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Round 1, Pick #11: Samuel Morin, Defense, Rimouski (QMJHL)

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07-01-2013, 12:43 PM
  #401
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
I hope we DO revisit this thread in 3 years and I hope to God that I have to eat crow but mark my words, if you guys are expecting anything more than a 2nd pairing guy then you will be sorely disappointed.

We still don't have a future #1 dman anywhere in our organization. We don't even have a potential top pairing PMD anywhere in sight. For as much hype surrounded this draft and what we could do for our future, nothing has changed.

TBH, we should have jumped on the boat sooner and offered our pick to the Canucks for Schneider before the Devils got him. What Schneider could have done for us is greater than what Morin is likely to do for us.

That being said, I'm looking forward to seeing how we do moving forward from here. I won't say we came out of the draft losers, but we certainly didn't come out winners either.
You make a move for a guy like Schneider if you're a Stanley Cup contending team. The Flyers are not a Stanley Cup contending team. There are several holes that need to be addressed first and it was wise to pass on Schneider. What New Jersey was thinking is beyond me. With Brodeur still there, do you think DeBoer is going to give Schneider more games than Marty? Doubt it. So, the Devils acquired a starting goaltender who is going to be relegated to back up status and for what? New Jersey had even more holes to fill than the Flyers and I will go out and say that Lou really dropped the ball. He could have drafted a much needed winger to replace Elias and he failed. Schneider simply wasn't a need.

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07-01-2013, 12:50 PM
  #402
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
You make a move for a guy like Schneider if you're a Stanley Cup contending team. The Flyers are not a Stanley Cup contending team. There are several holes that need to be addressed first and it was wise to pass on Schneider. What New Jersey was thinking is beyond me. With Brodeur still there, do you think DeBoer is going to give Schneider more games than Marty? Doubt it. So, the Devils acquired a starting goaltender who is going to be relegated to back up status and for what? New Jersey had even more holes to fill than the Flyers and I will go out and say that Lou really dropped the ball. He could have drafted a much needed winger to replace Elias and he failed. Schneider simply wasn't a need.
And at the same time Vancouver did a dumb thing. They're either chained to Luongo's contract or they're going to be scrambling to find a goalie next offseason, since they don't have anyone else immediately NHL ready...unless they have loads of faith in Sunshine.

If he starts in their backup slot and does well, their "dumb thing" immediately begins to look geniusy.

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07-01-2013, 01:06 PM
  #403
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
You make a move for a guy like Schneider if you're a Stanley Cup contending team. The Flyers are not a Stanley Cup contending team. There are several holes that need to be addressed first and it was wise to pass on Schneider. What New Jersey was thinking is beyond me. With Brodeur still there, do you think DeBoer is going to give Schneider more games than Marty? Doubt it. So, the Devils acquired a starting goaltender who is going to be relegated to back up status and for what? New Jersey had even more holes to fill than the Flyers and I will go out and say that Lou really dropped the ball. He could have drafted a much needed winger to replace Elias and he failed. Schneider simply wasn't a need.
Brodeur is not a machine. I doubt Brodeur plays as much...Schneider will get his stints in a tandem situation and more so if Brodeur gets injured as he has been of late.

Yeah the Devils have needs but their entire system is reliant on strong team D and a legit number 1. With Schneider they at least have a chance at maintaining their "systemic continuity." I don't think he's dropped the ball at all...he just has more balls to juggle.

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07-01-2013, 01:08 PM
  #404
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Originally Posted by OccupySouthBroadSt View Post
Brodeur is not a machine. I doubt Brodeur plays as much...Schneider will get his stints in a tandem situation and more so if Brodeur gets injured as he has been of late.

Yeah the Devils have needs but their entire system is reliant on strong team D and a legit number 1. With Schneider they at least have a chance at maintaining their "systemic continuity." I don't think he's dropped the ball at all...he just has more balls to juggle.
We have the opposite kind of play.

We rely heavy on depth among skaters, and a #1 goaltender does not have to be "elite."

Not trading Coburn and Read, drafting two legitimate defensemen, and looking for FAs with a nice hefty amount of money to play with makes the most sense.

I'd rather have Morin than Schneider.

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07-01-2013, 01:17 PM
  #405
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I'm really curious what we would have done if we had 8. If we came out of this draft with Risto and Hagg that would have been sick.

Zad and Hagg to me that is similar to morin and hagg

But we had no shot at risto or nurse at 11. so to me morin over zad is fine. But if we had picked him at 8 there would be hell to pay.

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07-01-2013, 01:26 PM
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Keith Ballard just got put on waivers. Not familiar with his game, but is he worth picking up to help the D?

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07-01-2013, 01:28 PM
  #407
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Originally Posted by rWoHockeyman88 View Post
Keith Ballard just got put on waivers. Not familiar with his game, but is he worth picking up to help the D?
not at that cap hit

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07-01-2013, 01:53 PM
  #408
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And at the same time Vancouver did a dumb thing. They're either chained to Luongo's contract or they're going to be scrambling to find a goalie next offseason, since they don't have anyone else immediately NHL ready...unless they have loads of faith in Sunshine.

If he starts in their backup slot and does well, their "dumb thing" immediately begins to look geniusy.
Mike Gillis's ego got in the way there in Vancouver. He knew nobody was going to trade for Luongo and that he was going to have to buy him out. Why he prolonged the misery is beyond me. He got a decent return for Schneider, but Horvat probably won't crack the lineup in Vancouver any time soon. I really don't think Gillis has a clue what he's doing there.

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07-01-2013, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by rWoHockeyman88 View Post
Keith Ballard just got put on waivers. Not familiar with his game, but is he worth picking up to help the D?
A 30-year-old PMD that can't provide offense and is always hurt? At 4.20m/year for the next two years?

No thanks.

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07-01-2013, 02:02 PM
  #410
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Not happy with the draft at all.

1st round, oh boy, with so many qualitiy players left we have to gamble,right?

Because we hired the whole Preds scouting staff and now how to recognize and develop defenders. We could have taken Morrissey or Pulock but god forbid we may get a PMD.

2nd round, well, thank god, they didn't **** the bed. Hell, without Hägg you could have called the draft easily a disaster.

3rd round, , it's 1990 again. Se-****in-riously. That pick is so ****in ridicolous. If, next saison, the Flyers fail again, this maybe one of the reasons Homer needs to go.

Doesn't matter if it has any effect.

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07-01-2013, 02:07 PM
  #411
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Originally Posted by BackWithaVengeance View Post
Not happy with the draft at all.

1st round, oh boy, with so many qualitiy players left we have to gamble,right?

Because we hired the whole Preds scouting staff and now how to recognize and develop defenders. We could have taken Morrissey or Pulock but god forbid we may get a PMD.

2nd round, well, thank god, they didn't **** the bed. Hell, without Hägg you could have called the draft easily a disaster.

3rd round, , it's 1990 again. Se-****in-riously. That pick is so ****in ridicolous. If, next saison, the Flyers fail again, this maybe one of the reasons Homer needs to go.

Doesn't matter if it has any effect.
Flyers are suffering PTSD over the loss of Pronger and seeing how effective a player like Chara is. I think they really believe Morin is Pronger's replacement although like Bill noted Morin is no Pronger..and might be a better version of Luke Schenn if he pans out.

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07-01-2013, 02:10 PM
  #412
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Originally Posted by BackWithaVengeance View Post
Not happy with the draft at all.

1st round, oh boy, with so many qualitiy players left we have to gamble,right?

Because we hired the whole Preds scouting staff and now how to recognize and develop defenders. We could have taken Morrissey or Pulock but god forbid we may get a PMD.
As I said before, the only defenseman left on the board that I absolutely wanted more was Morrissey.

Zadorov is a lesser Morin in my opinion. Pulock is a much bigger risk. Mueller and Hagg are alright, but I don't see them as having #1 upside.

Theodore, McCoshen, Bigras, Santini, etc...are lesser defensemen at this point.

So this comes down to Morin vs. Morrissey.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BackWithaVengeance View Post
2nd round, well, thank god, they didn't **** the bed. Hell, without Hägg you could have called the draft easily a disaster.
Hagg in the 2nd was definitely a winner, but he doesn't have #1 upside unless he progresses as well as Carlson did. Even Carlson's not a #1 yet, if he becomes one.

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Originally Posted by BackWithaVengeance View Post
3rd round, , it's 1990 again. Se-****in-riously. That pick is so ****in ridicolous. If, next saison, the Flyers fail again, this maybe one of the reasons Homer needs to go.

Doesn't matter if it has any effect.
Holmgren wanted Z2. That's all there was to this. I don't like it, but he did.

Better he took him in the 3rd than in the 2nd.

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07-01-2013, 02:11 PM
  #413
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Originally Posted by OccupySouthBroadSt View Post
Flyers are suffering PTSD over the loss of Pronger and seeing how effective a player like Chara is. I think they really believe Morin is Pronger's replacement although like Bill noted Morin is no Pronger..and might be a better version of Luke Schenn if he pans out.
Morin is closest to an angry Myers. He skates better than Schenn and handles the puck better.

Hagg is most similar to Carlson.

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07-01-2013, 02:13 PM
  #414
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Morin is closest to an angry Myers. He skates better than Schenn and handles the puck better.

Hagg is most similar to Carlson.
Totally incorrect man. He handles the puck terribly honestly, and probably one of the things he most needs to work on. You can just see it in the U18 video.

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07-01-2013, 02:15 PM
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Morin has the highest upside next to Jones in the draft. His probability of hitting it isn't as good, but how you can say this guy has no upside is beyond me.
1. Reading.

2. Lack of realistic offensive upside basically cuts his ceiling in half. Morin doesn't have the stick-handling or puck skills to warrant this talk of fantastic upside. What does he project to do offensively that a typical NHL d-man cannot do? He has a hard shot, like 50% of the guys on an NHL d-unit do.


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07-01-2013, 02:30 PM
  #416
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1. Reading.

2. Lack of realistic offensive upside basically cuts his ceiling in half. Morin doesn't have the stick-handling or puck skills to warrant this talk of fantastic upside. What does he project to do offensively that a typical NHL d-man cannot do? He has a hard shot, like 50% of the guys on an NHL d-unit do.
Suter, Kronwall, Chara, Seabrook, Phaneuf, and Weber. Those are a few names of elite defenders who don't have "hands". How do they put up 40+ points a year? Because they are smart and have excellent hockey sense.

You don't need to be a silky-smooth Kris Letang or PK Subban or Erik Karlsson to be a #1 defender or to put up offensive numbers.

All the amateur scouts on HFboards are looking for "SKILL SKILL SKILL!". All the real scouts who, you know, watch these players (and not just on youtube), are looking for decision making ability and a general understanding of the game.

I'm not saying Morin will ever develop an offensive game, but to count it out because he doesn't have smooth hands or puck skills is just totally ignorant. Most elite defenders in the NHL don't have these skills. What they do have is elite hockey sense. That's what the scouts are looking for in these picks. It goes far beyond the flash and dance of Letang and Subban. There are many defenders who had the flashiness of Karlsson, Subban, and Letang but never panned out because they didn't think the game well.

I think it comes down to you people just having wildly inaccurate assumptions of what scouts are looking for. When a scout watches a game, they see it in a totally different eye than we fans do.

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07-01-2013, 02:46 PM
  #417
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Originally Posted by OccupySouthBroadSt View Post
Flyers are suffering PTSD over the loss of Pronger and seeing how effective a player like Chara is. I think they really believe Morin is Pronger's replacement although like Bill noted Morin is no Pronger..and might be a better version of Luke Schenn if he pans out.
I know, I just don't believe in Morin's potential. Of course, I'd love to eat crow for being wrong.

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07-01-2013, 02:47 PM
  #418
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Morin is closest to an angry Myers. He skates better than Schenn and handles the puck better.

Hagg is most similar to Carlson.
Man, I really hope it's true and he takes the same path.

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07-01-2013, 03:04 PM
  #419
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I think three players that were recently drafted are comparable to Morin:

-Myers (12th overall 2008)
-Cowen (9th overall 2009)
-Tinordi (22nd overall 2010)

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07-01-2013, 03:05 PM
  #420
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Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
Suter, Kronwall, Chara, Seabrook, Phaneuf, and Weber. Those are a few names of elite defenders who don't have "hands". How do they put up 40+ points a year? Because they are smart and have excellent hockey sense.

You don't need to be a silky-smooth Kris Letang or PK Subban or Erik Karlsson to be a #1 defender or to put up offensive numbers.

All the amateur scouts on HFboards are looking for "SKILL SKILL SKILL!". All the real scouts who, you know, watch these players (and not just on youtube), are looking for decision making ability and a general understanding of the game.

I'm not saying Morin will ever develop an offensive game, but to count it out because he doesn't have smooth hands or puck skills is just totally ignorant. Most elite defenders in the NHL don't have these skills. What they do have is elite hockey sense. That's what the scouts are looking for in these picks. It goes far beyond the flash and dance of Letang and Subban. There are many defenders who had the flashiness of Karlsson, Subban, and Letang but never panned out because they didn't think the game well.

I think it comes down to you people just having wildly inaccurate assumptions of what scouts are looking for. When a scout watches a game, they see it in a totally different eye than we fans do.
Morin's going to get top playing time in Rimouski this year. He's going to get power play and he's going to get a chance to develop his offensive game. More important, he's also going to get an opportunity to grow into his frame and add some weight. You'll see the agility improve as a result and you'll see a much more confident and well rounded player.

Morin is a project, no doubt about it. With that being said. he's got fantastic upside. He's big, he's mean, he's mobile and he has a high hockey IQ. There's optimism with Morin. I'm not the biggest fan (I was really, really, really hoping for Morrissey), but I get it and why the Flyers went with him.

As for people saying that the Flyers should have traded down, there were teams wanting to trade up for Morin, none more so than the Montreal Canadiens. I'm sure I'll grow to like the pick and as I mentioned earlier, if Sam becomes a better skating Derian Hatcher with the mean streak to boot, I don't think anyone will be complaining.

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07-01-2013, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Roo Mad Bro View Post
I think three players that were recently drafted are comparable to Morin:

-Myers (12th overall 2008)
-Cowen (9th overall 2009)
-Tinordi (22nd overall 2010)
- Teubert (13th overall 2008)

to add a negative

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07-01-2013, 03:34 PM
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Have any of you watched Morin for more than small video clips? Seen the kid develop since he was 15? This pick reminds me a lot of Tyler Myers, as they had similar offensive numbers in their draft years and of course have the size comparison and are both good skaters. Morin is pretty young though as he's not even 18 yet, so he has a lot of growing and developing ahead of him.

Since he was 15 he's seen a huge development in his game. I don't think it's out of the question that he will soon be elite defensively as far as Junior players go. The kid isn't even 18 yet and is already pretty good - he was stellar in the U18s. Morin also had a broken collarbone this season which likely affected his numbers. The fact remains though that he is incredibly toolsy - but raw.

I think a good projection for his development path might be another full year in the QMJHL where he will likely be the top defender on Rimouski - a team that has Frederik Gauthier and Phil Desrosiers who are two other stud prospects. I think they could do some damage in the Q. In 2014-15 I'd like to see him in the Q again but I think in 2014-15 he'll be on the World Junior team if he's not in the pros.

Really, it all depends on how he's developed. He has all the elements needed for being a top defender and he's the best defensive prospect we've had in decades if not of all time.

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07-01-2013, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by ELab2 View Post
- Teubert (13th overall 2008)

to add a negative
I have trouble with most of these comparables because they all seem to be just based on the size comparison. But most big defenders aren't gifted skaters. That's why Teubert, McIlrath, Schenn, etc. always had limited upside, and I see much more potential in Morin.


I think the closest in terms of skill set are Tyler Myers, Keaton Ellerby, and Braydon Coburn. They all had similar frames and "fluid" skating ability on their draft days. I think that's a pretty good range of potential ability, and obviously a blend of Myers and Coburn would be the best possible outcome. Another Ellerby is certainly possible, though, but from all that I've read, Morin has a good understanding of the game whereas Ellerby had questions regarding his decision making ability on draft day. I don't see similar reviews about Morin.

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07-01-2013, 04:01 PM
  #424
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahthorne;68425603[B
]Have any of you watched Morin for more than small video clips? S[/B]een the kid develop since he was 15? This pick reminds me a lot of Tyler Myers, as they had similar offensive numbers in their draft years and of course have the size comparison and are both good skaters. Morin is pretty young though as he's not even 18 yet, so he has a lot of growing and developing ahead of him.

Since he was 15 he's seen a huge development in his game. I don't think it's out of the question that he will soon be elite defensively as far as Junior players go. The kid isn't even 18 yet and is already pretty good - he was stellar in the U18s. Morin also had a broken collarbone this season which likely affected his numbers. The fact remains though that he is incredibly toolsy - but raw.

I think a good projection for his development path might be another full year in the QMJHL where he will likely be the top defender on Rimouski - a team that has Frederik Gauthier and Phil Desrosiers who are two other stud prospects. I think they could do some damage in the Q. In 2014-15 I'd like to see him in the Q again but I think in 2014-15 he'll be on the World Junior team if he's not in the pros.

Really, it all depends on how he's developed. He has all the elements needed for being a top defender and he's the best defensive prospect we've had in decades if not of all time.


Good post, anybody who's judging his skill based on a video should dig a little deeper. There's no more risk attached to Morin as there is Zadorov or Nurse and there's incredible upside to what Zadorov's ceiling will be. I'll agree that round 3 was a head scratcher, but the first two picks were almost no brainers.

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07-01-2013, 05:30 PM
  #425
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Originally Posted by ahthorne View Post
Have any of you watched Morin for more than small video clips? Seen the kid develop since he was 15? This pick reminds me a lot of Tyler Myers, as they had similar offensive numbers in their draft years and of course have the size comparison and are both good skaters. Morin is pretty young though as he's not even 18 yet, so he has a lot of growing and developing ahead of him.

Since he was 15 he's seen a huge development in his game. I don't think it's out of the question that he will soon be elite defensively as far as Junior players go. The kid isn't even 18 yet and is already pretty good - he was stellar in the U18s. Morin also had a broken collarbone this season which likely affected his numbers. The fact remains though that he is incredibly toolsy - but raw.

I think a good projection for his development path might be another full year in the QMJHL where he will likely be the top defender on Rimouski - a team that has Frederik Gauthier and Phil Desrosiers who are two other stud prospects. I think they could do some damage in the Q. In 2014-15 I'd like to see him in the Q again but I think in 2014-15 he'll be on the World Junior team if he's not in the pros.

Really, it all depends on how he's developed. He has all the elements needed for being a top defender and he's the best defensive prospect we've had in decades if not of all time.
Like your take on Morin, but as for your last point (bolded) .... ummm, Joni Pitkanen?

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