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Old
01-08-2004, 03:43 PM
  #51
Yanner39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by momentai
You know what I'm sick of? This team NOT rebuilding time and time again trying to be content with an 7-8th place finish. That is what eats me alive.
So this team has not rebuild in the last 10 or 15 years? Seems to me the reason why they've always contended for the 7 or 8th spot is losing players in their prime. I'm sorry but I don't by that. The Oilers have always traded their top players for younger players. That is rebuilding. To be honest, I couldn't care less if they get Satan or not. Before this thread was started, I never even thought of him in an Oiler uni. But for you to say the Oilers haven't rebuild? C'mon.

Each deal they make, they always get draft picks. That's rebuilding. They made a very good deal for Comrie. That's rebuilding. It's not like Lowe has a history of making deals that mortgage the future. Quite the opposite. All I'm saying is a player like Satan could also be part of the Oilers future. How old is he, 27? Heck, if they're going to be serious about rebuilding, they should throw the season, and draft Ovechin. That with the Flyers first round pick would be great.

Hey I guess we have a different way to look at things. I think the OIlers are on the right track. Some of the prospects we have coming up and going to good for the OIlers for years to come. As long as they don't give up too much, I don't see anything wrong with getting help now. K.lo will show he gives a damn and wants to win.


Last edited by Yanner39: 01-08-2004 at 03:56 PM.
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Old
01-08-2004, 05:13 PM
  #52
momentai
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. van Nostrin
The Oilers have always traded their top players for younger players. That is rebuilding.
This is where you and I disagree. What the Oilers are doing is trying to keep themselves above water.

Case in point: Trading Guerin for Anson Carter
Trading Anson Carter for Radek Dvorak
Acquiring Brad Isbister
Dealing for Cory Cross
Hecht being one of the prime returns in the Weight deal


These are not moves that spark me as rebuilding. Most of these players were around 25 years old and older. Players that were in the NHL but had yet to enter their "prime" years of contributing to a team. To me that is not rebuilding properly... it is stalling the club in the present in order to get a crack at making the playoffs. It's looking for a way to help the club now first and hopefully in the future later.

If I trade Anson Carter, why bring back a 27 year old Dvorak? I trade Niinimaa, why take back a 26 year old in Brad Isbister back?

Why not go for a Lundmark? Tyutin? Garth Murray? Trent Hunter? Bergenheim?

Looking at it... doesn't it look like an organization that's spinning its wheels so to speak? Getting draft picks in a deal does necessariily equate to rebuilding. Draft picks are exchanged in deals all the time and do not always constitute a rebuild for a club. Philly certainly wasn't rebuilding when they dealt Fedotenko, etc. for the 4th overall.

Satan is 29 years old at the moment with a 10 million dollar deal. That is inherently the opposite direction for a club to take... The Oilers have always finished in the 7-8th spot... Sure. A lot of excitement for one round in the playoffs but that's all we get. (And I know that teams like Calgary would die for that opportunity) But we are consistently stuck drafting in the midteens or later and hoping that one of our picks turns into something special.

I know Kevin Lowe wants to win. But dealing for Satan is not the correct way to go about it. Satan, as I stated, is 29 years old... and by the time his contract ends he will (most likely) be gone as a 31 year old. Satan will be our highest paid forward... and he is well known for being a streaky one at that.

Kevin Lowe wants to compete as much as the next person. But it takes a special person to know when to fold the cards and start over.

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Old
01-08-2004, 05:24 PM
  #53
Yanner39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by momentai
This is where you and I disagree. What the Oilers are doing is trying to keep themselves above water.

Case in point: Trading Guerin for Anson Carter
Trading Anson Carter for Radek Dvorak
Acquiring Brad Isbister
Dealing for Cory Cross
Hecht being one of the prime returns in the Weight deal


These are not moves that spark me as rebuilding. Most of these players were around 25 years old and older. Players that were in the NHL but had yet to enter their "prime" years of contributing to a team. To me that is not rebuilding properly... it is stalling the club in the present in order to get a crack at making the playoffs. It's looking for a way to help the club now first and hopefully in the future later.

If I trade Anson Carter, why bring back a 27 year old Dvorak? I trade Niinimaa, why take back a 26 year old in Brad Isbister back?

Why not go for a Lundmark? Tyutin? Garth Murray? Trent Hunter? Bergenheim?

Looking at it... doesn't it look like an organization that's spinning its wheels so to speak? Getting draft picks in a deal does necessariily equate to rebuilding. Draft picks are exchanged in deals all the time and do not always constitute a rebuild for a club. Philly certainly wasn't rebuilding when they dealt Fedotenko, etc. for the 4th overall.

Satan is 29 years old at the moment with a 10 million dollar deal. That is inherently the opposite direction for a club to take... The Oilers have always finished in the 7-8th spot... Sure. A lot of excitement for one round in the playoffs but that's all we get. (And I know that teams like Calgary would die for that opportunity) But we are consistently stuck drafting in the midteens or later and hoping that one of our picks turns into something special.

I know Kevin Lowe wants to win. But dealing for Satan is not the correct way to go about it. Satan, as I stated, is 29 years old... and by the time his contract ends he will (most likely) be gone as a 31 year old. Satan will be our highest paid forward... and he is well known for being a streaky one at that.

Kevin Lowe wants to compete as much as the next person. But it takes a special person to know when to fold the cards and start over.
No Satan may not be a good deal, especially for his age and $10M contract. But I do hope that Lowe won't stand by and let this team miss the playoffs.

You make good point with the trades you listed, although I don't know if these trades were done in the spirit of rebuilding. I think Lowe has done a good job rebuilding while keeping his team competitive by making these deals. I mean, would you like them to rebuild like Pittsburg? Probably not. I know I don't.

It's clear Lowe is rebuilding this team, mostly with the draft. Making trades like the Comrie trade, Hecht. etc. to get draft picks it's clear what he wants to accomplish and that's not a bad model to follow. It worked for Ottawa.

I hope that if he has the chance to make a good trade that will help the team in the present, I hope he does.

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Old
01-08-2004, 05:38 PM
  #54
momentai
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. van Nostrin
No Satan may not be a good deal, especially for his age and $10M contract. But I do hope that Lowe won't stand by and let this team miss the playoffs.
Personally, I hope they do though. And if they do they had better do a good job at it. No 9th place finishes or I'll be more than a little perturbed. You don't win without some quality impact forwards/dmen... and right now Hemsky is probably the only one I can think of for this club and he's currently on the 4th line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. van Nostrin
You make good point with the trades you listed, although I don't know if these trades were done in the spirit of rebuilding. I think Lowe has done a good job rebuilding while keeping his team competitive by making these deals. I mean, would you like them to rebuild like Pittsburg? Probably not. I know I don't.
You were the one that said that trading for younger players is essentially rebuilding and Brad Isbister/Radek Dvorak are prime examples for that. Personally, I don't consider it rebuilding either. I think Lowe's done a good job in keeping this team competitive as well. But doing well in a job with a flawed plan still means that the plan is flawed.

We wouldn't have to rebuild like Pittsburg. When you look at this team it is already pretty young anyways with players like Semenov, Brewer, Hemsky, and Torres being key contributors. Why straddle the fence when this team is so close to a rebuild anyway?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. van Nostrin
It's clear Lowe is rebuilding this team, mostly with the draft. Making trades like the Comrie trade, Hecht. etc. to get draft picks is clear what he wants to accomplish and that's not a bad model to follow. It worked for Ottawa.

I hope that if he has the chance to make a good trade that will help the team in the present, I hope he does.
I know Lowe is trying to rebuild through the draft. Any good, competitive club shoud function that way. Detroit has done it. Colorado has done it in the past though they have gotten really weak in that regard of late. And Ottawa has done it as well. Even Dallas has some fine prospects.

But to make a good club, you have to have some impact players... and the Oilers currently have one. As an organization, the Oilers cannot go out and sign a Roenick, Tkachuk, or a Guerin... So, the only way that we can acquire one is through the draft. And the likelihood of finding one in the mid to late teens is a lot tougher than in the top 10. Honestly, it's going to be tough for the Oilers to find a Suter or Phaneuf in the Seabrooke range...

If Kevin Lowe finds a trade that will help the Oilers now and ALSO in the future like a Kalinin trade... I'm all for it. If it's for an older player specifically for the Oilers to win NOW, then that is something I cannot get on board with.

Whew. I'm tired.

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Old
01-08-2004, 05:52 PM
  #55
Yanner39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by momentai
Personally, I hope they do though. And if they do they had better do a good job at it. No 9th place finishes or I'll be more than a little perturbed. You don't win without some quality impact forwards/dmen... and right now Hemsky is probably the only one I can think of for this club and he's currently on the 4th line.



You were the one that said that trading for younger players is essentially rebuilding and Brad Isbister/Radek Dvorak are prime examples for that. Personally, I don't consider it rebuilding either. I think Lowe's done a good job in keeping this team competitive as well. But doing well in a job with a flawed plan still means that the plan is flawed.

We wouldn't have to rebuild like Pittsburg. When you look at this team it is already pretty young anyways with players like Semenov, Brewer, Hemsky, and Torres being key contributors. Why straddle the fence when this team is so close to a rebuild anyway?



I know Lowe is trying to rebuild through the draft. Any good, competitive club shoud function that way. Detroit has done it. Colorado has done it in the past though they have gotten really weak in that regard of late. And Ottawa has done it as well. Even Dallas has some fine prospects.

But to make a good club, you have to have some impact players... and the Oilers currently have one. As an organization, the Oilers cannot go out and sign a Roenick, Tkachuk, or a Guerin... So, the only way that we can acquire one is through the draft. And the likelihood of finding one in the mid to late teens is a lot tougher than in the top 10. Honestly, it's going to be tough for the Oilers to find a Suter or Phaneuf in the Seabrooke range...

If Kevin Lowe finds a trade that will help the Oilers now and ALSO in the future like a Kalinin trade... I'm all for it. If it's for an older player specifically for the Oilers to win NOW, then that is something I cannot get on board with.

Whew. I'm tired.
Fair enough. Rebuilding can be done by trading and drafting and I think Lowe has done a good job at that. Some trades were to rebuild, others were done to remain competitive, other accomplished both. I'm sure if by some small chance the Oilers would trade for Satan, he'd get some sort of dratf pick or prospect.

Anyways, I agree with you - I tired too. I wish the Oilers would win 15 straight so the subjects of trade talk and picking first in the 2004 draft would be on hold for a few weeks. Always interesting posts and threads but endless debating. I'm going to bed.

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Old
01-08-2004, 06:07 PM
  #56
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It's funny to read how somebody thinks that the Oilers are spinning their wheels. One of the youngest teams in the NHL, and with lots of good prospects coming up. Our future is extremely bright if the financial situation in Edmonton is sorted out. If we can keep this core group together and keep building through the draft we're making progress IMO.

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Old
01-08-2004, 07:04 PM
  #57
momentai
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thome_26
It's funny to read how somebody thinks that the Oilers are spinning their wheels.
Care to elaborate? If you're going to call me out for my opinions, the very least you can do is try and support your argument, correct? Convince me that Dvorak, Isbister, Cross, or Pisani are the key cogs in order to make this team a competitive cup contender in the future a few years from now when our young core is in their prime and some of our prospects make it to the NHL? (such as a Niinimaki, Pouliot, or Brodziak)

I'm always willing to listen but you have to make an argument first and not just an overgeneralized comment.

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