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Old
07-02-2013, 03:52 PM
  #326
slipknottin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
That's not what he's saying at all. Re-read, re-reply.
Lucic takes penalties from being aggressive, that's what makes him a good player. That is EXACTLY what he said

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07-02-2013, 03:52 PM
  #327
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Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
Yes, that is what I said. Their job is to be effective in their roles. Crossing the line happens.
And you have to accept so much of it. Those guys are ineffective if on a tight leash.

Frankly, teams do not mind the rough penalties nearly as much as the lazy (hooking) ones. Players are inherently more willing to kill them off and try and bail out a play that they felt was warranted.

It's not shown on the stat sheet, but any player would admit to such.

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07-02-2013, 03:53 PM
  #328
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I remember Mike Rupp, the master of being aggressive and taking minor penalties. Warrior.

Those are the types of 4th liners that are detrimental to the team.

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Old
07-02-2013, 03:53 PM
  #329
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slipknottin View Post
Lucic takes penalties from being aggressive, that's what makes him a good player. That is EXACTLY what he said
He's not saying the players are good because of the penalties. He's saying the penalties come with the package and you have to accept them. Big difference.

The only time penalties are ever good is if you're running a fantasy team. But there are some more acceptable penalties in the scheme of things.

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07-02-2013, 03:56 PM
  #330
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Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
He's not saying the players are good because of the penalties. He's saying the penalties come with the package and you have to accept them. Big difference.

The only time penalties are ever good is if you're running a fantasy team. But there are some more acceptable penalties in the scheme of things.
And tripping, slashing, and an interference penalty are not good penalties. Matching penalties, a fighting major, something that actually agitates the other team is ok in a rare instance, but he took three crappy penalties in a series where the rangers were being obliterated on the PP. he HAS to be smarter than that if he wants to play

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07-02-2013, 03:57 PM
  #331
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Oy vey some of you people would find ways to complain about prime Gretzky

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07-02-2013, 03:57 PM
  #332
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
He's not saying the players are good because of the penalties. He's saying the penalties come with the package and you have to accept them. Big difference.

The only time penalties are ever good is if you're running a fantasy team. But there are some more acceptable penalties in the scheme of things.
Exactly this. It's the style of play that leads to more penalties. It's par for the course, unless you want a full team of Pyatt's who are just, there. But hey, he only had ~12 PIM's this season! Winner!

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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
I remember Mike Rupp, the master of being aggressive and taking minor penalties. Warrior.

Those are the types of 4th liners that are detrimental to the team.
Yes, Mike Rupp = Derek Dorsett.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
And you have to accept so much of it. Those guys are ineffective if on a tight leash.

Frankly, teams do not mind the rough penalties nearly as much as the lazy (hooking) ones. Players are inherently more willing to kill them off and try and bail out a play that they felt was warranted.

It's not shown on the stat sheet, but any player would admit to such.
This. Aggressiveness is a good thing. It means players are willing to do whatever to win and they are super competitive.

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Originally Posted by slipknottin View Post
Lucic takes penalties from being aggressive, that's what makes him a good player. That is EXACTLY what he said
Lucic is a good player who takes penalties from being aggressive. Part of the reason he is so good, is because he has that "aura" of aggressiveness follow him. Teams take note. This leads to turnovers and chances for his team.

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07-02-2013, 03:59 PM
  #333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slipknottin View Post
And tripping, slashing, and an interference penalty are not good penalties. Matching penalties, a fighting major, something that actually agitates the other team is ok in a rare instance, but he took three crappy penalties in a series where the rangers were being obliterated on the PP. he HAS to be smarter than that if he wants to play
Why are you cherrypicking three penalties from one single series?

"Yay, let's cherry pick a few bad penalties to further my lack of a point!"

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07-02-2013, 04:00 PM
  #334
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Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
Why are you cherrypicking three penalties from one single series?

"Yay, let's cherry pick a few bad penalties to further my lack of a point!"
He only played in three series this season.

I don't care at all about what he did for Columbus.

My point was always that he can't take crappy lazy penalties and expect to play.

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07-02-2013, 04:00 PM
  #335
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
a full team of Pyatt's


Quote:
Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
Yes, Mike Rupp = Derek Dorsett.
Look, man. If he can't read it as a stat it doesn't exist.

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07-02-2013, 04:02 PM
  #336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slipknottin View Post
He only played in three series this season.

My point was always that he can't take crappy lazy penalties and expect to play.
. . . which has everything to do with you cherrypicking and not analyzing a full body of work.

If he comes out next season and takes a hooking penalty every game, then we can talk. Until then, don't sit there and cherrypick your stats. Leave that to others.

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07-02-2013, 04:02 PM
  #337
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Dorsett was one of the few guys who actually played with energy in the playoffs. If penalties come with his game, then ok. Just make sure our PKers can actually kill penalties.

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Old
07-02-2013, 04:04 PM
  #338
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
. . . which has everything to do with you cherrypicking and not analyzing a full body of work.

If he comes out next season and takes a hooking penalty every game, then we can talk. Until then, don't sit there and cherrypick your stats. Leave that to others.
I think some people are unsure of what a "bad" penalty is. Obstruction penalties are bad. Getting called for one of boarding, charging, roughing, etc every game means they're playing on the edge, something this team needs.

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Old
07-02-2013, 04:05 PM
  #339
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NashtyAttack View Post
I think some people are unsure of what a "bad" penalty is. Obstruction penalties are bad. Getting called for one of boarding, charging, roughing, etc every game means they're playing on the edge, something this team needs.
Well, boarding would be Hollweg-esque.

I don't mind something like that ONCE in a while, though.

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07-02-2013, 04:05 PM
  #340
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Well, boarding would be Hollweg-esque.

I don't mind something like that ONCE in a while, though.
Ok maybe not every game, but you get my point

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Old
07-02-2013, 04:07 PM
  #341
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Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
. . . which has everything to do with you cherrypicking and not analyzing a full body of work.

If he comes out next season and takes a hooking penalty every game, then we can talk. Until then, don't sit there and cherrypick your stats. Leave that to others.

It's not cherry picking if that is the entirety of the data available. He took three bad penalties in 18 games for the rangers, that's pretty significant.

And none of them were the gain momentum type. They were lazy plays when he got caught out of position

That we are making excuses for a 4th line player to be taking tripping and interference penalties blows my mind.

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07-02-2013, 04:28 PM
  #342
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Originally Posted by JohnC View Post
Oy vey some of you people would find ways to complain about prime Gretzky
Wouldn't fight if someone ran Lundqvist. That was easy, got any more brain busters for me?

On a serious note, Shaw took several dumb penalties in the finals. But if we really want to talk about dumb penalties we should talk about Johnny Oduya.

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Old
07-02-2013, 04:30 PM
  #343
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Originally Posted by Barbara Underhill View Post
Wouldn't fight if someone ran Lundqvist. That was easy, got any more brain busters for me?

On a serious note, Shaw took several dumb penalties in the finals. But if we really want to talk about dumb penalties we should talk about Johnny Oduya.
Yea. That's really what this argument should be saying. Guys like Lucic are much more effective when they AREN'T taking stupid penalties and are playing the game. Shaw is the same way, let him by physical, let him talk, but taking a tripping or hooking penalty or whatever else is in no way a positive play for his team.

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07-02-2013, 04:31 PM
  #344
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Wouldn't fight if someone ran Lundqvist. That was easy, got any more brain busters for me?
I'm gonna try to compile a list of tricky ones and get back to you. This is not over!!!

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Old
07-02-2013, 04:38 PM
  #345
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slipknottin View Post
Yea. That's really what this argument should be saying. Guys like Lucic are much more effective when they AREN'T taking stupid penalties and are playing the game. Shaw is the same way, let him by physical, let him talk, but taking a tripping or hooking penalty or whatever else is in no way a positive play for his team.
Pretty much, but if they take one let them get right back out there. Shaw after taking a penalty, usually went right back out and contributed in a positive way. I have much less issue with those guys actually taking penalties because it's their game as opposed to let's say Toews taking all those penalties against Detroit.

I think part of Dorsett's issues were being on the shelf so long and struggling to keep pace, and a lack of discipline. Needs to work on that, I was very happy with him most games, but in one game he got to me with his stupidity. Not going to write him off though because I like his game otherwise and it shouldn't be too hard for AV to reel him in a little.

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Old
07-02-2013, 04:49 PM
  #346
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Originally Posted by Barbara Underhill View Post
Pretty much, but if they take one let them get right back out there. Shaw after taking a penalty, usually went right back out and contributed in a positive way. I have much less issue with those guys actually taking penalties because it's their game as opposed to let's say Toews taking all those penalties against Detroit.

I think part of Dorsett's issues were being on the shelf so long and struggling to keep pace, and a lack of discipline. Needs to work on that, I was very happy with him most games, but in one game he got to me with his stupidity. Not going to write him off though because I like his game otherwise and it shouldn't be too hard for AV to reel him in a little.
I agree with this completely. And I'm not anti-Dorsett. Just to me he has a lot to prove. I'm not up for giving him significant minutes a game until he starts showing better. But I do realize he missed the entire season and coming fresh into the playoffs isn't easy

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Old
07-02-2013, 05:03 PM
  #347
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slipknottin View Post
It's not cherry picking if that is the entirety of the data available. He took three bad penalties in 18 games for the rangers, that's pretty significant.

And none of them were the gain momentum type. They were lazy plays when he got caught out of position

That we are making excuses for a 4th line player to be taking tripping and interference penalties blows my mind.
No, there is plenty of data available from other seasons. That's my point. Can't judge a guy based on a handful of games with a new team when he is just off of injury.

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Old
07-02-2013, 05:09 PM
  #348
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No, there is plenty of data available from other seasons. That's my point. Can't judge a guy based on a handful of games with a new team when he is just off of injury.
You let me know how he did in the playoffs with Columbus then

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07-02-2013, 05:35 PM
  #349
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Apparently Dreger reported that the Flyers got Lecavalier. That's just what they need. Another scoring forward who can't defend. I'm happy.

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07-02-2013, 05:36 PM
  #350
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Originally Posted by slipknottin View Post
You let me know how he did in the playoffs with Columbus then
What does it matter where he takes penalties? I fail to see why that matters. His penalties are not going to jump exponentially or be worse.

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