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Old
07-03-2013, 01:25 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SportsballChic View Post
The cost would be astronomically high. Even if *I* agreed with you, and I'm not sure I do: no way Kenny even considers it imo.

Though I will concede all that business with Weber caught me by suprise so maybe I'm not giving the old man enough credit. Still, our offer would have to be poison for St Louis; I can't see us doing that.
Totally off topic, but can I ask you a question? Do you just sit down & post all day long? Lol

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07-03-2013, 01:26 PM
  #27
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Totally off topic, but can I ask you a question? Do you just sit down & post all day long? Lol
When I'm at "work"; yes, sometimes.

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07-03-2013, 01:43 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by alConn View Post
Yea, and that worked out great for Nashville. They should have made Philly eat it.
It's going to work out better for them than not matching it would have.

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07-03-2013, 01:55 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by redwingsnow View Post
because pietrangelo is the only young defenseman in the league who looks like lidstrom.
Ekman-Larsson.

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Old
07-03-2013, 02:23 PM
  #30
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It's going to work out better for them than not matching it would have.
Agree; for a guy like Weber you just gotta break the bank.

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07-03-2013, 02:27 PM
  #31
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Should've offer sheeted Subban last year like I demand numerous times. But what do I know?

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07-03-2013, 03:08 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SportsballChic View Post
The cost would be astronomically high. Even if *I* agreed with you, and I'm not sure I do: no way Kenny even considers it imo.

Though I will concede all that business with Weber caught me by suprise so maybe I'm not giving the old man enough credit. Still, our offer would have to be poison for St Louis; I can't see us doing that.
I ain't saying he should or shouldn't.
But I am against the reasons why Jimmy D says teams don't do it.

It's in the CBA for a reason. It's a tool. And a GM who continues to watch his team get worse might consider using every tool at his disposal.

What if we offered him 7 years $63 million.
Is he worth that? Right now? No.

In five years? Probably for sure.

What does that cost us in draft picks?

How many first round picks is a young franchise defenseman worth?

would you trade Mantha, Quincey, Sheahan and McCollum for Pietrangelo?

I would.

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07-03-2013, 03:17 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
What if we offered him 7 years $63 million.
Is he worth that? Right now? No.

In five years? Probably for sure.

What does that cost us in draft picks?

How many first round picks is a young franchise defenseman worth?

would you trade Mantha, Quincey, Sheahan and McCollum for Pietrangelo?

I would.
Would I make that deal? Yeap. In a snap. The problem is they're also a business. Those 4 first rounders come cheap; the key to winning is to roll the dice and get pieces cheap to surround your "core"

Most of the best teams are spending more than half their cap on their 5 best guys (I believe, this was definitely true in 2010 but I haven't checked the numbers since).

I'm not sure if it was you, but a lot of people talk about Chicago's re-tooling on the fly system and basically the whole reason it works is because they only pay for the core and let everyone else go by/be replaced.

Now, do I happen to agree with you that Pietrangelo is worth it? Yes. But that's how you lose, pick the wrong guy and pay him core money. I think (for better or for worse) the Wings are trying to roll as many dice as possible because those prospects are cheap.

This is all completely independent of whether or not I agree; I don't. I think we should be trying to maximize this window, right now because we're closer than we thought we were. (Yes I'm aware you disagree, it's cool, I know).

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Old
07-03-2013, 03:34 PM
  #34
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You'd give up Quincey? Bold.

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07-03-2013, 03:37 PM
  #35
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Yeah, I'd have no issue with them giving a huge offer sheet to Pietrangelo

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07-03-2013, 03:56 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
Ken Holland doesn't do offer sheets.

Well he doesnt do anything, but he definitely doesn't do offer sheets.
Simply this^

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Old
07-03-2013, 03:58 PM
  #37
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Still talking about d-men? WTF. We have some excellent young d-men and some fantastic young prospects. WE NEED GOAL SCORERS. SCORE GOALS.

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07-03-2013, 04:09 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Vladdy84 View Post
Still talking about d-men? WTF. We have some excellent young d-men and some fantastic young prospects. WE NEED GOAL SCORERS. SCORE GOALS.
I actually like Kronwall and Ericsson quite a bit, but that's not an ideal #1 pairing.

But only a handful of teams actually have an idea #1 pairing, so it's a pretty tricky position to fill which is why people are suggesting we give up four 1st round picks.

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07-03-2013, 04:12 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
Ken Holland doesn't do offer sheets.

Well he doesnt do anything, but he definitely doesn't do offer sheets.
Would you like some specific players to receive os or if you are against that manoeuvre? Are you proposing sticking to an unwritten rule or if it's fair game?

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07-03-2013, 04:43 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladdy84 View Post
Still talking about d-men? WTF. We have some excellent young d-men and some fantastic young prospects. WE NEED GOAL SCORERS. SCORE GOALS.
We might score more goals if our D could consistently move the puck up and out, and force the play from the back end. For all of the talk about Smith's skills, and Kindl's ability to walk the line, neither are established at it.

That said, I think the idea of offersheeting a D is fool's gold. It looks good, but it's not going to come to anything.

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Old
07-03-2013, 05:09 PM
  #41
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Personally while passing on this market would love for the Wings to back-channel Giroux's agent and tell him they are offering him 8.75 million next summer. Would get a kick out of someone cracking the Flyers like that.

None of the big guys are ever going to go unmatched. Think about it the best guys to leave are Niemi and Penner in this process. You could offer Petro the moon and St. Louis will just grit their teeth and match. It is bad business and all it does is open you up to more of the same.

Part of why I really wish someone will crack the Flyers and Holmgren across the knuckles for it.

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07-03-2013, 05:19 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by The Zetterberg Era View Post
. It is bad business and all it does is open you up to more of the same.
This is the logic that I am against.

It's within the rules.

Why should people act as if this is dirty pool?

the players and the union NEGOTiATED this a a LEGITIMATE mechanism to give young players some reasonable market for their services.

This isn't even against the "spirit" of the rules, like Holland's cap circumvention.

When weighing the pros and cons, the only things that should matter are hockey factors -- salaries, rosters, draft picks, etc

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07-03-2013, 05:26 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
This is the logic that I am against.

It's within the rules.

Why should people act as if this is dirty pool?
The GM community is a small one. You'd have to ask them, because there's obviously a stigma.

Burke called Edmonton's offer sheet "gutless" and claimed, ""Edmonton has offered a mostly inflated salary for a player, and I think it's an act of desperation for a general manager who is fighting to keep his job."

He's callously outspoken, but I doubt he was the only one who didn't like it.

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07-03-2013, 05:27 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
This is the logic that I am against.

It's within the rules.

Why should people act as if this is dirty pool?

the players and the union NEGOTiATED this a a LEGITIMATE mechanism to give young players some reasonable market for their services.

This isn't even against the "spirit" of the rules, like Holland's cap circumvention.

When weighing the pros and cons, the only things that should matter are hockey factors -- salaries, rosters, draft picks, etc
It is within the rules, they certainly have attached a far more damaging package in terms of what you give up to do it in the NHL versus say the NBA. How many players are truly worth four 1st round picks? Seriously not as many as you would think even if you're low on the draft or reasonable depending on how you see it.

One of the reasons I find both Giroux or Petro an interesting case, because I would probably be willing to do it. I just think by in large they are matched and you have likely upset the people involved. It isn't dirty pool, because it is legal, but many would see it as being a jerk way of doing business.

If we agree with the cost go for it, but know that it might come back on you and you're unlikely to get the player anyway. Certainly if someone did this to one of our guys, I would love to see the reaction in the future. Ilitch and Holland seem like the kind of guys that would target in response.

Interestingly it looks like Petro wants an offer sheet by some reports so he can get his best offer. Curious how many players start hoping for that, especially if they are convinced they will match who cares where you get it. Vanek certainly made a killing with this logic, Fedorov got all of his little hearts desires rigging a contract through this process, and Weber is getting paid out big time. I am curious why more players don't really try to use this, they just need to get a couple GMs to bite. I don't expect ours to lead the group though, he and Burke are probably the most vocal in terms of against this, although the Wings did study doing it for Weber.

I think you should be very careful who you do this practice to.

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07-03-2013, 05:30 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Bench View Post
The GM community is a small one. You'd have to ask them, because there's obviously a stigma.

Burke called Edmonton's offer sheet "gutless" and claimed, ""Edmonton has offered a mostly inflated salary for a player, and I think it's an act of desperation for a general manager who is fighting to keep his job."

He's callously outspoken, but I doubt he was the only one who didn't like it.
Then take it up with the union and the owners. They agreed to the contract.

It's fair game. RFA offer sheets have been in what? 3 or 4 straight CBAs?

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07-03-2013, 05:32 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by The Zetterberg Era View Post
It is within the rules, they certainly have attached a far more damaging package in terms of what you give up to do it in the NHL versus say the NBA. How many players are truly worth four 1st round picks? Seriously not as many as you would think even if you're low on the draft or reasonable depending on how you see it.

One of the reasons I find both Giroux or Petro an interesting case, because I would probably be willing to do it. I just think by in large they are matched and you have likely upset the people involved. It isn't dirty pool, because it is legal, but many would see it as being a jerk way of doing business.

If we agree with the cost go for it, but know that it might come back on you and you're unlikely to get the player anyway. Certainly if someone did this to one of our guys, I would love to see the reaction in the future. Ilitch and Holland seem like the kind of guys that would target in response.

Interestingly it looks like Petro wants an offer sheet by some reports so he can get his best offer. Curious how many players start hoping for that, especially if they are convinced they will match who cares where you get it. Vanek certainly made a killing with this logic, Fedorov got all of his little hearts desires rigging a contract through this process, and Weber is getting paid out big time. I am curious why more players don't really try to use this, they just need to get a couple GMs to bite. I don't expect ours to lead the group though, he and Burke are probably the most vocal in terms of against this, although the Wings did study doing it for Weber.

I think you should be very careful who you do this practice to.
If it's worth the cost (salary + picks), make the offer.

Any team GM worried about sticking it to you as retribution is a GM too stupid to have a job for very long

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07-03-2013, 05:38 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
Then take it up with the union and the owners. They agreed to the contract.

It's fair game. RFA offer sheets have been in what? 3 or 4 straight CBAs?
You're obviously correct, rules are rules, but that doesn't change how some GMs feel.

Regardless, Holland was still eyeing Weber so we know he doesn't find it to be completely out of line to poach RFAs.

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Old
07-03-2013, 09:34 PM
  #48
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No, of course not.
Although i have said before that I'd love to see us go after McDonagh, cos he's going to be a total stud for years. And to think Montreal gave him up for less than a bag of pucks....
Yeah, I like McDonagh but of course Holland would never do an offer sheet. It will never happen. Ever.

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07-03-2013, 09:37 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Vladdy84 View Post
Still talking about d-men? WTF. We have some excellent young d-men and some fantastic young prospects. WE NEED GOAL SCORERS. SCORE GOALS.
Our biggest need is a #1 d-man. Our forwards are much closer to being NHL players than our d-men, mostly because Holland will keep the rearguards out of the NHL until they run out of protection from being subjected to the waiver wire.

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07-03-2013, 09:37 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
Yeah, I like McDonagh but of course Holland would never do an offer sheet. It will never happen. Ever.
I wouldn't quite say that ever part. Wasn't there speculation that Detroit wanted to offer sheet Weber in the past offseason but he decided on Philly?

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