months older)
16.5: N/A
17.5: 28 point pace
18.5: N/A

19.5: N/A

REINHART (#4 - 2012) : 6'4 - 205
AGE: 18 years + 5 months (6 months older)
16.5: 40 point pace
17.5: 44 point pace
18.5: 35 point pace
19.5: N/A

KOEKKOEK (#10 - 2012) : 6'2 - 185
AGE: 18 years + 4 months (5 months older)
16.5: 25 point pace
17.5: 50 point pace
18.5: 51 point pace
19.5: N/A

HAMILTON (#9 - 2011) : 6'4 - 216
AGE: 18 years + 0 months (1 month older)
16: 18 point pace
17: 62 point pace
18: 104 point pace
19: 92 point pace

SIEMENS (#11 - 2011) : 6'2 - 194
AGE: 17 years + 9 months (2 months younger)
16: 25 point pace
17: 43 point pace
18: 35 point pace
19: 33 point pace

OLEKSIAK (#14 - 2011) : 6'7 - 254
AGE: 18 years + 6 months (7 months older)
16.5: N/A
17.5: N/A
18.5: 37 point pace
19.5: N/A

GUDBRANSON (#3 - 2010) : 6'4 - 201
AGE: 18 years + 6 months (6 months older)
16.5: 25 point pace
17.5: 40 point pace
18.5: 56 point pace
19.5: N/A

MCILRATH (#10 - 2010) : 6'5 - 216
AGE: 18 years + 2 months (3 months older)
16: 5 point pace
17: 27 point pace
18: 27 point pace

19: 32 point pace

COWEN (#9 - 2009) : 6'5 - 227
AGE: 18 years + 5 months (6 months older)
16.5: 19 point pace
17.5: 31 point pace
18.5: 37 point pace

19.5: 59 point pace

PIETRANGELO (#4 - 2008) : 6'4 - 205
AGE: 18 years + 5 months (6 months older)
16.5: 63 point pace
17.5: 64 point pace
18.5: 58 point pace
19.5: N/A

MYERS (#12 - 2008) : 6'8 - 227
AGE: 18 years + 5 months (6 months older)
16.5: 18 point pace
17.5: 21 point pace
18.5: 52 point pace

19.5: N/A

TEUBERT (#13 - 2008) : 6'3 - 194
AGE: 18 years + 4 months (5 months older)
16.5: 12 point pace
17.5: 25 point pace
18.5: 44 point pace

19.5: 48 point pace

The closest similarities to his production rate for the 1st two CHL seasons were:

*Myers, *Cowen, *Teubert, *Zadorov, McIlrath, (*Oleksiak - projected)

Similar 1st year but broke out more 2nd year:

Hamilton, *Nurse

Have been kicking his ass production-wise since day 1:

*Pietrangelo, *Gudbranson, *Reinhart, *Koekkoek, Siemens, (*Jones - projected)

* Denotes a player roughly half a year (or full year in Jones' case) over Morin's age.

The best we could realistically hope for is a Myers-esque breakout next season. Of the players pointed out as more similarly related production-wise, only Myers and Teubert really broke out significantly their 3rd year compared to their 1st two.
this is good work. I really think pts for defenseman don't necessarily translate to what this teams need. Our biggest problem last year was getting pinned in our own zone. Forwards and D men were to slow to skate it out, and d men were consistently unable to make proper outlet passes to start the break. These are 2 skills that Morin possesses, and Id much rather have that in a player than a guy like pulock who can rack up pts on the pp.

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07-01-2013, 12:31 AM
  #314
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this is good work. I really think pts for defenseman don't necessarily translate to what this teams need. Our biggest problem last year was getting pinned in our own zone. Forwards and D men were to slow to skate it out, and d men were consistently unable to make proper outlet passes to start the break. These are 2 skills that Morin possesses, and Id much rather have that in a player than a guy like pulock who can rack up pts on the pp.
Well the discussion is mainly about Morin's overall potential, of which, his offensive ability is the most in doubt.

I tried to create as thorough a statistical examination as possible. Most #1 defensemen, if not all, are at least somewhat capable of providing offensive production so it is a more tangible examination category of a defenseman's true #1 potential.


By the way, Pronger's numbers:

PRONGER (#2 - 1993) : 6'6 - 214
AGE: 17 years + 9 months (2 months younger)
16: 71 point pace
17: 91 point pace
18: N/A
19: N/A

He basically blows everyone out of the water, including the defensemen that blue Morin out of the water.


Last edited by CS: 07-01-2013 at 12:39 AM.
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07-01-2013, 12:42 AM
  #315
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ISS compared Morin to Tyler Myers fwiw.

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07-01-2013, 12:46 AM
  #316
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
ISS compared Morin to Tyler Myers fwiw.
That's the closest possible comparison based on everything at our disposal.

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07-01-2013, 12:52 AM
  #317
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That's the closest possible comparison based on everything at our disposal.
Yup, here's a quote from them too:

"Could be a stud if he puts it all together, a very intriguing prospect."

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07-01-2013, 12:52 AM
  #318
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
ISS compared Morin to Tyler Myers fwiw.
I've seen him compared to him as his UPSIDE. I've seen his more probable comparison being linked to Jan Hejda or Luke Schenn. Not quite as impressive is it?

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07-01-2013, 12:53 AM
  #319
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
I've seen him compared to him as his UPSIDE. I've seen his more probable comparison being linked to Jan Hejda or Luke Schenn. Not quite as impressive is it?
Schenn is a better defenseman than Myers right now...



EDIT: For ***** and giggles:

COBURN (#8 - 2003) : 6'5 - 227
AGE: 18 years + 4 months (5 months older)
16.5: 39 point pace
17.5: 26 point pace
18.5: 39 point pace
19.5: 53 point pace


SCHENN (#7 - 2013) : 6'2 - 220
AGE: 18 years + 8 months (9 months older)
16: 13 point pace
17: 29 point pace
18: 35 point pace
19: N/A


Last edited by CS: 07-01-2013 at 01:08 AM.
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07-01-2013, 12:54 AM
  #320
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That's the closest possible comparison based on everything at our disposal.
Tyler Myers is a ***** and the Sabres sure as hell dont have Pronger in this kids ear. This kid is going to be a beast.

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07-01-2013, 12:55 AM
  #321
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Schenn is a better defenseman than Myers right now...
Yes, but that's a defensive dman, not an offensive dman. As I said earlier, I think if he becomes another Luke schenn we should be happy with his development. I think that if we are expecting more than this that they will be disappointed.

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07-01-2013, 12:56 AM
  #322
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I've seen him compared to him as his UPSIDE. I've seen his more probable comparison being linked to Jan Hejda or Luke Schenn. Not quite as impressive is it?
No, but you've been talking in absolutes this whole thread to downgrade the kid. The fact is he could be a stud or he could be a dud we won't know until a couple years down the road.


Last edited by LegionOfDoom91: 07-01-2013 at 01:01 AM.
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07-01-2013, 01:02 AM
  #323
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Yes, but that's a defensive dman, not an offensive dman. As I said earlier, I think if he becomes another Luke schenn we should be happy with his development. I think that if we are expecting more than this that they will be disappointed.
You act as if luke has no offensive skill. He has a very heavy shot. Luke is NEVER going to be a puck carrier moving the puck up the ice, but honestly, I'd rather see him on the point of the PP releasing the cannon more than any other D man we have currently.

Braydon Coburn has ended up ALARMINGLY bad at this, I mean, Grossmann is better than him.

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07-01-2013, 01:04 AM
  #324
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No, but you've been talking in absolutes this whole thread. The fact is he could be a stud or he could be a dud we won't know until a couple years down the road.
So because I'm calling him a 2nd pairing defensive dman like ALL the scouts project him to be as opposed to jumping for joy tooting this pick as our saving grace I'm wrong??? Jesus, I swear it's like some of you live in fantasy land or something.


I'll say it again, I hope this kid goes through the roof and if that happens I will HAPPILY eat my crow. I'm just not a giddy with excitement over a draft when there was the potential to make a real impact for the present and/or future. I just don't see this draft day as something that was a real positive.

I wouldn't say we did good and I wouldn't say we did bad, we were "MEH". After having to endure this awful past season I was damned well hoping the draft would be something really positive that would come from it. It didn't happen. That just makes this past season that much more hard.

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07-01-2013, 01:05 AM
  #325
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
So because I'm calling him a 2nd pairing defensive dman like ALL the scouts project him to be as opposed to jumping for joy tooting this pick as our saving grace I'm wrong??? Jesus, I swear it's like some of you live in fantasy land or something.
Nobody is saying that Morin will become a top pairing defenseman. In fact, most are saying that it's unlikely though he has potential.

You, however, are just running around yelling just to yell at this point.

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