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Relo vs Expansion - The Pros and Cons of QC and SEA

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Old
07-02-2013, 05:33 AM
  #476
uhlaw97
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Meanwhile, a far larger market than either Seattle or Quebec City waits.


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07-02-2013, 05:47 AM
  #477
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Canada doesn't have 15 cities large enough to support an NHL team so that pipe dream can go bye-bye.
You could put 2 more in Ontario. Hamilton and To2. If Laval Qc was not a huge corrupt mess right now they could maybe build an NHL calibre arena and get in line. Than there Quebec city and that about it. Everybody else in Canada is too small or already have a team.

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07-02-2013, 08:01 AM
  #478
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Canada doesn't have 15 cities large enough to support an NHL team so that pipe dream can go bye-bye.
I always enjoy talking Hockey-business with people who appear to have no grasp of the business of Hockey, or it's market's. I'm left to repost something I've already posted because it applies here and essentially destroys your faulty argument;

There is a paper on the new economics of the NHL that state's the following; that Canada has so few NHL teams because of the monopoly structure of the league, not due a lack of local demand or economic viability.

-That Southern Ontario can support two more teams – one new team in the Greater Toronto Area and another in Hamilton, London or Kitchener-Waterloo.

-That Vancouver and Montreal can each support a second team.

-That Quebec City could also be successful homes to NHL franchises.

The paper estimates that a team located in Canada can expect to take in roughly $23 million per year in extra gate revenue, relative to an American market of the same size. A major increase in the supply of NHL hockey to Americans has not led to a commensurate jump in demand.

It states that Hockey is still not a closely followed sport in much of the US. Many US teams are struggling financially, despite being heavily subsidized by local taxpayers and Canadian fans. There are also questions about whether Canadian tax dollars are being used to subsidize unprofitable American teams through the NHL’s television contracts.

According to the paper the league clearly has no interest in having supply meet demand, but rather benefits from ensuring that supply always remains somewhat below demand. That the market did not decide that Canada should only have seven teams, or that Southern Ontario should only have one...the NHL did.

Other interesting facts; Canada has only one-fifth of NHL teams, but generates nearly one-third of the league’s revenues. During the first rounds of last year’s NHL playoffs, Canadians were 40 times as likely as Americans to have watched hockey. Quebecers were as much as 90 times as likely. Most of the approximately $100 million a year that the CBC pays for Canadian TV broadcast rights ends up in the pockets of US teams. The same goes for the rights fees paid by TSN and RDS. The Edmonton Oilers, despite playing in one of the smallest markets in the NHL, and the third-smallest arena, generate more ticket revenue than 21 out of 24 American teams. The Phoenix Coyotes earned more money in transfers from Canada than from local ticket sales.

It surmises Canada can support 12 to 15 NHL teams.

"Six of the seven Canadian teams are above the 700,000-fan threshold (and therefore made money). So did Winnipeg, with roughly 560,000 fans. In total, Canadian teams brought in $219 million in operating profits in 2011-12 — whereas the American teams made a net of just $31 million. (Outside of the highly profitable Rangers, in fact, the United States-based teams lost money that year.)"

Quote from an article from the NY Times about why Canada hasn't won a cup since 93'. but it's actually a good article on the differences between Canadian and American markets using the numbers to explain how Canada essentially supports the league.

The article
http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes...nley-cup/?_r=0

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07-02-2013, 08:11 AM
  #479
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Originally Posted by uhlaw97 View Post
Meanwhile, a far larger market than either Seattle or Quebec City waits.

Atlanta? Houston? Who??

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07-02-2013, 08:57 AM
  #480
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Making the case for Seattle isn't acting "entitled". People who are acting like the NHL OWES them a team are the ones acting entitled. I'll leave it to the fair minded reader to peruse the appropriate threads and figure out which posters are which.
You had, at one point, only some obscure hedge fund manager acquiring land, yet that was enough to cement people's opinion that Seattle was destined to get a team. Up to a week and a half ago, you had no potential ownership candidates, yet it didn't change the message. Great, make a case for Seattle, but you cannot remain blind to deficiencies of the market.

Maybe "entitlement" might be the wrong word, maybe "owes" is also not fitting, but when the only argument for months is "We're going to get an NHL club next year, because we're Seattle and we're better than you," its something and it doesn't come off any better than the Canadian nationalist "Canada is hockey" view.


Last edited by htpwn: 07-02-2013 at 09:17 AM.
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07-02-2013, 09:02 AM
  #481
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You haven't seen any of that from Seattle fans? Really?

'Cause I've certainly seen a lot of it, on both sides of the debate.
Quebec City fans are way over the top. I might be flamed for this, but I don't see them getting a team for a while (unless there are absolutely no other cities in the US that do not want a team). I don't think they "deserve" it either. Yes the market will sell out games, but other than that there is minimal growth nationally for the NHL both in Canada and definitely in the US if QC got a team.

It's worse than Markham.

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07-02-2013, 09:03 AM
  #482
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Atlanta? Houston? Who??
Probably Houston given OP's avatar.

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07-02-2013, 09:08 AM
  #483
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Quebec City fans are way over the top. I might be flamed for this, but I don't see them getting a team for a while (unless there are absolutely no other cities in the US that do not want a team). I don't think they "deserve" it either. Yes the market will sell out games, but other than that there is minimal growth nationally for the NHL both in Canada and definitely in the US if QC got a team.

It's worse than Markham.
I don't think you understand the fact that the people in Quebec City and Eastern Québec spend little to nothing on the NHL right now.

Maybe they watch some games on TV. And they go to see the many LHJMQ games.

But little to no money goes from their pockets to the NHL.

By serving this market the NHL will make a lot of money and sell a lot of merchandise.

It will be tremendious, immediate growth, instead of insanely unlikely, very long term theorethical growth!

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07-02-2013, 09:15 AM
  #484
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Originally Posted by Acesolid View Post
I don't think you understand the fact that the people in Quebec City and Eastern Québec spend little to nothing on the NHL right now.

Maybe they watch some games on TV. And they go to see the many LHJMQ games.

But little to no money goes from their pockets to the NHL.

By serving this market the NHL will make a lot of money and sell a lot of merchandise.

It will be tremendious, immediate growth, instead of insanely unlikely, very long term theorethical growth!
People seem to forget the difference in league revenues when the NHL moved the Thrashers to Winnipeg. Minus to positive. It doesn't matter if the people living there are rabid hockey fans or not, but for 16 years the money spent on the NHL by people in Winnipeg was minimal. That changed when they got a team.

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07-02-2013, 09:25 AM
  #485
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You haven't seen any of that from Seattle fans? Really?

'Cause I've certainly seen a lot of it, on both sides of the debate.
Seattle fans are reacting to the idea that it is even possible that the NHL may come to Seattle and reacting with great enthusiasm which should be understandable to all. A small minority of QC fans have made it their goal to belittle the Seattle market while claiming the NHL owes them something. Maybe QC is owed something from the NHL but bashing Seattle and its potential is not necessary.

I don't know of any Seattle booster that thinks or has posted we are owed anything from the NHL. We are responding to rumors/leaks whatever you want to call them.

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07-02-2013, 10:02 AM
  #486
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Originally Posted by KevFu View Post



Sorry, that was me rambling. Your post said something absolutely brilliant: "before enough people get po'd and something stupid happens ala rival league." That's how most those cities got teams in the first place. In the US, that'd be a foolproof way of getting a team into a sports league. Start a rival league and sue for anti-trust.





The USFL did this and won an anti-trust law suit against the NFL.
Total monies won? $ 3.00..... Good Luck with that suit!

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Old
07-02-2013, 10:48 AM
  #487
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I haven't read the whole thread but say the Coyotes are sold to group X. Is there any part of that money that goes to the players? Or is it the same as expansion money and it all goes to the owners?

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07-02-2013, 11:35 AM
  #488
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cotton View Post
I always enjoy talking Hockey-business with people who appear to have no grasp of the business of Hockey, or it's market's. I'm left to repost something I've already posted because it applies here and essentially destroys your faulty argument;

There is a paper on the new economics of the NHL that state's the following; that Canada has so few NHL teams because of the monopoly structure of the league, not due a lack of local demand or economic viability.

-That Southern Ontario can support two more teams – one new team in the Greater Toronto Area and another in Hamilton, London or Kitchener-Waterloo.

-That Vancouver and Montreal can each support a second team.

-That Quebec City could also be successful homes to NHL franchises.

The paper estimates that a team located in Canada can expect to take in roughly $23 million per year in extra gate revenue, relative to an American market of the same size. A major increase in the supply of NHL hockey to Americans has not led to a commensurate jump in demand.

It states that Hockey is still not a closely followed sport in much of the US. Many US teams are struggling financially, despite being heavily subsidized by local taxpayers and Canadian fans. There are also questions about whether Canadian tax dollars are being used to subsidize unprofitable American teams through the NHL’s television contracts.

According to the paper the league clearly has no interest in having supply meet demand, but rather benefits from ensuring that supply always remains somewhat below demand. That the market did not decide that Canada should only have seven teams, or that Southern Ontario should only have one...the NHL did.

Other interesting facts; Canada has only one-fifth of NHL teams, but generates nearly one-third of the league’s revenues. During the first rounds of last year’s NHL playoffs, Canadians were 40 times as likely as Americans to have watched hockey. Quebecers were as much as 90 times as likely. Most of the approximately $100 million a year that the CBC pays for Canadian TV broadcast rights ends up in the pockets of US teams. The same goes for the rights fees paid by TSN and RDS. The Edmonton Oilers, despite playing in one of the smallest markets in the NHL, and the third-smallest arena, generate more ticket revenue than 21 out of 24 American teams. The Phoenix Coyotes earned more money in transfers from Canada than from local ticket sales.

It surmises Canada can support 12 to 15 NHL teams.

"Six of the seven Canadian teams are above the 700,000-fan threshold (and therefore made money). So did Winnipeg, with roughly 560,000 fans. In total, Canadian teams brought in $219 million in operating profits in 2011-12 — whereas the American teams made a net of just $31 million. (Outside of the highly profitable Rangers, in fact, the United States-based teams lost money that year.)"

Quote from an article from the NY Times about why Canada hasn't won a cup since 93'. but it's actually a good article on the differences between Canadian and American markets using the numbers to explain how Canada essentially supports the league.

The article
http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes...nley-cup/?_r=0
Newsflash: Vancouver, Montreal, and Toronto aren't going to allow a second team in their exclusive territories so that's a non-starter right off the bat.

Second newsflash: You're not getting your all Canadian NHL so give it up already.

Third newsflash: The anti-American drivel got old a long time ago. The NHL is an American sports league: Live with it.

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Old
07-02-2013, 11:51 AM
  #489
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Originally Posted by nwpensfan View Post
Seattle fans are reacting to the idea that it is even possible that the NHL may come to Seattle and reacting with great enthusiasm which should be understandable to all. A small minority of QC fans have made it their goal to belittle the Seattle market while claiming the NHL owes them something. Maybe QC is owed something from the NHL but bashing Seattle and its potential is not necessary.

I don't know of any Seattle booster that thinks or has posted we are owed anything from the NHL. We are responding to rumors/leaks whatever you want to call them.
Exactly. The truth is the NHL doesn't "owe" anybody anything. If Seattle gets an NHL franchise then awesome.....But I'm not going to throw a tantrum if it doesn't happen.

I've said from day one that I supported BOTH Seattle and Quebec getting teams and that I never saw this as an either/or proposition. So what do I end up seeing? Hatred spewed by a very vocal minority of Quebecois posters here on BF. The fact that one way or another Quebec will very likely get a team isn't even good enough: They have to get a team before anybody else gets one or they don't want it. If they aren't FIRST they'll take their puck and go home and throw a tantrum. Really?!?! Good God! Who CARE which city is "first" as long as both cities wind up with teams.

Hatred is really the most worthless emotion going but when certain posters are determined to wallow in it it makes it very difficult to have a civil conversation.

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07-02-2013, 11:53 AM
  #490
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Exactly. The truth is the NHL doesn't "owe" anybody anything. If Seattle gets an NHL franchise then awesome.....But I'm not going to throw a tantrum if it doesn't happen.

I've said from day one that I supported BOTH Seattle and Quebec getting teams and that I never saw this as an either/or proposition. So what do I end up seeing? Hatred spewed by a very vocal minority of Quebecois posters here on BF. The fact that one way or another Quebec will very likely get a team isn't even good enough: They have to get a team before anybody else gets one or they don't want it. If they aren't FIRST they'll take their puck and go home and throw a tantrum. Really?!?! Good God! Who CARE which city is "first" as long as both cities wind up with teams.

Hatred is really the most worthless emotion going but when certain posters are determined to wallow in it it makes it very difficult to have a civil conversation.
Neither will i. I just go back waiting like i have been for 13 years.

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07-02-2013, 11:55 AM
  #491
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I'm out here on the west coast, so I'm pulling for Seattle.
Whether it's the Coyotes or from some other city/expansion, I don't really care.
However, the alignment issue is made much simpler with a Coyotes move to the Pacific Northwest.

AS for Quebec, I wish they had never moved. The Nords/Avalanche kicked the crap out of my team for almost a decade

My wish for the hockey fans in Quebec is that they get their Nordiques back, and soon.

All that said, my only concern, based on what I've read within this thread, is the degree some fans will go to in order to take pot-shots at the city of Seattle. Enough already. Both cities would be good markets for the NHL. Not HUGE markets, but good nonetheless.

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07-02-2013, 11:56 AM
  #492
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Neither will i. I just go back waiting like i have been for 13 years.
It is what it is. I'd love to have season tickets to a Seattle NHL franchise but if it doesn't come off then I don't see any point in throwing a fit. I've got two major-junior teams in easy driving distance to get my live hockey fix and another four teams in day-trip reach.

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07-02-2013, 12:03 PM
  #493
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Newsflash: Vancouver, Montreal, and Toronto aren't going to allow a second team in their exclusive territories so that's a non-starter right off the bat.

Second newsflash: You're not getting your all Canadian NHL so give it up already.

Third newsflash: The anti-American drivel got old a long time ago. The NHL is an American sports league: Live with it.
I can see in the face of fact and information you take a tone that is ignorant and defensive, this is what lead's me to believe you aren't old enough, or maybe just informed enough to have a firm understanding of what we are talking about here. And your "Newsflashes" really aren't news, they are ill conceived assumptions based on your already loose grasp of Hockey markets.

1.I'm not Anti-American at all, I'm just a hockey fan with roots in the game and a desire to see it's homeland get more franchises, which it can support. Hell, books and papers have been written upon this topic and the fact there isn't a single thread of evidence to support not expanding north. While the evidence is irrefutable that hey have over expanded south, at to the games detriment.

2.An all Canadian NHL? I've never pondered the thought....hmm...Interesting? But wait, then I wouldn't get to see Boston and Chicago, Detroit and the Rangers, Philly and Pittsburgh, Minnisota, and all those hockey towns who fit in with us up north. Who have strong hockey fan-bases.

3. Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal won't allow another franchise in their territories? Is that right? Even IF that were true, which it isn't, you must not be aware of the geographic size of these provinces, or you wouldn't make such silly comments, I've provided you with studied information which states, in detail, why they could aswell as alternative destinations not within said territories. You refute it with a classic one-line sentence based on your opinion. You sir, are a gem.

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07-02-2013, 12:08 PM
  #494
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I can see in the face of fact and information you take a tone that is ignorant and defensive, this is what lead's me to believe you aren't old enough, or maybe just informed enough to have a firm understanding of what we are talking about here. And your "Newsflashes" really aren't news, they are ill conceived assumptions based on your already loose grasp of Hockey markets.

1.I'm not Anti-American at all, I'm just a hockey fan with roots in the game and a desire to see it's homeland get more franchises, which it can support. Hell, books and papers have been written upon this topic and the fact there isn't a single thread of evidence to support not expanding north. While the evidence is irrefutable that hey have over expanded south, at to the games detriment.

2.An all Canadian NHL? I've never pondered the thought....hmm...Interesting? But wait, then I wouldn't get to see Boston and Chicago, Detroit and the Rangers, Philly and Pittsburgh, Minnisota, and all those hockey towns who fit in with us up north. Who have strong hockey fan-bases.

3. Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal won't allow another franchise in their territories? Is that right? Even IF that were true, which it isn't, you must not be aware of the geographic size of these provinces, or you wouldn't make such silly comments, I've provided you with studied information which states, in detail, why they could aswell as alternative destinations not within said territories. You refute it with a classic one-line sentence based on your opinion. You sir, are a gem.
You see, while you have studies I have long term experience watching how major-league sports operate fortified with a good dose of common sense.....something that pinheads who do "studies" wouldn't know if it bit them in 'nads.

And btw, I'm 45......easily old enough to have an understanding of how the business of major sports leagues works. And also old enough to know how to spell "Minnesota".

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07-02-2013, 12:15 PM
  #495
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3. Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal won't allow another franchise in their territories? Is that right? Even IF that were true, which it isn't, you must not be aware of the geographic size of these provinces, or you wouldn't make such silly comments, I've provided you with studied information which states, in detail, why they could aswell as alternative destinations not within said territories. You refute it with a classic one-line sentence based on your opinion. You sir, are a gem.
Hmm. I have serious doubts about how a second team for Vancouver would work.
Sure...we have tons of hockey fans and a population base in the GVRD that could theoretically support another team...but it would always be seen as the "other" team. Perhaps it could be based in Surrey, but I just don't see it. The Canucks brand, despite the current angst, pretty much rules over all in this city. Just sayin'.

I've only visited Montreal and T.O. a few times, so I won't comment on those cities.

/sigh. I don't really get the anti-US sentiment, sometimes. I'm not pointing at you, specifically. However, nothing says "inferiority complex" more than the way some fans approach our southern cousins. I'm happy to see fans of the game, regardless of nationality.

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07-02-2013, 12:28 PM
  #496
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Even Nate Silver, who called for 3 more Canadian teams including one in each of Montreal, Quebec and Toronto, acknowledged that BC couldn't directly support a second team. That was why he said the NHL needed to expand to Seattle.

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07-02-2013, 12:36 PM
  #497
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The vast majority of US hockey fans, and Southern US hockey fans, fully support NHL teams returning to Winnipeg and Quebec (at least) and probably Hamilton and/or a second Toronto team as well. We all share some level of nostalgia for the Jets, Diques (and Whalers). Most of US hockey fans probably would probably be perfectly okay with (if not applaud) franchises like the Coyotes or Panthers packing up shop and headed up North

But what the vast majority of hockey fans don't support is THEIR TEAM being the one that moves. It doesn't matter if you're a fan of PHX, FLA or EDM, WIN, NJD or whomever, if someone suggests your team should be moved, shouldn't exist, or was a mistake in the first place (whether it's true or not), you're going to take exception to it.

Now, that's not to say your feeling and opinions aren't valid or justified. Because they ARE TOTALLY valid and justified.

But that doesn't really bring anything productive to this conversation, and those feelings are being misdirected.

Your beef is with Marcel Aubut, Barry Shenkarow and the politicians who allowed the teams to leave by not building arenas.
All the southern or US cities did to "hijack" Canadian teams is say "Sure, we'll build an arena for an NHL team! We'd love to be in the NHL!"


Sorry, that was me rambling. Your post said something absolutely brilliant: "before enough people get po'd and something stupid happens ala rival league." That's how most those cities got teams in the first place. In the US, that'd be a foolproof way of getting a team into a sports league. Start a rival league and sue for anti-trust.

What I would do, is target both NHL and AHL expansion at the same time. If the NHL grows, the AHL would have to grow too. Plot out what a 36-team NHL and AHL would look like… the Pacific Time zone teams are really interested in a West Coast branch of the AHL so their affiliates could be closer, so focus on 8-10 western markets, mostly for the AHL.

Find "owners" for the new league's franchises, but make sure they're people who would WANT to own the teams in their market AT EACH LEVEL… except one. You see, NHL/AHL with 36 teams each means 13 teams in the new league (Hamilton to the NHL means the AHL would need a seventh new team). So the new league's 14th team is Long Island,

They have an empty building. You find one ONE bold, brazen, rich guy who's not afraid to piss off the NHL (You can probably get one to answer his Blackberry!). Give HIM the Long Island Franchise and have him go nuts on publicity. He'll say he intends to offer contracts over the NHL maximum to every star in the league. Just make a huge show of it.

Then you call the NHL and say "This dude on Long Island is nuts. He really wants to destroy you. Something about the Coyotes, Penguins and Predators…" and see if the NHL will expand -- provided JB is cut out.

That kind of thing has worked before. The Continental Baseball League from 1959-62 never played a single game, and 7 of the 8 cities in the league got MLB teams.
I think you misunderstood my meaning, I'm not for forced relocation. I'm of the opinion that if a franchise reaches a point of relocation that the league starts approving buyers intending to relocate to Canada. It's not only smart business to turn a profit, but it also make's the league less a laughing stock and appeases the NHL's most important fan-base. The league should remain 30 teams or downsize, but no further expansion; the talent pool is already too diluted. And in a 30 team league Canada should be able to have additional franchises, there are buyers, but they won't approve a move north because Bettman an co. are only after TV money, and they feel keeping the largest Hockey customers starved will keep the money flowing. The Leafs do the same thing, they overcharge their fan base because they are sure of their loyalty, and it's wrong.

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07-02-2013, 01:36 PM
  #498
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Wouldn't expanding in the east defeat the purpose of the realignment? Or would people be okay with adding more teams to the Eastern Conference?

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07-02-2013, 01:40 PM
  #499
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Meanwhile, a far larger market than either Seattle or Quebec City waits.

Blame Houston's corporate sector for not cobbling together a prospective ownership group for that far larger market not being in the discussion for an NHL team.

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07-02-2013, 03:30 PM
  #500
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Originally Posted by Brodie View Post
yeah, right Bill... KeyArena's just holding dates for no reason
Probably not for no reason... probably for the same reasons as another arena a few thousand kilometers east.

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