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Round 1, Pick #11: Samuel Morin, Defense, Rimouski (QMJHL)

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Old
07-01-2013, 05:43 PM
  #426
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Originally Posted by Bob Clarke Fan Club View Post
Good post, anybody who's judging his skill based on a video should dig a little deeper. There's no more risk attached to Morin as there is Zadorov or Nurse and there's incredible upside to what Zadorov's ceiling will be. I'll agree that round 3 was a head scratcher, but the first two picks were almost no brainers.
I disagree with the posts that these players are all raw prospects with an equal level of question about their development. Reading Morin's scouting report, I was struck by the laundry list of holes in his current game. Risks are there, but when you're hoping an offensive game pops up, you're really going against logic more than working on better footwork or defensive angles.

And why did I want Zadorov more? I trust the Knights' system to better put him in the best position to excel than the Oceanique.

I still dislike this draft but that's a downgrade from full-out, pace-around, mutter-to-myself anger. This is primarily due to the understanding that the first 10 picks went almost textbook negatively for the Flyers. I'd like to interject at this point that it has been a couple of hours since someone sarcastically posted how pleased they are at the Flyers end-of-season win streak. I console myself that Holmgren's draft page has several better picks scratched out; however, my cynical brain region (yeah, it's the dominant one) says that the Flyers FO defines BPA as "best puncher available".

All I see from a hugely deep draft is a tall, defensive goon, a potential PMD steal in the 2nd round (yay!), a goon, and an assortment of other junior players too insignificant to even be trivia answers. Oh, and the usual assortment of "Paul Holmgren may be the busiest GM this weekend" rumours that amounted to exactly nothing.

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07-01-2013, 05:45 PM
  #427
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Originally Posted by CarlRacki View Post
Like your take on Morin, but as for your last point (bolded) .... ummm, Joni Pitkanen?
I also wanted to argue that point, but aside from Pitkanen I'm drawing a blank. Over the course of 40, nearly 50 years, that's depressing. Incredibly depressing, even. ****, you'd think they would accidentally draft someone great in that time.

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07-01-2013, 05:57 PM
  #428
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I also wanted to argue that point, but aside from Pitkanen I'm drawing a blank. Over the course of 40, nearly 50 years, that's depressing. Incredibly depressing, even. ****, you'd think they would accidentally draft someone great in that time.
Murray Baron?
Gord Murphy?
Dmitri Yuskevich?
Chris Thierren?
Jane Niinimaa?
Behn Wilson?
Seidenberg?
Thomas Eriksson?

All these guys were pretty solid players, in the early 80's to early 90's our D drafting was pretty good, especially in the lower rounds.

Apart from Thierren though we did not keep hold of them for any considerable amount of time! Anyone know why Eriksson went back to Sweden, guy looked a pretty handy player from stats!

Edit: Watson, Bladon and McCarthy as well, but they were a loooooooooong time ago!

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07-01-2013, 05:59 PM
  #429
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I remeber Niinnamaa Prospal and Zubrus were considered to be 3 of the top 50 prospects in the nhl. ANd then within 1 year they were all traded lol.

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07-01-2013, 06:11 PM
  #430
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Originally Posted by OccupySouthBroadSt View Post
Flyers are suffering PTSD over the loss of Pronger and seeing how effective a player like Chara is. I think they really believe Morin is Pronger's replacement although like Bill noted Morin is no Pronger..and might be a better version of Luke Schenn if he pans out.
A better version of Luke Schenn? I take that all day and run. Hope Bill is right.

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07-01-2013, 06:15 PM
  #431
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Originally Posted by Appleyard View Post
Murray Baron?
Gord Murphy?
Dmitri Yuskevich?
Chris Thierren?
Jane Niinimaa?
Behn Wilson?
Seidenberg?
Thomas Eriksson?

All these guys were pretty solid players, in the early 80's to early 90's our D drafting was pretty good, especially in the lower rounds.

Apart from Thierren though we did not keep hold of them for any considerable amount of time! Anyone know why Eriksson went back to Sweden, guy looked a pretty handy player from stats!

Edit: Watson, Bladon and McCarthy as well, but they were a loooooooooong time ago!
Which Watson? I think at least one of them was grabbed in the Expansion draft. (Ah. Quick googling seems to indicate Joe was a Bruin and Jim started as a Flyer)

I'm thinking of HoF caliber guys, or at least franchise Dmen. Those guys you listed are solid, but not on that level. Think of Timonen; we just haven't really acquired players like that from the draft for the most part, unless my memory is failing me. My knowledge of pre-90's/00 players isn't great, so that's a good possibility.

It just seems that, compared to the drafting at other positions, the Flyers have a big gap at D through their existence. Of the Watson Bros, Howe, Desjardins, Timonen, Pronger...the Flyers have generated only Jim Watson on their own and that was a long time ago.

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07-01-2013, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I also wanted to argue that point, but aside from Pitkanen I'm drawing a blank. Over the course of 40, nearly 50 years, that's depressing. Incredibly depressing, even. ****, you'd think they would accidentally draft someone great in that time.
Jeff Woywitka was once considered a big-bodied prospect who was only "scratching the surface" of what he could become, so you can add him too.

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07-01-2013, 06:19 PM
  #433
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Suter, Kronwall, Chara, Seabrook, Phaneuf, and Weber. Those are a few names of elite defenders who don't have "hands". How do they put up 40+ points a year? Because they are smart and have excellent hockey sense.

I'm not saying Morin will ever develop an offensive game, but to count it out because he doesn't have smooth hands or puck skills is just totally ignorant. Most elite defenders in the NHL don't have these skills. What they do have is elite hockey sense. That's what the scouts are looking for in these picks. It goes far beyond the flash and dance of Letang and Subban. There are many defenders who had the flashiness of Karlsson, Subban, and Letang but never panned out because they didn't think the game well.
I would think that if he truly has promising offensive instincts and "thinks the game" well, he would be putting his tools to work against a level of competition that he towers over and can dominate physically. Weber, Chara and Myers are three outliers in almost 2 decades of drafting. Don't see how the others work as comps, and I think you are underselling the level of talent that is required to put up points consistently at the NHL level.

Also, if you are lowering the bar such that you'll give Morin 7-10 years to develop 2-way ability, that effectively reduces the upside of the pick, since you are going way past ELC years into UFA territory.


Last edited by Damaged Goods: 07-01-2013 at 06:25 PM.
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07-01-2013, 06:26 PM
  #434
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I also wanted to argue that point, but aside from Pitkanen I'm drawing a blank. Over the course of 40, nearly 50 years, that's depressing. Incredibly depressing, even. ****, you'd think they would accidentally draft someone great in that time.
Sbisa didn't look too bad when he first came up but then Stevens started playing him at winger.

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07-01-2013, 06:30 PM
  #435
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Jeff Woywitka was once considered a big-bodied prospect who was only "scratching the surface" of what he could become, so you can add him too.
I was a big fan of Dmitri Teryshny. I thought that young man had a chance to be very special. Kid had tools and really seemed to fit in. Very sad.

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07-01-2013, 06:31 PM
  #436
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Sbisa didn't look too bad when he first came up but then Stevens started playing him at winger.
Flyers hockey!

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07-01-2013, 06:32 PM
  #437
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Sbisa didn't look too bad when he first came up but then Stevens started playing him at winger.
Luca should have stayed in junior. But he is a solid pro.

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07-01-2013, 06:43 PM
  #438
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlRacki View Post
Like your take on Morin, but as for your last point (bolded) .... ummm, Joni Pitkanen?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I also wanted to argue that point, but aside from Pitkanen I'm drawing a blank. Over the course of 40, nearly 50 years, that's depressing. Incredibly depressing, even. ****, you'd think they would accidentally draft someone great in that time.
I think when I said 'defensive prospect' I meant as a shutdown defender, as in I think he has the highest blue-chip defensive potential of any defender I've seen the Flyers draft. Of course Pitkanen would be our only other real blue-chip draft pick on defense, but IIRC he was more of an offensive player, right?

I like that the team finally has some players who have potential to be really, really good defensively.

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07-01-2013, 06:49 PM
  #439
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Luca should have stayed in junior. But he is a solid pro.
IIRC he made the big club because of injuries but I agree he should have been given a full two years in juniors after his draft year. He's still not a bad player now but I think those two years would done him better.

When a coach starts playing your top defensive prospect as a forward I think that's hint that either kid should be back in juniors or the coach is an Idiot and therefore needs to be fired.

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07-01-2013, 07:02 PM
  #440
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I would think that if he truly has promising offensive instincts and "thinks the game" well, he would be putting his tools to work against a level of competition that he towers over and can dominate physically. Weber, Chara and Myers are three outliers in almost 2 decades of drafting. Don't see how the others work as comps, and I think you are underselling the level of talent that is required to put up points consistently at the NHL level.

Also, if you are lowering the bar such that you'll give Morin 7-10 years to develop 2-way ability, that effectively reduces the upside of the pick, since you are going way past ELC years into UFA territory.
Those players were not named as comparables to Morin. They were named to show that the NHL's "elite" defenders are not necessarily guys with "skill", at least in the traditional sense of hands, slick puckhandling, etc.

The reality is that there are very few players who translate prolific offensive numbers from the junior level to the NHL. Most of these players end up busting or becoming defensive liabilities who get used sparingly. The real outliers are the Karlssons, Letangs, and Subbans. The traditional #1 defender is someone who puts up offensive numbers because of a thorough understanding of the game and excellent hockey sense NOT because of slick skills and stickhandling. These are your Suters, Charas, Webers, Prongers, and that's why I named them.

Now, I'm not saying Morin is a hidden treasure trove of untapped offensive potential. I'm just saying that to count out any offensive ability because he doesn't have sweet hands would be pretty foolish. The scouts aren't looking for sweet hands and flashy skills. They're looking for a deeper understanding of the game. If Morin has that, he could be a stud.

Of course, it's just as possible that he doesn't have that and becomes a total dud of the ilk of Keaton Ellerby. Like I said before, anything from Ellerby to a Myers/Coburn hybrid is a realistic projection for him.

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07-01-2013, 07:04 PM
  #441
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I was a big fan of Dmitri Teryshny. I thought that young man had a chance to be very special. Kid had tools and really seemed to fit in. Very sad.
Tertyshny quickly became my second favorite player behind Brind'Amour that year.

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07-01-2013, 07:08 PM
  #442
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What was Tertyrshny's upside?

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07-01-2013, 07:09 PM
  #443
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I think he'll realistically be a 2nd pair dman who will be about 6'7 230-240 lbs, who can skate, hit and play the toughest minutes against the opponents top line.

Basically, a real pain in the ass to play against who will be a force defensively.

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07-01-2013, 07:42 PM
  #444
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What was Tertyrshny's upside?
He could have been a number 3, maybe a number 2. He was so smooth out there. Great skater, great positioning, active stick, was just a good player who would have broken through. His death really had a traumatic effect on a number of players within the organization at the time. If I remember correctly, one of them had a nervous breakdown and another one ended up quitting hockey because he became an alcoholic trying to forget what happened.

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07-01-2013, 08:06 PM
  #445
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He is no longer handling the Q

"The trio handling the CHL (Canadian Junior Leagues) are former Flyer Mark Greig (WHL), Dennis Patterson (OHL) and Todd Hearty (QMJHL)."

http://flyers.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=675644
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But he did scout Morin:

Morin, scouted by former Flyer Simon Nolet, is intriguing because of his size and physicality...

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/...efensemen.html

"Simon Nolet and Todd Hearty spent a lot of time following Sam around," Holmgren said. "They're very excited that we were able to draft him."

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/...e_defense.html
Thank you. Do you really think Nolet would really stop scouting his bread and butter? The guy got a promotion. That doesn't mean he stopped doing what made him and this organization successful.

The scary part about Morin is that he's no where near his physical peak. He's one of the youngest guys in the draft (something that gets overlooked too much). You can see in his face that he is not done maturing. He's got a lot of projection left to his frame. As he starts to gain muscle mass, it's going to be scary what this kid will be like from a physical standpoint. His stride will get stronger. His shot will get harder (combined with his leverage). He got limited PP time this year. That will change. That can only help his confidence. Like I said weeks before the draft, his upside is as high as almost any guy in this draft. Will he achieve it? That is up to him and the development staff, but for a team that has been lacking that impact defenseman for years, this was the guy they had to take. And to the people who say he has no offensive upside, stop watching box scores. He's not a stiff with the puck, he can skate, he has a big shot that will only get better. Does he have the greatest hands? No, but they will get better with time and confidence. I imagine a kid that had such a growth spurt had at least a little trouble with his coordination and adjusting to his body. Most reports say the kid is a bright hockey player, which may be the trait that gives the most optimism. There will be an emphasis on his offensive game. Just be patient.


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07-01-2013, 08:11 PM
  #446
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Thank you. Do you really think Nolet would really stop scouting his bread and butter? The guy got a promotion. That doesn't mean he stopped doing what made him and this organization successful.

The scary part about Morin is that he's no where near his physical peak. He's got a lot of projection left to his frame. As he starts to gain muscle mass, it's going to be scary what this kid will be like from a physical standpoint. His stride will get stronger. His shot will get harder (combined with his leverage). He got limited PP time this year. That will change. That can only help his confidence.
This.

Morin has not even finished puberty, the kid is still growing and for him to be such a fluid athlete before he has hit adulthood is scary. That can't be said for many players goiing forward such as pulock who has most likely topped out physically.

When looking at the flyers picks it looks like they take guys who are low on people's radar because of lack of physical development. The flyers look at this draft as a bunch of teenagers who have a whole lot of physical development in front of them and when that is over and done with they can then be judged.

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07-01-2013, 08:22 PM
  #447
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I know the Pronger comparison has been thrown around some but that is obviously a stretch at best. However, I don't get the predictions that he'll never be a top pairing dman.

The comparison I see is to Derian Hatcher. I am pretty sure Hatch had a cup of coffee as a #1 dman.

After Nish was gone the rest of the 1st rd all had question marks. I was not a fan of Poluck.


Last edited by lancer247: 07-01-2013 at 08:24 PM. Reason: typo
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07-01-2013, 08:34 PM
  #448
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Jeff Woywitka was once considered a big-bodied prospect who was only "scratching the surface" of what he could become, so you can add him too.
He considered himself to have a similar style to Dan McGillis.

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07-01-2013, 08:59 PM
  #449
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Apart from Thierren though we did not keep hold of them for any considerable amount of time! Anyone know why Eriksson went back to Sweden, guy looked a pretty handy player from stats!
Eriksson had two separate stays with the team, the first lasted parts of two seasons but he got homesick for Sweden and returned there after a game or two in his second NHL season.

When he returned, he made the all-rookie team (he didn't lose his rookie status based on games played the first time with the team) but he wasn't a consistent force on the blueline. It was around this time when the four horses made a strong impact: Mark Howe, Brad Marsh, Brad McCrimmon and Doug Crossman.

When Eriksson returned, under Bob McCammon, Pelle Lindbergh had established himself and there seemed to be an opening for Eriksson who was generally quiet off-the-ice and rarely seemed comfortable or even happy. After Lindbergh got into into the fatal accident, Eriksson left for Sweden following that season.

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07-01-2013, 09:04 PM
  #450
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He could have been a number 3, maybe a number 2. He was so smooth out there. Great skater, great positioning, active stick, was just a good player who would have broken through. His death really had a traumatic effect on a number of players within the organization at the time. If I remember correctly, one of them had a nervous breakdown and another one ended up quitting hockey because he became an alcoholic trying to forget what happened.
I believe Francis Belanger had a full on nervous breakdown after, completely blamed himself as he was driving the boat... he went from one of the Phantoms best rookies the year before to a complete mess who couldn't play a game, then fell into alcoholism and substance abuse, the Flyers cut him for it, ended up sorting it out a few years later. Still plays in the LNAH.

Looking it up now it seems Chernov did not seem as affected at the time, even though Tertyshny was his best friend, he had a better season the year after and looked to be progressing well. But he said more recently that it killed his passion for playing hockey, and after that it was just a job, and he wanted a new start. Ended up having an ok career in Russia.

I read Zelepukin was badly affected as well, he was not there but a great friend of Tertyshny.

I also read a while back that Tertyshny's son played for the Junior Flyers and now the Valley Forge Minutemen... and that the Flyers Organization has helped out the family a lot over the years. And people say were unclassy!

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