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Mact's performance thus far.

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Old
07-02-2013, 06:01 PM
  #226
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Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth View Post
I don't put much stock in anything Brownlee says, to be honest...and for him to say something like that only reinforces that line of thinking for me.

Bucky is friends with Katz...all right, maybe he is...not earth shattering news. Do we know whether they're 'friend of a friend' type acquaintances, or BFF's? Does Brownlee? Does being a friend of a friend mean that Katz must have saved Bucky's job when MacT, Lowe, and Eakins all wanted him gone? I highly doubt Brownlee knows that for a fact- which makes his comments pretty unprofessional for a "reporter".

Anyway...I was most curious as to who encompassed "by all accounts". If Brownlee is it, I think we can throw that out the window.

You do know that it was Brownlee, who called the Acton hire and the retaining of Smith and Buchberger, three weeks BEFORE it was announced, right?
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As Robin Brownlee accurately predicted on June 09th, Keith Acton is the new associate head coach.
(Jason Gregor)

http://oilersnation.com/2013/6/9/kei...cting-the-dots

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While I can't imagine Acton signed on with Columbus for just one year, I also can't imagine he wouldn't have an out-clause in his contract allowing him to move to another organization for a promotion. I'd think moving from assistant coach to associate coach would qualify.

Stay tuned. We'll know soon enough.

ONE LAST THING . . .

My expectation is incumbent assistant coaches Steve Smith and Kelly Buchberger will be retained.
Throw it out the window?

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07-02-2013, 06:08 PM
  #227
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Ftr i'm just saying the same thing as Halibut, that one prime opportunity has passed. I'm not judging the work prematurely.

That said, in ongoing dealings for Cobourn or anyone else I'll raise again that picks do, and should offer more incentive to other clubs BEFORE the draft. After a club has used their picks on their own preferential picks the value incumbent in these is of course null. The value of yet more prospects in an org loaded with prospects should also be considered nebulous. This being a commodity in excess that should have been moved.

MacT had a huge opportunity to leverage picks (which we don't need at all at this stage) to live bodies (which we do need.) This opportunity is passed. Its a one time opportunity thats not coming back.

We had a chance to use non players (picks) in barter to improve our present lineup. Now we will have to incur present player cost to obtain present player benefit. In otherwords NHL bodies for NHL bodies. The chance that we become substantially better through this course of action is arguably less in that you are giving up players in order to *add* to the lineup.

What I'm saying is an obvious point that everybody probably realizes but in lieu of discussion I think needs to be raised more often. Now we are only in net benefit territory, barring any free agent signings, raids, but I think we have a risk there as well with potentially losing Gagner.

hope this is clear
Have you ever heard of the 2014 draft? I think we have some picks that we could trade from that draft too.

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07-02-2013, 06:12 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Ftr i'm just saying the same thing as Halibut, that one prime opportunity has passed. I'm not judging
the work prematurely.
No, I know. I'm more just curious what you have to say, as often we see things from quite different perspectives, Replacement. That's what makes this board enjoyable imo.

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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
That said, in ongoing dealings for Cobourn or anyone else I'll raise again that picks do, and should offer more incentive to other clubs BEFORE the draft. After a club has used their picks on their own preferential picks the value incumbent in these is of course null. The value of yet more prospects in an org loaded with prospects should also be considered nebulous. This being a commodity in excess that should have been moved.

MacT had a huge opportunity to leverage picks (which we don't need at all at this stage) to live bodies (which we do need.) This opportunity is passed. Its a one time opportunity thats not coming back.

We had a chance to use non players (picks) in barter to improve our present lineup. Now we will have to incur present player cost to obtain present player benefit. In otherwords NHL bodies for NHL bodies. The chance that we become substantially better through this course of action is arguably less in that you are giving up players in order to *add* to the lineup.

What I'm saying is an obvious point that everybody probably realizes but in lieu of discussion I think needs to be raised more often. Now we are only in net benefit territory, barring any free agent signings, raids, but I think we have a risk there as well with potentially losing Gagner.

hope this is clear
Are picks worth more than prospects? It depends to a large degree in how the prospects turn out, I suppose. Picks have most worth on draft day but have less diminished value at other times, such as at trade deadline. I personally think that we do need more prospects developing in the system to become a team with more depth like Detroit. We've been such a talent-starved NHL team for so long that any prospect with talent is immediately playing in our NHL line up. Before the draft we were also significantly lacking a young crop of forward prospects as far as I can tell, despite having a significant number of young blueliners coming through the system though. MacT and the scouts have addressed some of that need.

I was glad that MacT re-stocked the cupboard with young forwards. Maybe a young guy like Pitlick has more value than we think to other teams. It becomes easier to move prospects for veteran players, if we have other prospects coming through the system, who may look as, or more, promising.

The cap crunch changes the whole landscape a fair bit. With the cap strapped teams, I think that prospects have more value than ever before. The majority of teams trying to shed salary are--I would think--more tempted to take inexpensive, young prospects in return for more expensive veterans. Most teams are building for the present or fairly immediate future, so a prospect with some demonstrated talent probably has more value than a pick.

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07-02-2013, 06:13 PM
  #229
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Why did MacT not come out and publically show interest in acquiring Lecavalier..
All he needed was to come on camera and say we are really in need of a top 6 big C who can guide the young stars and be part of a winner..

Why are DAL, CGY and PHI possible destinations but not us...

had a good chance to be bold and agressive..

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07-02-2013, 06:21 PM
  #230
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Originally Posted by Petro Points View Post
Why did MacT not come out and publically show interest in acquiring Lecavalier..
All he needed was to come on camera and say we are really in need of a top 6 big C who can guide the young stars and be part of a winner..

Why are DAL, CGY and PHI possible destinations but not us...

had a good chance to be bold and agressive..
Maybe lecavalier doesnt want to come here?

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07-02-2013, 06:24 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by Petro Points View Post
Why did MacT not come out and publically show interest in acquiring Lecavalier..
All he needed was to come on camera and say we are really in need of a top 6 big C who can guide the young stars and be part of a winner..

Why are DAL, CGY and PHI possible destinations but not us...

had a good chance to be bold and agressive..
Why does he have to publicly show interest? Do you think the Oilers are going to have room for him under the cap going forward? Do you think he wants a 2-3 year deal? or a 5 or 6 year deal? Is he a long term piece or a short term fix?

I don't see it as a good fit for the Oilers. Or for Lecavalier.

Maybe he inquired and was told that Lecavalier was not interested.

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07-02-2013, 06:26 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by Aequitas View Post
Maybe lecavalier doesnt want to come here?
maybe if MacT used the media a little Lecavalier might have considered us... Why consider EDM if you dont think you would fit in with that group.. As an outsider EDM is a team that is on youth movement... filtering out the old and letting the youn guns take over the team...

Leak your interest to a guy like Bobby Mack or dregger ... and let the media do the talking for you...

If the guy can meet with Flames im sure EDM couldve had a chance as well..

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07-02-2013, 06:27 PM
  #233
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From what I heard Viny doesn't like the spot light and wants to stay on the east coast.

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07-02-2013, 06:28 PM
  #234
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Originally Posted by Oil Gauge View Post
Why does he have to publicly show interest? Do you think the Oilers are going to have room for him under the cap going forward? Do you think he wants a 2-3 year deal? or a 5 or 6 year deal? Is he a long term piece or a short term fix?

I don't see it as a good fit for the Oilers. Or for Lecavalier.

Maybe he inquired and was told that Lecavalier was not interested.
We are about to pay Gagner 5M x long term... I would rather see that money go to Lecavalier and wouldnt mind a player like that here for the next 4 yrs..

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07-02-2013, 06:30 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by AM View Post
From what I heard Viny doesn't like the spot light and wants to stay on the east coast.
Isnt he considering MTL? arent they the front runners at this time?
There wouldnt be much in terms of spot light with the 5 talented kids we got.
O well... just my rant for the day

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07-02-2013, 06:30 PM
  #236
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From what I heard Viny doesn't like the spot light and wants to stay on the east coast.
Yeah, I heard that as well.

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07-02-2013, 06:31 PM
  #237
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Originally Posted by Petro Points View Post
We are about to pay Gagner 5M x long term... I would rather see that money go to Lecavalier and wouldnt mind a player like that here for the next 4 yrs..
I would rather take a run at Couturier or Brayden Schenn. If the Flyers do indeed open the vault for Lecavalier, one of those two will have to go. Both of them are rfa after this season along with Claude Giroux.

Flyers arent going to be able to keep all three, especially if they sign Vinny.

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07-02-2013, 06:44 PM
  #238
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
I would rather take a run at Couturier or Brayden Schenn. If the Flyers do indeed open the vault for Lecavalier, one of those two will have to go. Both of them are rfa after this season along with Claude Giroux.

Flyers arent going to be able to keep all three, especially if they sign Vinny.
So rather give up a combo of Petry\Klefbom\2014 1st for Couts\Schenn than go hard after UFA Vinny?

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07-02-2013, 06:46 PM
  #239
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I consider Vinny a disappointment and wouldn't want him on our team

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07-02-2013, 06:47 PM
  #240
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So rather give up a combo of Petry\Klefbom\2014 1st for Couts\Schenn than go hard after UFA Vinny?
Hard to say what Philly would want but yes, absolutely. You are assuming Vinny would even consider coming here which is unlikely.

How about Nurse for Couturier? Or Klefbom for Couturier? Or 2014 1st for Couturier?

I would probably do any of the above.

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07-02-2013, 06:47 PM
  #241
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I consider Vinny a disappointment and wouldn't want him on our team
Well you're in luck!

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07-02-2013, 06:51 PM
  #242
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Originally Posted by Petro Points View Post
We are about to pay Gagner 5M x long term... I would rather see that money go to Lecavalier and wouldnt mind a player like that here for the next 4 yrs..
Lecavalier is a 60 point guy now and not getting any younger. That's about what Gagner was on pace for this past season. Lecavlier is tougher and more physical, but I'd still rather be watching a 27-year-old Gagner than a 37-year-old Lecavalier. The tail end of a four year term with Lecavalier might be painful. He's been on a fairly steady decline since his 108 point season.

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07-02-2013, 07:08 PM
  #243
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Hard to say what Philly would want but yes, absolutely. You are assuming Vinny would even consider coming here which is unlikely.

How about Nurse for Couturier? Or Klefbom for Couturier? Or 2014 1st for Couturier?

I would probably do any of the above
.
Damm tempting.

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07-02-2013, 07:17 PM
  #244
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Have you ever heard of the 2014 draft? I think we have some picks that we could trade from that draft too.
Have you heard of the upcoming 2013-14 season?

See how that works.

The club needs help in the lineup For next season.

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07-02-2013, 07:20 PM
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Have you heard of the upcoming 2013-14 season?

See how that works.

The club needs help in the lineup For next season.
Come on replacement... UFA season hasn't even started yet.

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07-02-2013, 07:24 PM
  #246
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Come on replacement... UFA season hasn't even started yet.
You know what. I took the time to express clearly what I stated and that one commodity, picks, would have optimal trade value at the draft or before. Once you use those picks that value is depreciated. Other teams want your picks, the sheer value of that to do what they will, they have typically less interest in who you have picked. i.e. teams prefer to draft who they want to draft.

This opportunity has passed. One commodity in trade that we have an abundance of has now passed the point of optimal valuation.

Sure we have other options to improve the club. But I also explained the relative cost of doing that in my post.

Not sure how much more clear I can make this.

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07-02-2013, 07:26 PM
  #247
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You know what. I took the time to express clearly what I stated and that one commodity, picks, would have optimal trade value at the draft or before. Once you use those picks that value is depreciated. Other teams want your picks, the sheer value of that to do what they will, they have typically less interest in who you have picked. i.e. teams prefer to draft who they want to draft.

This opportunity has passed. Not sure how much more clear I can make this.
I'm not saying you're not right, but I imagine MacT offered both second rounders for Coburn and the Flyers still weren't biting.

And offering our first in this draft would have been silly. The Devils traded theirs for... Schnieder? That's an awfully big gamble. If only the Canucks were a little smarter with drafting.

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07-02-2013, 07:38 PM
  #248
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No, I know. I'm more just curious what you have to say, as often we see things from quite different perspectives, Replacement. That's what makes this board enjoyable imo.
For sure. Agree or disagree always a pleasure to interact with posters actually willing to have a discussion.

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Are picks worth more than prospects? It depends to a large degree in how the prospects turn out, I suppose.
Unequivocally I would state the picks are worth more than the players selected at point of draft. This would hold in most any marketable comparison. Soon as you walk out of the showroom with keys in hand value is diminished. Soon as you buy the house to spec value is diminished. Really in the case of all commodities I can think direct currency, i.e. picks would be preferred over commodity barter (players selected). Aside from appreciation that would occur in such picks which takes considerable time and circumstance to realize.

I would say pick value diminishes even more past the first picks where teams tend to deviate much more in terms of what they want. Somebody might like a Suburu but maybe not the model/color, you selected.

Just using analogy as illustration, not comparison.

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Picks have most worth on draft day but have less diminished value at other times, such as at trade deadline. I personally think that we do need more prospects developing in the system to become a team with more depth like Detroit. We've been such a talent-starved NHL team for so long that any prospect with talent is immediately playing in our NHL line up. Before the draft we were also significantly lacking a young crop of forward prospects as far as I can tell, despite having a significant number of young blueliners coming through the system though. MacT and the scouts have addressed some of that need.
I disagree and feel we need players, particularly worthwhile bottomsix players prepared/accustomed to playing a system but who can add some offence.

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I was glad that MacT re-stocked the cupboard with young forwards. Maybe a young guy like Pitlick has more value than we think to other teams. It becomes easier to move prospects for veteran players, if we have other prospects coming through the system, who may look as, or more, promising.
Not necessarily. Prospects have more value to clubs that are nickle and diming a low cap club and trying to get the most bang for their buck by auditioning their prospects on the parent club and thus featuring them. The trouble here is that our prospects will see little action in the show in featured roles and are often used outside of the role they would have in say the AHL. For instance plugging an offensive player for a few games in the show as a bottomsix player. This is not going to sell the player to other clubs. The Oilers are at a stage where we are filled to the brim with inexperienced players and will almost surely need to supplement with helpful veterans, not more prospects. So a guy like Pitlick sees little if any action with the Oilers.
We won't have a pipeline of players coming through the system. More than likely only the very top prospects see much action here going forward as we try to be competitive.

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The cap crunch changes the whole landscape a fair bit. With the cap strapped teams, I think that prospects have more value than ever before. The majority of teams trying to shed salary are--I would think--more tempted to take inexpensive, young prospects in return for more expensive veterans. Most teams are building for the present or fairly immediate future, so a prospect with some demonstrated talent probably has more value than a pick.
Again this value would be realized if the Oilers were a parent club likely to showcase their middling prospects. This is not likely to be the case going forward. If it is the case we're going to continue to be a bad club.

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07-02-2013, 07:43 PM
  #249
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I'm not saying you're not right, but I imagine MacT offered both second rounders for Coburn and the Flyers still weren't biting.

And offering our first in this draft would have been silly. The Devils traded theirs for... Schnieder? That's an awfully big gamble. If only the Canucks were a little smarter with drafting.
This is no reflection on Nurse, or whoever we would have picked with our first. I don't think its silly at all to have that pick on the table. I would sure hope it was on the table, it absolutely should be.

We are in a position of needing help in the lineup now, not later, live bodies now. If you can obtain a live body without giving up too much of your present useful lineup all the better.

Going forward, as I've stated, its now more likely that we need to leverage useful players to try to obtain useful players. Its harder to realize net benefit improvement in the lineup through doing this. Its more likely now that improvements, through trade anyway, will realize only marginal, if any benefit. Theres a good chance of more lateral moves taking place now.

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07-02-2013, 07:52 PM
  #250
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This is no reflection on Nurse, or whoever we would have picked with our first. I don't think its silly at all to have that pick on the table. I would sure hope it was on the table, it absolutely should be.

We are in a position of needing help in the lineup now, not later, live bodies now. If you can obtain a live body without giving up too much of your present useful lineup all the better.

Going forward, as I've stated, its now more likely that we need to leverage useful players to try to obtain useful players. Its harder to realize net benefit improvement in the lineup through doing this. Its more likely now that improvements, through trade anyway, will realize only marginal, if any benefit. Theres a good chance of more lateral moves taking place now.
My worry was some of the ridiculous asking prices around the league. The package for Schnieder was atrocious. Who knows what the Flyers wanted. The early asking price for Bolland was downright stupid. Yes MacT should've offered what Toronto did, although as we've already seen with Vancouver, the asking price depends on the team you're trading him to.

I agree the first pick should have been in play, but NJ aside, not a single first was dealt at the draft for immediate help. The Sharks and Wings swapped picks but I hardly believe that counts. And it's not as if the Devils don't already have a goalie in Marty. I don't see Schnieder supplanting Brodeur if he can't even outlast Luongo.

The fact of the matter is we just don't know what could have been. I liked the idea of offering a second to Minnesota for Clutterbuck, but after seeing the price the Isles paid to get him, I'm glad MacT backed off.

All these trades at the draft were nothing but auctions. You had to pay a steep price for a slight upgrade. And that's not even counting if the GM just plain doesn't want to deal with you.

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