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Have the Flyers Turned the Page on Drafting and Developing Homegrown Defensemen?

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Old
07-02-2013, 03:49 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Before Ghost it was Gustafsson who was supposed to be that PMD we have been looking for and look what's happened there. He's developed pretty much as expected (as opposed to failing like most of our dmen prospects) and we are STILL looking for that PMD guy.
Well yea. I like Gustafsson but dont know how much MORE of a 4/5 he really is. Dont get me wrong, those who dont aknowledge what he did for the Flyers last season AND was the WC Sweden's top defender are blind. Kid has done a great job. Kudos to him.

I just think Ghost has a better chance of being a better PMD defender. Overall defender also. Just my personal belief though. Really hope Gustafsson takes that next big step this up and coming season.

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07-02-2013, 04:06 PM
  #27
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Chris Pryor is going to be on Philly Sports Talk to talk about the draft for anyone who is interested.

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07-02-2013, 04:26 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Well yea. I like Gustafsson but dont know how much MORE of a 4/5 he really is. Dont get me wrong, those who dont aknowledge what he did for the Flyers last season AND was the WC Sweden's top defender are blind. Kid has done a great job. Kudos to him.

I just think Ghost has a better chance of being a better PMD defender. Overall defender also. Just my personal belief though. Really hope Gustafsson takes that next big step this up and coming season.
Oh I'm not busting on Gus or anything, I still think he'll be a solid 2nd pairing PMD. I also think he played great last year. My point was that he was our great hope before and now we are looking to Ghost as that person??? Ghost MIGHT be a 2nd pairing guy if we are lucky but there is probably just as good of a chance he never pans out.


Also, I want it known that I was all in favor of giving Gus his shot as our PMD on the 2nd pairing this year. I think it's time for him to be given that chance. I'm not upset with the Streit signing, I just wasn't terribly worried about gus filling that role. I DO still think we are in trouble as we have nobody to fill Timonens shoes after this coming season.
We as fans get all excited about prospects that show signs and then they just don't pan out and we are left always looking at "the next savior". As much **** as we've thrown at the wall (30 picks in 13 years, a full 1/3rd of our picks PLUS numerous FA signings of prospects) one or two SHOULD develop into at least something. It wasn't good scouting or good development that Gus has turned out like he has, IMO it's purely dumb luck. Hell even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.

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Old
07-02-2013, 11:17 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Oh I'm not busting on Gus or anything, I still think he'll be a solid 2nd pairing PMD. I also think he played great last year. My point was that he was our great hope before and now we are looking to Ghost as that person??? Ghost MIGHT be a 2nd pairing guy if we are lucky but there is probably just as good of a chance he never pans out.


Also, I want it known that I was all in favor of giving Gus his shot as our PMD on the 2nd pairing this year. I think it's time for him to be given that chance. I'm not upset with the Streit signing, I just wasn't terribly worried about gus filling that role. I DO still think we are in trouble as we have nobody to fill Timonens shoes after this coming season.
We as fans get all excited about prospects that show signs and then they just don't pan out and we are left always looking at "the next savior". As much **** as we've thrown at the wall (30 picks in 13 years, a full 1/3rd of our picks PLUS numerous FA signings of prospects) one or two SHOULD develop into at least something. It wasn't good scouting or good development that Gus has turned out like he has, IMO it's purely dumb luck. Hell even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.
IMO, Hagg, Morin, and Gostisbehere (if he pans out) are the saviors of our defense.
I'm excited about this team's future with the latest acquisitions and adding Vinny is gonna make watching a lot more fun too.

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07-02-2013, 11:32 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Cyborg LeClair View Post
IMO, Hagg, Morin, and Gostisbehere (if he pans out) are the saviors of our defense.
I'm excited about this team's future with the latest acquisitions and adding Vinny is gonna make watching a lot more fun too.
Unless one really really grows beyond expectations I just don't see us having a long term solution for the #1 dman spot. All of those guys would more project to be bottom 4 dmen. Maybe they become top pairing guys but right now none look like they will be. Yes they are young and a lot can chance but you kind of need to trust scouts who watch these guys on a regular basis and have a better understanding of projecting what type of players these guys will become.

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Old
07-07-2013, 08:14 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Unless one really really grows beyond expectations I just don't see us having a long term solution for the #1 dman spot. All of those guys would more project to be bottom 4 dmen. Maybe they become top pairing guys but right now none look like they will be. Yes they are young and a lot can chance but you kind of need to trust scouts who watch these guys on a regular basis and have a better understanding of projecting what type of players these guys will become.
There was a chance to pick a PMD in the first round,
one with the possiblity of becoming a #1 defenseman.
Both Pulock and Morrissey where available, but Holmer wanted Morin.
Inexcusable wasted first round pick.

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07-07-2013, 08:52 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
There was a chance to pick a PMD in the first round,
one with the possiblity of becoming a #1 defenseman.
Both Pulock and Morrissey where available, but Holmer wanted Morin.
Inexcusable wasted first round pick.
Oh yeah he left the guy who's floor is Yandle on the board.

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07-07-2013, 04:24 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
There was a chance to pick a PMD in the first round,
one with the possiblity of becoming a #1 defenseman.
Both Pulock and Morrissey where available, but Holmer wanted Morin.
Inexcusable wasted first round pick.

Everyone knows that I was more than disappointed with our draft day. Our pick at 11 wasn't awful and I don't dislike Morin but I just feel like we could have and SHOULD have done better. Maybe Morin was a "safer" pick but we didn't NEED a safe pick. We needed to take a chance of hitting a homerun and instead we played it safe. I'm sure Moring will be a fine player for us but he's not a guy who can likely be a future #1 for us. I would have rather us take a chance on one of Pulock or Morrissey or to have packaged our pick with Cousins to get Schneider. EITHER of those 2 options with our pick IMO would have been better for our long term future than using our pick on Morin.

Oh well, the past is in the past and it's behind us now. We still need a long term solution in net and a new #1 to replace Timonen but that's two roads we will have to cross in the future. I just saw us having had the chance to address one of those two issues at the draft and we didn't.

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Old
07-07-2013, 04:33 PM
  #34
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I think Morin has more upside than Pulock and Morrissey so I disagree with the sentiment that Morin can't be a top pairing defensemen.

He seems to have all the tools of a top pairing defensemen, but maybe hasn't packaged it all together quite as nicely as some of the other guys have with their skills, yet.

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Old
07-08-2013, 09:24 AM
  #35
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Meltzer: Are Flyers Finally Turning the Corner in Defense Development?

Looks like Bill has weighed in on this very topic I raised

Quote:
Much has been made of the Philadelphia Flyers' inability to draft and develop their own defenseman. Many folks, including yours truly, have criticized the organization's lack of patience in overseeing young defensemen through their learning curves and living through the inevitable growing pains that can last as long as three to five years.

The Flyers' record in drafting and developing homegrown defensemen, both historically and recently, is a tough one to defend. Even so, there rays of hope for the future and some signs that the organization has already started to take strides on the development end.

While some folks were underwhelmed with the pool of players Philadelphia chose at the 2013 NHL Draft, starting with huge but raw defenseman Samuel Morin, there is a flip side of the coin that is worth examining. The Flyers have selected eight defensemen over the last two NHL Drafts and have actually begun to build up a decent pool of potential future pros.

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Bill-...pment/45/52669

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07-08-2013, 09:47 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Everyone knows that I was more than disappointed with our draft day. Our pick at 11 wasn't awful and I don't dislike Morin but I just feel like we could have and SHOULD have done better. Maybe Morin was a "safer" pick but we didn't NEED a safe pick. We needed to take a chance of hitting a homerun and instead we played it safe.
Morin's ceiling is Chara, so there is a very small chance he might be a homerun. Just like any pick outside the top 10.

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Old
07-08-2013, 10:06 AM
  #37
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If developed right, Morin could be one one hell of a force on D in the next 5 years. That guy is going to fill out, improve aspects of his offensive game, he could be one hell of a steal potentially. Developing big guys is tough, because they usually don't pan out, but when they do, you get someone who drowns you out on D. Morin is one of those guys almost like Pronger or Chara, where you don't have guys loosely standing in front of your net, because you will pay a serious price.

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07-08-2013, 12:10 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BringBackStevens View Post
I think Morin has more upside than Pulock and Morrissey so I disagree with the sentiment that Morin can't be a top pairing defensemen.

He seems to have all the tools of a top pairing defensemen, but maybe hasn't packaged it all together quite as nicely as some of the other guys have with their skills, yet.
I just don'y know if he has the offensive side of his game to be a top guy. As BM said, his upside is a better skating Luke Schenn. But maybe after getting 7 points in 6 games in the playofffs, there is still lots of untapped offensive potential. I just hope the Flyers give him lots of time to evolve as a player. He is 3-5 years away from making the NHL so he won't be helping anytime soon. In fact, I think Hagg will be on the team first.

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07-08-2013, 04:07 PM
  #39
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I just don'y know if he has the offensive side of his game to be a top guy. As BM said, his upside is a better skating Luke Schenn. But maybe after getting 7 points in 6 games in the playofffs, there is still lots of untapped offensive potential. I just hope the Flyers give him lots of time to evolve as a player. He is 3-5 years away from making the NHL so he won't be helping anytime soon. In fact, I think Hagg will be on the team first.

That's how I see Morin. I just don't see the offensive upside in him to even speak of him in the same breath as Chara or Pronger. If he has the size and skating of Coburn and the physical play of Schenn then he's kind of more a hybrid of Coburn and schenn right??? Do we really NEED a hybrid of those two when we already have BOTH of them??? I think we need a more offensive minded PMD type guy that we could POTENTIALLY pair with one of Schenn or Coburn moreso than another stay at home physical dman.

Again, having Morin coming up in a few years isn't a bad thing. I'm sure he's going to be a fine blueliner for us but to me it's like when we just keep drafting centers. We are already deep and set at physical, defensive-minded dmen.

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Old
07-08-2013, 04:30 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
That's how I see Morin. I just don't see the offensive upside in him to even speak of him in the same breath as Chara or Pronger. If he has the size and skating of Coburn and the physical play of Schenn then he's kind of more a hybrid of Coburn and schenn right??? Do we really NEED a hybrid of those two when we already have BOTH of them??? I think we need a more offensive minded PMD type guy that we could POTENTIALLY pair with one of Schenn or Coburn moreso than another stay at home physical dman.

Again, having Morin coming up in a few years isn't a bad thing. I'm sure he's going to be a fine blueliner for us but to me it's like when we just keep drafting centers. We are already deep and set at physical, defensive-minded dmen.
Two things:

When Morin's ready, do you think our needs on D are going to be exactly the same? Lots of things change between now and then. They always do. You can't draft based on your current need.

Also, calling Morin a "better skating Schenn" just doesn't make any sense. That's fundamentally changing the player you're comparing him to. His skill set is so radically different by the mere fact that he is a good skater. That gives him a whole heap of potential that he can tap into that Schenn can not. The fact that he can skate coupled with his hockey sense (which we really have no clue about yet) lends itself to a lot of potential that neither Schenn nor Coburn have. It's possible that he has entirely different instincts that will allow him to grow into a more two-way game than either Coburn or Schenn. I don't like typecasting such a raw player as a "stay-at-home" defenseman so early simply because if he can put all his tools together, he may not be a stay-at-home defender in the future. He's just so raw, you can't really project what kind of player he will be at the NHL level.

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Old
06-30-2014, 11:55 AM
  #41
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Figured I would resurrect this thread since our latest draft has the Flyers continuing to stockpile D men with the additions of Sanheim, Pettersson and Friedman....

Also wanted to quote Meltzer's blog post

BTW...I guess Friedman will get run out of here eventually like Carle....

Quote:
* I spoke yesterday with an NHL scout from a Western Conference team to get his take on the Flyers' draft picks. He said that he primarily liked the selections of Travis Sanheim in the first round and Mark Friedman in the third.

"Philly has been stockpiling defensemen in the system, and I think that's going to pay off for them at some point," he said. "Sanheim is someone who made a lot of us take notice once he get settled in with Calgary. All the tools are there and he's got some intangibles, too. Friedman isn't a big guy but he is very confident with the puck and pretty good without the puck, too. In terms of comparison players, I do think there's some similarities to [Shayne] Gostisbehere but the NHL player I'd compare his style to is his Matt Carle. [Carle] added some size after he was drafted [by San Jose in the 2nd round of the 2003 Draft] and Friedman is a little smaller but the game is similar."

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Bill-...-Hits/45/61015


Last edited by FreshPerspective: 06-30-2014 at 12:00 PM.
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Old
06-30-2014, 12:04 PM
  #42
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Was that Morin pick still "wasted"?

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Old
06-30-2014, 12:07 PM
  #43
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Friedman is the next Ryan Suter.

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06-30-2014, 12:24 PM
  #44
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Quote:
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Found below quote interesting....and the salary cap has been around how long Paul? Haven't many of us been making this same point???

Anyway, with 4 Dmen chosen out of 6 draft picks this year and 4 Dmen out of 7 draft picks last year it looks as though Holmgren and the organization have FINALLY seen the light.

Hopefully, it results in less goal lights in the future....

Discuss...




2013

1st Round 11th Overall
MORIN, SAMUEL (D) RIMOUSKI, QMJHL

2nd Round 41st Overall
HAGG, ROBERT (D) MODO, SWE

5th Round 132 Overall
AMOROSA, TERRANCE (D) HOLDERNES, HS - N.H.

7th Round 192 Overall
DRAKE, DAVID (D) DES MOINES, USHL


2012

3rd Round - 78th Overall
SHAYNE GOSTISBEHERE (D-Union College, ECAC)

4th Round - 111th Overall
FREDRIC LARSSON (D-Brynas Jr., Sweden)

5th Round - 141st Overall
REECE WILLCOX (D-Merritt, BCHL)

7th Round - 201st Overall
VALERI VASILIEV (D-Spartak, Russian Jr.)
Considering none of them have made an NHL roster yet, I'm going to go with no. Simply drafting defensemen doesn't mean anything if they don't stick.

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06-30-2014, 12:29 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
Was that Morin pick still "wasted"?
Maybe, depends if he develops.
In fact read a report that he did not look that good last year.
Like most prospects he is a work in progress at this point.
I would rather be wrong about Morin, and have him develop into a great Dman.

Just felt they should have gone with a Dman with more offensive skills, like Morrissey or Pulock at #11 OV.
Especially since the defense has a hard time moving the puck out of defensive zone.
In addition both Streit and Timonen are older Dmen. so there is a need in near future for a young PMD.
If he only becomes Luke Schenn then I feel they could have done better at #11.

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Old
06-30-2014, 12:32 PM
  #46
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Do we know anything about Vasiliev and Larsson? How are they projecting?

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Old
06-30-2014, 12:33 PM
  #47
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Considering none of them have made an NHL roster yet, I'm going to go with no. Simply drafting defensemen doesn't mean anything if they don't stick.
They're certainly trending towards getting more serious about drafting and developing some homegrown defensemen.

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Old
06-30-2014, 12:34 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
Maybe, depends if he develops.
In fact read a report that he did not look that good last year.
Like most prospects he is a work in progress at this point.
I would rather be wrong about Morin, and have him develop into a great Dman.

Just felt they should have gone with a Dman with more offensive skills, like Morrissey or Pulock at #11 OV.
Especially since the defense has a hard time moving the puck out of defensive zone.
In addition both Streit and Timonen are older Dmen. so there is a need in near future for a young PMD.
If he only becomes Luke Schenn then I feel they could have done better at #11.
Well you read wrong, he had a very good year. He was his teams top defensemen playing in all situations on one of the best teams in the Q & the entire CHL.

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Old
06-30-2014, 12:35 PM
  #49
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Yeah, I'd like to see this supposed report. Everything we've seen has indicated his development is coming along fine.

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06-30-2014, 12:38 PM
  #50
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Do we know anything about Vasiliev and Larsson? How are they projecting?
They lost the rights to Larsson. He wasn't developing well though, so it's not that big a deal. I'm pretty cure he didn't even have an NCAA commitment when the Flyers lost his rights.

Vasiliev is still playing in the KHL, and he appears to be over some of the injury problems that he had early on in his career. I was impressed by his showing at the last WJC for Russia. He's a pretty good skater but more of a defensive defensman.

Willcox is still a pretty good prospect from 2012. From what I've read, he's put in a very good first two years at Cornell.

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