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How good could Tony Hand have been on the 80's Oilers?

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07-01-2013, 01:04 PM
  #51
DisgruntledGoat
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On the subject of Hand: I think you have to take Slats with a grain of salt when he's talking about, 'what could have beens'.

I have read quotes from him in the past about how the Oilers were, 'just about' to take Fleury and Bure before Calgary and Vancouver did. Yeah, the worst drafting team of the era had two huge steals on their radar. . .

I think he just does it because he knows its a good story. I mean. . . better hockey sense than Kurri? Really?

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07-01-2013, 02:21 PM
  #52
tombombadil
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Originally Posted by Stray Wasp View Post
In 96-97 Ken Hodge Jnr. (once a 30-goal scorer in the NHL), scored 16 goals and 29 assists in 34 BISL games. Make of that what you will.


In a sense, the remarkable thing about Hand is that he should have had a natural talent so far ahead of his fellow Brits.
I said this same thing earlier.

It really doesn't matter how shiny of a diamond he may have been. The fact that a diamond came from THAT rough is incredible. It speaks of massive natural ability. It's like finding someone with a competent array of boxing skills, honed in the jungles of Borneo against monkeys.

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07-01-2013, 02:25 PM
  #53
DisgruntledGoat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tombombadil View Post
I said this same thing earlier.

It really doesn't matter how shiny of a diamond he may have been. The fact that a diamond came from THAT rough is incredible. It speaks of massive natural ability. It's like finding someone with a competent array of boxing skills, honed in the jungles of Borneo against monkeys.
Monkeys are friggin' tough. If you can box a monkey, you're legit IMO.

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07-01-2013, 03:51 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Stray Wasp View Post
In 96-97 Ken Hodge Jnr. (once a 30-goal scorer in the NHL), scored 16 goals and 29 assists in 34 BISL games. Make of that what you will.

You'll notice that after 95-96, the British Hockey League became the Super League. Money flooded in (relatively speaking), and, coupled with the Bosman ruling, it became easier to sign imports. Teams had greater depth and quality, so players enjoyed shorter shifts and the game speeded up a little. Scoring plummeted, because defending and goaltending improved. Hand was 29 by then, and he found it harder to adapt to the new circumstances, having previously played 45+ minutes per night game in, game out. But adapt he did, and he was second in scoring in the 97-98 season. This while most of his compatriots were either warming benches or dropping into the second tier to find playing time.

Too much emphasis can't be placed on the fact that British hockey circa 81-96 simply wasn't fit for producing NHL-calibre players. Teams practiced a couple of times a week (usually late at night, because most players were amateur or semi-pro and hockey teams had to fit around ice skating activities at rinks) and played on weekends. Pretty much every North American who came to Britain had had enormous developmental advantages over Hand, regardless of their skill set. Hand said that the intensive practicing and playing schedules of North America exhausted him.

In a sense, the remarkable thing about Hand is that he should have had a natural talent so far ahead of his fellow Brits.
I agree that different players fair differently under different circumstances but one thing I can't understand is how a player who only managed to lead the british league in scoring three or four times (as you said) could be argued as being good compared to NHLers.

That is not very impressive. It means he was consistently beaten by brits. This to me makes it hard to understand the hype. Sure he had an developmental disadvantage but it seems he did not develop that far ahead of the other brits. But I am willing to hear arguments since you seem knowledgeble on the subject.

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07-01-2013, 04:10 PM
  #55
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_Hockey_Annual_Trophy

I can find his stats, and his team's stats on hockeydb, but i can't find league scoring stats.

Anyways, if that link even works, it is the trophy for the leading British scorer. He won 7 of them, out of 9 years it was awarded, and this is after his prime. Without knowing for sure, I think he was nearly always the top Brit, and often the top scorer overall, losing to Canadians when he lost.

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07-01-2013, 04:23 PM
  #56
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Here you go, Pluppe

http://www.coppernblue.com/2012/9/20...akes-his-debut

it was more impressive than I had guessed.

He was the ONLY Brit to take scoring titles away from the Canadians in that league, and was nearly ALWAYS the top Brit, by a mile. 15 years at top 10 in scoring in a league dominated by AHL and CHL-bred Canadians.


Last edited by tombombadil: 07-01-2013 at 04:52 PM.
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07-01-2013, 04:52 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tombombadil View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_Hockey_Annual_Trophy

I can find his stats, and his team's stats on hockeydb, but i can't find league scoring stats.

Anyways, if that link even works, it is the trophy for the leading British scorer. He won 7 of them, out of 9 years it was awarded, and this is after his prime. Without knowing for sure, I think he was nearly always the top Brit, and often the top scorer overall, losing to Canadians when he lost.
http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=20964

Just click the little arrow next to the league name for whichever season you want to see.

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07-01-2013, 05:08 PM
  #58
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Cheers, Vikke

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07-01-2013, 07:59 PM
  #59
Hardyvan123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tombombadil View Post
I said this same thing earlier.

It really doesn't matter how shiny of a diamond he may have been. The fact that a diamond came from THAT rough is incredible. It speaks of massive natural ability. It's like finding someone with a competent array of boxing skills, honed in the jungles of Borneo against monkeys.


Monkeys? Orangutangs rule.

Still makes you wonder what could have been with Hand though.

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07-02-2013, 03:28 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Uncle Rotter View Post
But would being outscored by Garry Unger be worse than being outscored by Rick Fera?
Good question. No doubt that Fera outscored several people who, on paper, he shouldn't have, Unger and Hand not the least. He was a couple of years Hand's senior, and after he left Murrayfield Hand upped his scoring.

British hockey has its fair share of anomalies. In 88-89, Vincent Lukac, who was then 34 but, lest we forget, a frequent top ten scorer in the Czechoslovak league and once a Golden Stick winner, joined Fife Flyers. For a linemate, Lukac had Jindrich Kokrment, who'd been a Czechoslovakian top ten scorer too and another Czech, Milan Figala, played defense.

Kokrment didn't make the top ten scorers that season. Lukac's fifth place finish trailed in 51 points behind Hand, who led the league in assists but fell six short of Rick Brebant points wise (playing one game fewer). Murrayfield's import forwards were Luc Beausoleil (who'd enjoyed a couple of prolific seasons in the QMJHL) and Louis Haman (who had no scoring pedigree whatsoever).

Talking of teammates, its worth mentioning that for several years the Racers lacked an offensive defenseman to complement Hand.


Last edited by Stray Wasp: 07-02-2013 at 04:29 AM. Reason: addition
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07-02-2013, 03:31 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Uncle Rotter View Post
GB started loading up with Canadians in 1990, which led to their quick rise to the A pool.
1990- 6
1991- 6
1992- 8
1993-10
1994-15

By contrast, I've only been able to find 2 Canadians playing for GB between 1953 & 1990.
GB certainly wouldn't have made Pool A without the dual nationals, but in the long term, that promotion served British hockey no use whatsoever.

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07-02-2013, 03:33 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by tombombadil View Post
I said this same thing earlier.

It really doesn't matter how shiny of a diamond he may have been. The fact that a diamond came from THAT rough is incredible. It speaks of massive natural ability. It's like finding someone with a competent array of boxing skills, honed in the jungles of Borneo against monkeys.
Funnily enough, Hand's brother Paul played too. He was a nuts and bolts defenseman, nothing more.

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07-02-2013, 04:07 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by tombombadil View Post
Here you go, Pluppe

http://www.coppernblue.com/2012/9/20...akes-his-debut

it was more impressive than I had guessed.

He was the ONLY Brit to take scoring titles away from the Canadians in that league, and was nearly ALWAYS the top Brit, by a mile. 15 years at top 10 in scoring in a league dominated by AHL and CHL-bred Canadians.
By my reckoning, he has 20 top ten finishes in the "elite" tier of British hockey, and he finished as top British-trained scorer (ignoring Canadian-reared players with British passports) 22 times. From 2001 to 2004 he played in the second tier.

Between 84-85 and 94-95, his margin of victory over the second placed Brit were as follows (all stats for league season only). Bolded figures indicate that the second placed Brit was Hand's teammate, Scot Neil.

61, 61, 92, 64, 89, 41, 49, 40, 77, 104, 84

The stats for 95-96 aren't complete, but he was 48 ahead of the nearest competitor I could confirm.

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07-02-2013, 07:17 AM
  #64
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Even Patrick Stefan could light up this league.



LOL
Oh my god, that defensemen

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07-06-2013, 04:50 PM
  #65
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A little off topic but is that Barry Davies with the call? If so, weird, weird, stuff.

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07-08-2013, 09:17 AM
  #66
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I think he probably would have been the type of guy that would score ya 20 goals a year and nothing more.

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07-10-2013, 04:02 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by darkhorse686 View Post
A little off topic but is that Barry Davies with the call? If so, weird, weird, stuff.
Yes it is the great man. Aside from football, he commentated on multiple sports for the BBC, notably tennis and field hockey.

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