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Post-Draft emptiness.. am i the only one?

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Old
07-01-2013, 04:21 PM
  #101
AJMHABS
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For the posters who weren't so crazy about the Habs draft this year, but I'm really satisfied with what MB and TT had. They added skill sets we were missing in our prospect pool and in the big club, size, grit, goaltending, and we even added some more skill. We're even being praised by the rest of the league for having a draft day. I'm especially happy with the Fucale and Lehkonen picks.

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07-01-2013, 07:25 PM
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJMHABS View Post
For the posters who weren't so crazy about the Habs draft this year, but I'm really satisfied with what MB and TT had. They added skill sets we were missing in our prospect pool and in the big club, size, grit, goaltending, and we even added some more skill. We're even being praised by the rest of the league for having a draft day. I'm especially happy with the Fucale and Lehkonen picks.
This is what we've added under two Bergevin drafts.

Galchenyuk
Collberg
Thrower
Bozon
Vail
Hudon
Nystrom
McCarron
De La Rose
Fucale
Lehkonen
Crisp
Andrighetto
Reway
Gregoire

People criticizing Habs for going for only size? Only Mccarron, De La Rose and Crisp fit that bill. The rest ooze skill.

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07-01-2013, 08:24 PM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
This is what we've added under two Bergevin drafts.

Galchenyuk
Collberg
Thrower
Bozon
Vail
Hudon
Nystrom
McCarron
De La Rose
Fucale
Lehkonen
Crisp
Andrighetto
Reway
Gregoire

People criticizing Habs for going for only size? Only Mccarron, De La Rose and Crisp fit that bill. The rest ooze skill.
I didn't say that they only went for size, I said they added something that we lack in our prospect pool and even on the Habs, and I applaud them for that. But I don't understand why posters aren't more excited for adding an element we've been missing for a while. Not only did they go for size, but they also added skill and another element we needed for a while, goaltending and I like what what MB and TT did, although I wanted them to pick a defenseman or two.

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07-01-2013, 09:30 PM
  #104
brunosevigny
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My picks:
#25: Valentin Zykov
#34: Michael McCarron (if still there), if not Fucale
#36: Zack Fucale
#55: Arturri Lekhonen
#71: Pavel Buchnevich
#86: Torn between Andrighetto (local boy), Bjorkstrand and Cehlarik

Then it's a crapshot for me. Would probably have pick Hudson Fasching at #116. Really like the Gregoire pick in round 6.

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07-01-2013, 09:47 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
ummmmmm.....no

We had far more picks at better positions this season than last. The only advantage from last season was the 1st pick......that is it
no just 2 in the second round. and they didn't even have a a 5th

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07-01-2013, 09:55 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Ginu View Post
Are you a scout?
Do you know anything about the draft?
I'm a retired scout and he's not completely wrong
no
i'm
not

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07-01-2013, 10:05 PM
  #107
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07-01-2013, 10:09 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by AJMHABS View Post
I didn't say that they only went for size, I said they added something that we lack in our prospect pool and even on the Habs, and I applaud them for that. But I don't understand why posters aren't more excited for adding an element we've been missing for a while. Not only did they go for size, but they also added skill and another element we needed for a while, goaltending and I like what what MB and TT did, although I wanted them to pick a defenseman or two.
We have Beaulieu, Tinordi, Thrower, Ellis, Dietz and Didier as NHL potential prospects. I' m pretty sure we'll survive with our current D core. I'm not worried 1bit, Bergevin is simply going to have a more D oriented draft next season, that's all.

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07-01-2013, 10:43 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
This is what we've added under two Bergevin drafts.

Galchenyuk
Collberg
Thrower
Bozon
Vail
Hudon
Nystrom
McCarron
De La Rose
Fucale
Lehkonen
Crisp
Andrighetto
Reway
Gregoire

People criticizing Habs for going for only size? Only Mccarron, De La Rose and Crisp fit that bill. The rest ooze skill.
Thank you for posting this. I would have if I were more motivated to do this research. Clearly, we have enough talent to fill 4 top two lines.

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07-01-2013, 10:57 PM
  #110
HabsProspectsExpert
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My Montreal Draft:
25. Marko Dano (R) - KHL - 5"11 - [27]
34. Robert Hagg (D) - SEL - 6"02 - [41]
36. Nick Sorensen (R) - QMJHL - 6"01 - [45]
55. Artturi Lehkonen (L) - SM-Liiga - 5"11 - [55]
71. Oliver Bjorkstrand (R) - WHL - 5"11 - [89]
86. Peter Cehlarik (L) - SElite - 6"02 - [90]
116. Eric Roy (D) - WHL - 6"03 - [135]
176. Lucas Wallmark (C) - SEL - 6"00 - Undrafted
(206). Nikita Tryamkin (D) - Russia - 6"07 (19) - Undrafted

High interest in the undrafted: Connor Rankin, Jesse Lees, Juuso Ikonen, Nikolas Brouillard, Jeadon Descheneau, Roberts Libsberg, Tyler Kelleher and Filip Sandberg.

Should have found a way to picked Anton Slepyshev in the 2012 draft.


Last edited by HabsProspectsExpert: 08-16-2013 at 12:00 PM.
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07-01-2013, 11:14 PM
  #111
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They wanted Horvat.. Not morin. Man lies spread fast Here. Read the tweets after Vancouver picked.
Exactly!

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07-01-2013, 11:25 PM
  #112
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already started counting the days down to the 2014 draft
my precious..



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Old
07-01-2013, 11:34 PM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxpac View Post
We have Beaulieu, Tinordi, Thrower, Ellis, Dietz and Didier as NHL potential prospects. I' m pretty sure we'll survive with our current D core. I'm not worried 1bit, Bergevin is simply going to have a more D oriented draft next season, that's all.
I'm not worried about our d core, but I thought the MB should have picked a defenseman to bolster an already above average d core.

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07-01-2013, 11:52 PM
  #114
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25: Wanted Lazar when he fell... then Rychell... then McCarron... So it's ok. Hartman was next in line.
34: Wanted Dauphin. De La Rose is growing on me though.
36: Expected Fucale. Good pick.
55: Wanted Carrier
71: Would've picked Hayden, but I guess Crisp in kind of in the same mold
86: Would've picked Subban right there. Andrighetto is not a bad pick though.

After this, really, I have no clue.

All in all, satisfied with the draft we had. Would've done some things a little differently, but who am I to judge anyway?

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07-02-2013, 12:16 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
I'll just be happy if one of McCarron, De La Rose of Crisp play in the nhl consistently.
Let me guess... You think Zykov, Dauphin and Duclair would stand a better chance of making it?

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07-02-2013, 12:51 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
Let me guess... You think Zykov, Dauphin and Duclair would stand a better chance of making it?
No, I think it's unrealistic to expect three forwards in one draft to be fulltime nhlers, especially since two of the three are more of the project type. The only year that happened under Timmins is 05 with Latendresse, D'agostini and Sergei Kostitsyn. Two of three are journeymen nhlers and the third just signed in Russia I believe.

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07-02-2013, 01:20 AM
  #117
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No, I think it's unrealistic to expect three forwards in one draft to be fulltime nhlers, especially since two of the three are more of the project type. The only year that happened under Timmins is 05 with Latendresse, D'agostini and Sergei Kostitsyn. Two of three are journeymen nhlers and the third just signed in Russia I believe.
How is expecting three forwards to pan out any more unrealistic than expecting 3 PLAYERS to pan out, when we picked 8 players in one draft and 7 of them were forwards? This is a completely illogical statement. Them being all forwards impacts in no way the probability they pan out.

As for drafts with 3 players who played in the NHL:
2003: Kostitsyn, Lapierre, O'Byrne, Halak
2004: Chipchura, Grabovski, Streit, Emelin
2005: Price, Latendresse, D'Agostini, Kostitsyn
2007: McDonagh, Pacioretty, Subban, Weber
2008: None so far. Kristo is likely.
2009: None so far. Dumont is a wildcard.
2010 already has two players who played in the NHL in Tinordi and Gallagher. Both are going to be NHL players as well.
2011: Beaulieu has played and will be an NHLer. Dietz too, likely. Nygren is a wildcard.
2012: Galchenyuk already is an NHLer. Collberg is likely. Bozon and Hudon are probably going to be up there too at some point.

It's all a matter of having a successful draft. Only time will say if this one was successful. But thinking "We rarely had three forwards become NHLers in one single draft before, so it's not likely to happen in this one", while completely ignoring the fact that unlike in those other drafts, we actually drafted 7 forwards this time... It means absolutely nothing. They have as big a chance to pan out as if we picked 3 forwards, 3 d-men and 2 goalies. Odds are that about 3 or 4 of them play in the NHL at some point, all positions included, if we look at Timmins' history.

You also conveniently ignored Lehkkonen, to single out Crisp for some reason, which suggests you're once again following through with your little agenda. Wanting superior skills is one thing; fact is, late in the 1st round, or in the subsequent rounds, there's no player out there available who are supposed to become "superior". Valentin Zykov SCREAMS Andrei Kostitsyn. We don't need more Andrei Kostitsyn. We need more Alex Galchenyuk. And with some luck, a Gallagher here and there. Which is EXACTLY what we tried to pull off with the Andrighetto pick.

But it's unfair to expect superior talent when we're among the last ones to speak.

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07-02-2013, 01:32 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
How is expecting three forwards to pan out any more unrealistic than expecting 3 PLAYERS to pan out, when we picked 8 players in one draft and 7 of them were forwards? This is a completely illogical statement. Them being all forwards impacts in no way the probability they pan out.

As for drafts with 3 players who played in the NHL:
2003: Kostitsyn, Lapierre, O'Byrne, Halak
2004: Chipchura, Grabovski, Streit, Emelin
2005: Price, Latendresse, D'Agostini, Kostitsyn
2007: McDonagh, Pacioretty, Subban, Weber
2008: None so far. Kristo is likely.
2009: None so far. Dumont is a wildcard.
2010 already has two players who played in the NHL in Tinordi and Gallagher. Both are going to be NHL players as well.
2011: Beaulieu has played and will be an NHLer. Dietz too, likely. Nygren is a wildcard.
2012: Galchenyuk already is an NHLer. Collberg is likely. Bozon and Hudon are probably going to be up there too at some point.

It's all a matter of having a successful draft. Only time will say if this one was successful. But thinking "We rarely had three forwards become NHLers in one single draft before, so it's not likely to happen in this one", while completely ignoring the fact that unlike in those other drafts, we actually drafted 7 forwards this time... It means absolutely nothing. They have as big a chance to pan out as if we picked 3 forwards, 3 d-men and 2 goalies. Odds are that about 3 or 4 of them play in the NHL at some point, all positions included, if we look at Timmins' history.

You also conveniently ignored Lehkkonen, to single out Crisp for some reason, which suggests you're once again following through with your little agenda.
What agenda? You just get defensive about anything you think disagrees with your agenda. You're pretty sensitive. I think it's time to get over it. It's old and stale.

I said I'd be happy with any of the three bigger prospects making the nhl fulltime as they will fill a need in the team that we don't have. I don't need to mention Lehkonen as he won't fit that need so I don't see the reason to include him in the discussion. You should relax and stop thinking everyone is against you. There's actually nothing controversial in claiming that I'd be happy with one of three making it. If anything it speaks more of your insecurity, than my supposed 'agenda'....but then again, you think anyone who disagrees with you to have an agenda.

I still think it's unrealistic to expect all three to amount to fulltime nhl players, especially considering two of them are projects. If those three players in particular make it, the habs will be pretty lucky, but I'm skeptical. Has nothing to do with size, I think the same applied to the forwards picked after as well, but I'm not so much concerned with them as we have players like that in the system.

In 2005 they picked 5 forwards, and while three played in the nhl, none of the three amounted to anything worthwhile long term. Is it a causal rule? Nope, but with two projects of the three, I say the odds are against them. Not every player drafted will make it. I like De La Rose's chances the most as he is the safest pick, followed by McCarron.

Also, it's not necessarily illogical. It is much easier to go three for 7 than 3 for 3. It's more likely to say that three out the seven players we picked will make than those three in particular.


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07-02-2013, 01:48 AM
  #119
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What agenda? You just get defensive about anything you think disagrees with your agenda. You're pretty sensitive. I think it's time to get over it. It's old and stale.

I said I'd be happy with any of the three bigger prospects making the nhl fulltime as they will fill a need in the team that we don't have. I don't need to mention Lehkonen as he won't fit that need so I don't see the reason to include him in the discussion. You should relax and stop thinking everyone is against you. There's actually nothing controversial in claiming that I'd be happy with one of three making it. If anything it speaks more of your insecurity, than my supposed 'agenda'....but then again, you think anyone who disagrees with you to have an agenda.

I still think it's unrealistic to expect all three to amount to fulltime nhl players, especially considering two of them are projects. If those three players in particular make it, the habs will be pretty lucky, but I'm skeptical. Has nothing to do with size, I think the same applied to the forwards picked after as well, but I'm not so much concerned with them as we have players like that in the system.

In 2005 they picked 5 forwards, and while three played in the nhl, none of the three amounted to anything worthwhile long term. Is it a causal rule? Nope, but with two projects of the three, I say the odds are against them. Not every player drafted will make it. I like De La Rose's chances the most as he is the safest pick, followed by McCarron.

Also, it's not necessarily illogical. It is much easier to go three for 7 than 3 for 3. It's more likely to say that three out the seven players we picked will make than those three in particular.
How is De La Rose more likely to make it to the NHL than McCarron. For all we know, Grégoire might end up being the best guy out there. Look no further than Gallagher.

What I do know though, is that everybody here didn't mind last year when their golden boys got picked, but this year, for some reason, everybody wants Timmins' head on a pyke because he got some guys who are less skilled than last year as a whole, but grittier/tougher/more complete. If anything, this year is more about safe bets than last year. Crisp is a project. Fine. Anything can happen.

McCarron is still seen by a lot of people as being a very safe pick, in the sense that if he doesn't pan out offensively, he still is going to be a serviceable player on a team's bottom-6, thanks to his size and his speed.

And with the recent success the Swedish development program had for forwards (Tedenby, Josefson, Forsberg, ...), I'm not sure De La Rose is the safest prospect to make it in that group.

Some said Crisp was likely to become anything between Matt Hendricks and Shawn Thornton. If that's the case, it's fantastic. Most 3rd rounders don't amount to that.

Just like a guy like McCarron ending up as the forward version of Byfuglien, or Bryan Bickell wouldn't be disappointing at all.

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07-02-2013, 02:06 AM
  #120
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How is De La Rose more likely to make it to the NHL than McCarron. For all we know, Grégoire might end up being the best guy out there. Look no further than Gallagher.

What I do know though, is that everybody here didn't mind last year when their golden boys got picked, but this year, for some reason, everybody wants Timmins' head on a pyke because he got some guys who are less skilled than last year as a whole, but grittier/tougher/more complete. If anything, this year is more about safe bets than last year. Crisp is a project. Fine. Anything can happen.

McCarron is still seen by a lot of people as being a very safe pick, in the sense that if he doesn't pan out offensively, he still is going to be a serviceable player on a team's bottom-6, thanks to his size and his speed.

And with the recent success the Swedish development program had for forwards (Tedenby, Josefson, Forsberg, ...), I'm not sure De La Rose is the safest prospect to make it in that group.

Some said Crisp was likely to become anything between Matt Hendricks and Shawn Thornton. If that's the case, it's fantastic. Most 3rd rounders don't amount to that.

Just like a guy like McCarron ending up as the forward version of Byfuglien, or Bryan Bickell wouldn't be disappointing at all.
People have been describing McCarron as a gamble...a good gamble though. Yes he might end up like Byfuglien, Bickell, but he might also be a Boyle, Jessiman and all the other reaches and attempts to find the next Lucic. Of course, I'm not saying he is more likely to end up like the latter two.

Crisp is a project, no matter how you slice it. We are essentially hoping he can be a Shawn Thornton, Matt Hendricks. Some also question whether he would have been drafted at all had the habs not picked him. While he could amount to those two, he could amount to nothing at all. We could play the "he could" game all day long, but in the end, he's a project...which means a lot in the way of prospects.

De La Rose seems like a safe pick because he has good speed, size, defensive ability, tenacity and agility. The biggest question here is his offensive ability (probably the biggest factor to determine what type of player he is), but his fundamentals are good (doesn't mean he doesn't need work and that he's ready right now). He also already plays against men, which is another positive factor. He's a safe pick imo, which is why he is the most likely of the three, at least for me, to be an nhler down the road. How he will contribute in the nhl will depend on his development.

Of course anything can happen, but you are taking more risks with prospects described as gambles and projects than ones described as safe. Of course these are gambles the habs need to take. The three are the types of players the Habs are missing in their prospect pool and on the team in general. One makes it, I'm happy. Having those three in particular out of the 7 we drafted make it to the nhl is pretty unlikely. For instance, it's a bet I wouldn't be willing to make. Could it happen? Sure, anything could happen...but while that says something, it says nothing at all at the same time.

I get that everyone is excited that we drafted some bigger players, but we need to tame our expectations. Just because they are bigger, doesn't mean they are a lock to make it. If they do make it, it's great news, but I think it's more likely that one makes it and I'm totally fine with that happening...like I said, I'll be happy.


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07-02-2013, 05:12 AM
  #121
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I think people over-hyped on Fucale. Goalies are a shot in the dark, they are so under-developed at 18 it is near impossible to get a good one. Fucale likely a wasted pick as good talent available at 36 and most top rated goalies in draft hardly ever best goalie in draft. Majority don't make it or average at best. What's wrong with a Justin Bailey type? Or dealing the pick to move up to get a Hartman or McCoshen?

I did a little research a few years back...covering over 20 draft years from late '80s to 2006 only goalie to be best goaie in their draft year was Luongo in 1997. There were 3 years where it was debatable like Price as good as Rask or Quick? Fleury as good as Howard or Crawford? Giguere as good as Kiprusoff? The other 16 out of 20 drafts, goalie(s) from late rounds ended up better than top picked goalie. Majority of top selected goalies weren't much or never made it...Finley, Hillier, Montoya, DiPietro, Leclair, Storr, Chouinard, etc... While in same drafts guys like Rinne, Lundqvist, Ryan Millier, Salo, Vokurn, Craig Anderson, Mike Smith came from late rounds of draft.

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07-02-2013, 06:24 AM
  #122
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no just 2 in the second round. and they didn't even have a a 5th
2013 Entry 25 1 Michael McCarron R U.S. National Development Team [USHL]
2013 Entry 34 2 Jacob De La Rose C Leksands IF [Swe-1]
2013 Entry 36 2 Zachary Fucale G Halifax Mooseheads [QMJHL]
2013 Entry 55 2 Artturi Lehkonen L KalPa Kuopio [SM-liiga]
2013 Entry 71 3 Connor Crisp C Erie Otters [OHL]
2013 Entry 86 3 Sven Andrighetto R Rouyn-Noranda Huskies [QMJHL]
2013 Entry 116 4 Martin Reway L Gatineau Olympiques [QMJHL]
2013 Entry 176 6 Jeremy Gregoire C Baie-Comeau Drakkar [QMJHL]


2012 Entry 3 1 Alex Galchenyuk C Sarnia Sting [OHL] 48 9 18 27 20
2012 Entry 33 2 Sebastian Collberg R Vastra Frolunda HC [SEL]
2012 Entry 51 2 Dalton Thrower D Saskatoon Blades [WHL]
2012 Entry 64 3 Tim Bozon L Kamloops Blazers [WHL]
2012 Entry 94 4 Brady Vail C Windsor Spitfires [OHL]
2012 Entry 122 5 Charles Hudon L Chicoutimi Sagueneens [QMJHL]
2012 Entry 154 6 Erik Nystrom L Modo Hockey Ornskoldsvik [SEL]

My god you people are thick!

The only pick (as I pointed out earlier) that there was an appreciable advantage for in the 2012 draft was the first pick. The second pick was essentially in the same spot but the following 5 picks there was a distinct advantage in the 2013 draft.

There was even a bonus 8th pick in 2013......discussion over

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07-02-2013, 07:40 AM
  #123
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I'm fine with the picks made. Not that I know these players because I didn't watch any of them play, but because it seems logical to draft bigger players to count on diversity for the future. Last year, Bergevin and Timmins were successful in drafting the BPA. They went for bigger projects this year and I'm all for that.

Drafting the best goaltender available is also awesome.

All in all, I trust Timmins.

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07-02-2013, 07:41 AM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Mats86 View Post
I think people over-hyped on Fucale. Goalies are a shot in the dark, they are so under-developed at 18 it is near impossible to get a good one. Fucale likely a wasted pick as good talent available at 36 and most top rated goalies in draft hardly ever best goalie in draft. Majority don't make it or average at best. What's wrong with a Justin Bailey type? Or dealing the pick to move up to get a Hartman or McCoshen?
Most reports I've red disagree with you.

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07-02-2013, 07:44 AM
  #125
Catz
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Says the Habs tried to trade up in the draft. Which team did they try and trade with.

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