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Old
07-01-2013, 04:17 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Hockey Buddha View Post
Tolerance? Let's consider what tolerance this tolerance looks like: MacTavish has been the GM for 10 weeks. There has been at least one Fire MacT thread on this board (8 weeks in) and people are giving him performance grades at the draft (10 weeks in) a few days after the Stanley Cup is awarded. Some people in this thread, including you (and I enjoy your posting by the way), are angrily writing about his inactivity and are seemingly surprised that in 10 weeks he hasn't found deals to turn around our franchise.

So far, MacTavish has made a few small but fairly significant moves. Anton Belov addresses a significant need on the blueline. He also addressed a weakness in the depth of our prospect system by turning a 2nd round draft pick into picks that enabled our scouts to draft two skilled Russian players with size and to place some great bets on players like Jackson Houck, Kyle Platzer and Aidan Muir. He's also been far from inactive and involved in the most discussions of any GM according to most reports; he just hasn't found a dance partner for a trade that makes our team better. It takes time to make such deals in the NHL and to find a partner in them. He has an entire summer to pull the trigger on some deals. Deals are going to happen between now and Free Agency, after more compliance buy-outs take place, etc., and beyond the remainder of the summer and on into the season. I'm glad MacTavish isn't merely in an assessment phase; he seems to know what this team's needs are, and he's actively pursuing it. Every GM is trying to make their team better, so it's not an easy process to acquire the pieces without giving up significant pieces in the process.


Couldn't deliver? After 10 whole weeks? Don't you think that you are being a tad unrealistic? I thought MacT said he was an impatient man. He should meet you!


agree about belov especially, with that signing alone i think we've at least upgraded on schultz/potter, i'm pretty interested to see if he can be a top 4 guy...

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07-01-2013, 04:17 PM
  #102
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Minny and Chicago aren't going to be in Edmonton's division next year, nor will they be playing against Edmonton any more than they will NYi and Toronto respectively.

Besides, the whole "I don't want to make ____ team better" is a loser mentality. You make trades that best improve your team, and if you can get a better return for your player by one team, that's the one you make IMO. It carries a little more weight when it's directly within your division, but as I mentioned earlier, that wasn't the case with Chicago or Minnesota.
The problem is that its hard to figure out intangibles.

And if you make a mistake in your division, than its obvious to everyone and their dog when said player puts you out of the playoffs...

High risk low reward for marginal increases in trade value. There is little upside making the teams you are directly playing aga9inst better.

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07-01-2013, 04:18 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by nullterm View Post
If MacT wanted a fair and level report card and time to work as GM, then he should have never come back to the Oilers with all his alumni buddies. People are already fed up with having a team that can't win for seven years. Coming back to the team where fans were saying "Fire MacT!" already when he was a coach was asking for punishment. Then making bold promises about huge changes happening rapidly is setting himself up to fail.

As long as he's GM for the Oilers, MacT will always be under a extra layer of scrutiny. Much of it earned by his own actions.
Because his coaching successors were so successful?

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07-01-2013, 04:19 PM
  #104
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Tolerance? Let's consider what tolerance this tolerance looks like: MacTavish has been the GM for 10 weeks. There has been at least one Fire MacT thread on this board (8 weeks in) and people are giving him performance grades at the draft (10 weeks in) a few days after the Stanley Cup is awarded. Some people in this thread, including you (and I enjoy your posting by the way), are angrily writing about his inactivity and are seemingly surprised that in 10 weeks he hasn't found deals to turn around our franchise.
Ive pointed out the good and the bad, as well as the ugly. So far. Which is the subject of the thread. I dont see how that is out of line. Mact made promises he hasnt been able to deliver on. That is pretty plain. The draft was one of the core opportunities for us to fill holes in the lineup. Mact has said there will be turnover of approx eight players in the lineup. So far we have possibly added one in Belov, who is a relative unknown. More unknown than such additions like Strudwick, Foster, Potter, etc.

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So far, MacTavish has made a few small but fairly significant moves. Anton Belov addresses a significant need on the blueline. He also addressed a weakness in the depth of our prospect system by turning a 2nd round draft pick into picks that enabled our scouts to draft two skilled Russian players with size and to place some great bets on players like Jackson Houck, Kyle Platzer and Aidan Muir.
Ive addressed Belov earlier. We dont know if he addresses a significant need or not at this point. As for Slepyshev and Yakimov, they may or may not ever set foot in NA with the intent to play hockey. As per the bolded, what is it that makes them "great bets"?

Until yesterday Ive never heard of two of them. Houck is decent, but still a big question mark as to whether or not he will ever play a game in the nhl. Personally I would have preferred to address a need with a more promising player such as Jarry or possibly Zykov, who was rated by some as a first round pick.

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He's also been far from inactive and involved in the most discussions of any GM according to most reports; he just hasn't found a dance partner for a trade that makes our team better. It takes time to make such deals in the NHL and to find a partner in them. He has an entire summer to pull the trigger on some deals. Deals are going to happen between now and Free Agency, after more compliance buy-outs take place, etc., and beyond the remainder of the summer and on into the season. I'm glad MacTavish isn't merely in an assessment phase; he seems to know what this team's needs are, and he's actively pursuing it. Every GM is trying to make their team better, so it's not an easy process to acquire the pieces without giving up significant pieces in the process.
Talk is cheap and so far that is pretty much all he has done. Despite specifically talking about using the draft and some of our picks to address IMMEDIATE needs on the club, his so called "bold" moves. There was none of that yesterday. Strike one.

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Couldn't deliver? After 10 whole weeks? Don't you think that you are being a tad unrealistic? I thought MacT said he was an impatient man. He should meet you!
I havent been given the opportunity. Give me a couple million dollars (Ill settle for 500k) and a Rolodex with all the gm contact numbers and then you could assess my performance. Of course I wouldnt be foolish enough to broadcast all the moves I planned to make beforehand, but to each his own I guess.

Nobody put a gun to Craig's head telling him to "give us ze information", he volunteered that all on his own, most likely in an attempt to assuage the masses from donning pitchforks and torches and storming the castle. These guys have been in charge more or less for the balance of 10+ years. They really have nobody to blame but themselves for the mess they find themselves in.

No more are they constrained by internal budgets that pale in comparison to their peers. They have a level economic playing field for the most part. As level as its been in the last 25yrs. The time for excuse making is done. We need results. Or gtfo of the way and get someone who is qualified to clean up the mess they have made.

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07-01-2013, 04:26 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Mentallydull View Post
I love all the comments about how we should've been in on xxx player.

How do you know we weren't? How do you know the teams weren't asking for too much? From the reports a week or so ago, MacT was all over the place talking to teams - that's not good enough? Do we want a trade for the sake of a trade?

It wouldn't surprise me that if MacT pulled the trigger on some of these deals you'd all be *****ing about how we overpaid.

He's still in on Coburn and we'll see how free agency goes before there's any judgement from my side.

I liked how he drafted, so he gets an A from me so far.
This seems the most reasonable explanation for the Lemming Olympics.

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07-01-2013, 04:30 PM
  #106
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Im sure this has been talked about many times before...but...I just tweeted it so I'll drop it in here too:

From the 2nd round or later...in the past 10 (ten) drafts...the Oilers have ONE guy in their current roster.

Jeff Petry.
Peckham? Horcoff? soon to be gone I suppose. Are you saying we need to hang onto our picks? If you look at the previous ten drafts there are several guys playing in other organizations. There is at least one player after the 1st round in each and every draft that is either currently on another team in the nhl or has had a cup of coffee with us or some other organization. There aren't any real steals but they have made some solid late picks. I would think they are middle of the pack in drafting success in that time period. I would think not have their own farm team over much of that time didn't help the development situation for lots of those guys.

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07-01-2013, 04:32 PM
  #107
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IATL...

I am willing to be Anton Belov will be an impressive recruit next year and quite possible for many years to come.

That's the best move Mac T has made for NEXT YEARS team and while it cant be the only move we make for short term improvement....its an important signing.

Don't kid yourself...this isn't Cam Barker 2.0. Not by a long shot.

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07-01-2013, 04:33 PM
  #108
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It proves we have FAILED to produce any quality out of our depth picks in...forever.
No. It means we had an incompetent staff that has since been fired.

Maybe try letting our prospects get a couple years into their career before claiming they're busts. Yakimov is already 18 and hasn't played a single game in the NHL!!! Bust!

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07-01-2013, 04:34 PM
  #109
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In my opionion it is lack luster. MacT promised changes and the draft is one of the best time to make those changes. And despite how hard he tried, he still failed.

The exact same excuses being trotted out for MacT now are the ones that were used for Tambo for the last handful of years.

"So you wanted him to overpay?"
"No other teams were making trades"
"He tried, but no one wanted to dance"
etc.

A good general manager needs to be able to make a good trade. No one is expecting MacT to overpay. But it does not take an overpay to make your team better. If one deal doesn't work because it would cost too much, then go out and get a different one done.

As for the argument that we still have months until the season start so plenty of time to improve the team... go back and tell me how often a team makes significant changes in the dead of the summer. MacT and the Oilers management realistically have about a week from the point free agency begins and at that point GM's shut down for business and don't open up again until training camp begins. Even then, there aren't really anymore trades until trade deadline.

Sure we can give MacT some more time. But in about 10 days he's going to have run out of time and we are going to have a pretty damned good idea what sort of shape this team is going to be in come next season. MacT has a **** tonne of work cut out for him.

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07-01-2013, 04:35 PM
  #110
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IATL...

I am willing to be Anton Belov will be an impressive recruit next year and quite possible for many years to come.

That's the best move Mac T has made for NEXT YEARS team and while it cant be the only move we make for short term improvement....its an important signing.

Don't kid yourself...this isn't Cam Barker 2.0. Not by a long shot.
We say that every year though. Im going to wait and see.

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07-01-2013, 04:36 PM
  #111
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You can tell the honeymoon period is in full effect for some around here when signing a maybe out of Russia, and drafting a bunch of players late in the draft who are unlikely to ever play a minute of hockey in the NHL is considered to be "making moves".

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07-01-2013, 04:36 PM
  #112
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No. It means we had an incompetent staff that has since been fired.

Maybe try letting our prospects get a couple years into their career before claiming they're busts. Yakimov is already 18 and hasn't played a single game in the NHL!!! Bust!
Stu has been here for half of those ten years.

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07-01-2013, 04:38 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by KlimasLoveChild View Post
Peckham? Horcoff? soon to be gone I suppose. Are you saying we need to hang onto our picks? If you look at the previous ten drafts there are several guys playing in other organizations. There is at least one player after the 1st round in each and every draft that is either currently on another team in the nhl or has had a cup of coffee with us or some other organization. There aren't any real steals but they have made some solid late picks. I would think they are middle of the pack in drafting success in that time period. I would think not have their own farm team over much of that time didn't help the development situation for lots of those guys.
Horc was taken in the 4rth round...I believe. But that was going back further than 10 years, right?

Peckham I am certain isn't in the plan any further here.

The lack of a farm team is something that gets brought up everytime we have this conversation and its a fair point. I don't deny.

Right meow...Im concerned guys like Pitlick & Lander aren't going to pull through as what we hoped for.

Its fair to say drafting is difficult for ALL teams after the 1rst round...but...the bottom line is we need to be better in that aspect.

I really think exploring the ECHL as a viable developmental branch is a MUST and its quite clear this club is making that happen. That's a good thing.

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07-01-2013, 04:40 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
We say that every year though. Im going to wait and see.
I didn't `wait and see with Cam Barker. I said it from day one that was a dumb idea.

And I`m saying right from day one here...this signing is the opposite of that. Belov will be loved.

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07-01-2013, 04:41 PM
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I didn't `wait and see with Cam Barker. I said it from day one that was a dumb idea.

And I`m saying right from day one here...this signing is the opposite of that. Belov will be loved.
We'll see. The KHL is a different game.

What were you saying about Foster, Strudwick, Potter etc. I guess we could even throw in Whitney while we are at it, although he is more well known.

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07-01-2013, 04:51 PM
  #116
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We'll see. The KHL is a different game.

What were you saying about Foster, Strudwick, Potter etc. I guess we could even throw in Whitney while we are at it, although he is more well known.
I was wrong on Foster. I felt he would be a good, cheap, short term replacement for Souray and that never happened.

I will stick to my guns on Potter. I said at the time...he was going to play with the big club even though most felt he was an AHL signing at the time. I think he`s a good, cost effective player whom we can improve on...but...he sticks here mainly because he is a bigger guy, with some smoothness to his game and shoots right.

Strudwick was always brutal. Not even a topic there.

Whitney...well...to be honest I can`t remember what my take on that one was.

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07-01-2013, 04:55 PM
  #117
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No. It means we had an incompetent staff that has since been fired.

Maybe try letting our prospects get a couple years into their career before claiming they're busts. Yakimov is already 18 and hasn't played a single game in the NHL!!! Bust!
Pendergrast was thankfully fired, although now he's ruining Hockey Canada, but a significant number of the amateur scouts have been here for a long time. Your post made me curious about who these amateur scouts are and whether the nepotism+incompetence combo runs in that department of hockey operations as well.

Bob Brown was hired as an amateur scout in 2002. Bill Dandy in 2000. Kent Hawley in 2005. Frank Musil in 2001. So, eleven, thirteen, eight, and twelve years ago. And that's just the ones I could find information for on Google since the Oilers media guide doesn't give anything but their name and position. I'd be willing to bet that, outside of Pelle Eklund, the rest of them have been here for ~eight years or longer. Appointed by the Lord of the Rings, in other words.

This is the same **** as Krueger and Renney being canned but Kelly Buchberger working for his fifth(!) head coach. Any housecleaning was in name only.

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07-01-2013, 04:59 PM
  #118
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Pendergrast was thankfully fired, although now he's ruining Hockey Canada, but a significant number of the amateur scouts have been here for a long time. Your post made me curious about who these amateur scouts are and whether the nepotism+incompetence combo runs in that department of hockey operations as well.

Bob Brown was hired as an amateur scout in 2002. Bill Dandy in 2000. Kent Hawley in 2005. Frank Musil in 2001. And that's just the ones I could find information for on Google since the Oilers media guide doesn't give anything but their name and position. I'd be willing to bet that, outside of Pelle Eklund, the rest of them have been here for ~eight years or longer. Appointed by the Lord of the Rings, in other words.

This is the same **** as Krueger and Renney being canned but Kelly Buchberger working for his fifth(!) head coach. Any housecleaning was in name only.
Prendergast was fired by Hockey Canada(along with Tugnutt) after the WJC this year.

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07-01-2013, 05:00 PM
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Pendergrast was thankfully fired, although now he's ruining Hockey Canada, but a significant number of the amateur scouts have been here for a long time. Your post made me curious about who these amateur scouts are and whether the nepotism+incompetence combo runs in that department of hockey operations as well.

Bob Brown was hired as an amateur scout in 2002. Bill Dandy in 2000. Kent Hawley in 2005. Frank Musil in 2001. So, eleven, thirteen, eight, and twelve years ago. And that's just the ones I could find information for on Google since the Oilers media guide doesn't give anything but their name and position. I'd be willing to bet that, outside of Pelle Eklund, the rest of them have been here for ~eight years or longer. Appointed by the Lord of the Rings, in other words.

This is the same **** as Krueger and Renney being canned but Kelly Buchberger working for his fifth(!) head coach. Any housecleaning was in name only.
Very good point. Thanks for that. KP has since been fired (recently) from Hockey Canada.

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07-01-2013, 05:02 PM
  #120
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Prendergast was fired by Hockey Canada(along with Tugnutt) after the WJC this year.
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Very good point. Thanks for that. KP has since been fired (recently) from Hockey Canada.
Oh, so I guess he'll be back with the Oilers organization in a year or two.


On second thought, no sarcasm needed.

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07-01-2013, 05:05 PM
  #121
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Oh, so I guess he'll be back with the Oilers organization in a year or two.


On second thought, no sarcasm needed.
I thought I saw him in WEM the other day.

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07-01-2013, 05:09 PM
  #122
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Horc was taken in the 4rth round...I believe. But that was going back further than 10 years, right?

Peckham I am certain isn't in the plan any further here.

The lack of a farm team is something that gets brought up everytime we have this conversation and its a fair point. I don't deny.

Right meow...Im concerned guys like Pitlick & Lander aren't going to pull through as what we hoped for.

Its fair to say drafting is difficult for ALL teams after the 1rst round...but...the bottom line is we need to be better in that aspect.

I really think exploring the ECHL as a viable developmental branch is a MUST and its quite clear this club is making that happen. That's a good thing.
Fair enough, they should constantly be trying to get better. I would have to say that I'm pretty disappointed in the last batch of supposed prospects which were to be the support for the big 4. Hamilton, Pitlick,Lander, Hartikanen,.. I was hoping all these guys would be regulars or knocking on the door by now. As it is I don't have a lot of confidence any of them will make it.

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07-01-2013, 05:37 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Ive pointed out the good and the bad, as well as the ugly. So far. Which is the subject of the thread. I dont see how that is out of line. Mact made promises he hasnt been able to deliver on. That is pretty plain. The draft was one of the core opportunities for us to fill holes in the lineup. Mact has said there will be turnover of approx eight players in the lineup. So far we have possibly added one in Belov, who is a relative unknown. More unknown than such additions like Strudwick, Foster, Potter, etc.
Expressing what you want to do isn't the same as a promise.

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Ive addressed Belov earlier. We dont know if he addresses a significant need or not at this point. As for Slepyshev and Yakimov, they may or may not ever set foot in NA with the intent to play hockey. As per the bolded, what is it that makes them "great bets"?
Belov isn't an entirely known commodity, but I think that it's fair to say that his game should translate fairly well into him being a solid addition to the blueline without giving up any assets for him. He adds an immediate physical element to the blueline that we are lacking. The KHL is the second best league in the world, after all.

As for the others, MacGregor indicated that Slepyshev and Yakimov are keen to play in the NHL. Given that Yakimov attended Yakipov's camp, I think that it is likely that the Oilers have some inside info on his willingness to play in NA. It appears that the Russian picks were a part of the Oilers draft strategy and hence why they were willing to trade down with the 37th pick.

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Until yesterday Ive never heard of two of them. Houck is decent, but still a big question mark as to whether or not he will ever play a game in the nhl. Personally I would have preferred to address a need with a more promising player such as Jarry or possibly Zykov, who was rated by some as a first round pick.
A second round pick has about a 1 in 4 shot of being an NHL regular. MacTavish visited Russia with MacGregor and some others prior to the draft, so one can assume that these players were under observation and that the Oilers were also doing their due diligence on them.

I don't expect that you should have heard of them, as you're not an NHL scout, but when you read about these players, you should be able to assess that there is some intelligence behind these picks and that there are some solid reasons for drafting them as potential diamond in the rough picks.

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Talk is cheap and so far that is pretty much all he has done. Despite specifically talking about using the draft and some of our picks to address IMMEDIATE needs on the club, his so called "bold" moves. There was none of that yesterday. Strike one.
I think that MacT'd agree with you that talk is cheap. He's said it himself. The trouble with making deals is that you need other people to be in the same mindset to make a deal. I imagine that trust is key and finding an appropriate match for needs. I think that if you rush into deals as an NHL GM, then you get fleeced. MacTavish was in the midst of every deal that would potentially improve the Oilers. It's about a willingness and having appropriate limits on what one is willing to give up as well. Trading within one's conference is difficult (Schneider), and MacT apparently put in a lot of leg work on Coburn which may come to a fruition later or not at all. Teams are likely to be much more free to make deals until all options are first explored.

This franchise is on the way up. It could be sunk quite easily by someone who deals away significant parts of the future for more immediate success.

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I havent been given the opportunity. Give me a couple million dollars (Ill settle for 500k) and a Rolodex with all the gm contact numbers and then you could assess my performance. Of course I wouldnt be foolish enough to broadcast all the moves I planned to make beforehand, but to each his own I guess.
I think that you're misreading my meaning here. I was more implying how impatient you are being with MacT as GM.

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Nobody put a gun to Craig's head telling him to "give us ze information", he volunteered that all on his own, most likely in an attempt to assuage the masses from donning pitchforks and torches and storming the castle. These guys have been in charge more or less for the balance of 10+ years. They really have nobody to blame but themselves for the mess they find themselves in.
No, but I like that he was being forthright with the fans. I think the fans deserve to know the direction that he wants to take the team. Do you think based on what he's told us that it is incorrect?

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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
No more are they constrained by internal budgets that pale in comparison to their peers. They have a level economic playing field for the most part. As level as its been in the last 25yrs. The time for excuse making is done. We need results. Or gtfo of the way and get someone who is qualified to clean up the mess they have made.
Here's where we differ: I don't think it's fair to include MacT as a participant in "the mess they have made." He wasn't GM after 2006, when the team was gutted after the playoffs. He was the coach.

Anyhow, I enjoyed your post!

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Old
07-01-2013, 06:08 PM
  #124
I am the Liquor
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Expressing what you want to do isn't the same as a promise.
He said he was going to do x and instead he did y. Semantics dont change that.

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Belov isn't an entirely known commodity, but I think that it's fair to say that his game should translate fairly well into him being a solid addition to the blueline without giving up any assets for him. He adds an immediate physical element to the blueline that we are lacking. The KHL is the second best league in the world, after all.
The KHL is a much different game than the NHL. Not a lot of body contact over there. How many of us had even heard of Belov before the Oilers were reported to be in the running to sign him? He has been sold as a physical guy with a cannon from the point. What he does over here is yet to be seen and any proclamations of slotting in the top four are premature.

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As for the others, MacGregor indicated that Slepyshev and Yakimov are keen to play in the NHL. Given that Yakimov attended Yakipov's camp, I think that it is likely that the Oilers have some inside info on his willingness to play in NA. It appears that the Russian picks were a part of the Oilers draft strategy and hence why they were willing to trade down with the 37th pick.
They are both currently under contract in the khl. Whether or not they come over here is yet to be seen. Even if they do, the minute they find it less than appealing they can always go back to the khl. That is the risk that you sign on for with these players.

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A second round pick has about a 1 in 4 shot of being an NHL regular. MacTavish visited Russia with MacGregor and some others prior to the draft, so one can assume that these players were under observation and that the Oilers were also doing their due diligence on them.

I don't expect that you should have heard of them, as you're not an NHL scout, but when you read about these players, you should be able to assess that there is some intelligence behind these picks and that there are some solid reasons for drafting them as potential diamond in the rough picks.
Ive heard of both of them and have seen both play, although only in international play/Subway series. Not particularly struck by either of them, but Im sure they have seen them more than myself as well as live of course. That said we dont have a very good record for finding anything useful outside the first round as Everest has already pointed out.

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I think that MacT'd agree with you that talk is cheap. He's said it himself. The trouble with making deals is that you need other people to be in the same mindset to make a deal. I imagine that trust is key and finding an appropriate match for needs. I think that if you rush into deals as an NHL GM, then you get fleeced. MacTavish was in the midst of every deal that would potentially improve the Oilers. It's about a willingness and having appropriate limits on what one is willing to give up as well. Trading within one's conference is difficult (Schneider), and MacT apparently put in a lot of leg work on Coburn which may come to a fruition later or not at all. Teams are likely to be much more free to make deals until all options are first explored.
If he agreed, then why did he do it? Either he was stretching the truth in some pr exercise gone wrong or he really believed he could accomplish something significant at the draft. The exact opposite happened. That is significant and should be noted imo.

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This franchise is on the way up. It could be sunk quite easily by someone who deals away significant parts of the future for more immediate success.
I agree and noted it in the "good" part of my assessment.

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I think that you're misreading my meaning here. I was more implying how impatient you are being with MacT as GM.
Im discussing what he has done (or not done) up until now as per the thread title.

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No, but I like that he was being forthright with the fans. I think the fans deserve to know the direction that he wants to take the team. Do you think based on what he's told us that it is incorrect?
I dont have a problem with that. However that isnt really what he did. He did do that but then he went much further, stating players names that werent going to be back, saying he was going to make bold moves with our draft picks to acquire immediate help, and so on. He was pretty specific and yes, some of those things have come and gone with no results and no payoff.

Quote:
Here's where we differ: I don't think it's fair to include MacT as a participant in "the mess they have made." He wasn't GM after 2006, when the team was gutted after the playoffs. He was the coach.
I believe he had a hand in personnel decisions. We saw that with Renney in Oil Change. I believe they acquired Potter on his recommendation. I cant believe Mactavish never enjoyed the same access. The point being Mactavish had a pretty good kick at the cat already. Eight years. And now he is back for more. Again with zero experience. Im of the opinion that fans should be demanding more from the organization. I think Lowe, Mact and anyone/everyone else associated with them have had MORE than enough time to right the ship.

Seven years and counting without even one solitary playoff appearance is more than any fan should have to bear, without significant change, and that means cleaning house, top to bottom. Its time for real change. Not picking out a scapegoat at the end of the year and sacrificing him on the Gretzky statue and pretending that's good enough.

In the end we get what we deserve. If we keep buying what these guys are selling then we arent going to see real change. Im not buying what they are selling.

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Old
07-01-2013, 06:10 PM
  #125
The Nuge
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
I thought I saw him in WEM the other day.

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