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01-08-2004, 07:13 AM
  #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Griffin
What makes you think that the players will cave in to a $35 mil hard cap? Even then, if the Canucks payroll was over this hard cap of $35 mil, you suggested a 3 year grace period where the Canucks could easily get their team under the cap. Van won't be on the basement floor, sorry.
The Canucks won't be able to sign Naslund because his salary will take their playroll higher, plus your Seattle based owners will choose not to lose money to penalties (i.e. read luxury tax) because their team is increasing salary while over the set Cap! The Van fans will have zero input!!! The price you pay for foreign ownership.

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01-08-2004, 07:14 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by OYLer
Although I disagree with you and your flawed premise, your argument is validly argued. No one owns that crystal ball to the future but a sum total of very wealthy NHL Franchise Owners have drawn a line in the ice. If Smith chooses to test the waters of UFA by not signing soon in Edmonton and Opts to take the Arbitration route, Lowe will trade him. His new team will not need to quailify him as his value will have been satisfied in the playoff run where he improved his negotiatory position or hurt it with his playoff performance. But in either case he will not be signed until a new CBA changes the rules. Thus he is forced into free agency and misses Arbitration which he would have benefitted from.
I don't quite get this one...if Smith tells Lowe he's going to file for arbitration and Lowe trades him before the arbitration date, wouldn't Smith still proceed with arbitration anyway even though his rights are owned by the new team? I believe he has one more year of RFA after this, THEN would become a UFA, so he'll be awarded a contract by the arbitrator. His new team then can choose to pay it or not. If the latter, then Smith becomes a UFA, essentially. But it's not clear to me that being traded from Edmonton means he won't have a contract next season.

Bart

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01-08-2004, 07:21 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by OYLer
The Canucks won't be able to sign Naslund because his salary will take their playroll higher, plus your Seattle based owners will choose not to lose money to penalties (i.e. read luxury tax) because their team is increasing salary while over the set Cap! The Van fans will have zero input!!! The price you pay for foreign ownership.
Your whole argument is based around the hope that there is a hard cap at $35 mil. If that's the case, half the league would be in the same situation as the Canucks, the market would be flooded with players such as Naslund's and their prices would drop dramatically. Naslund's contract is up soon, and at this time, if there is a hard cap at $35 mil(a huge if), Naslund would almost certainly take a paycut to remain with the Canucks rather then go and play for a team like Minnesota or Nashville, two teams who would be well under the cap and could offer Naslund what he is currently making.

In any case, there will be a grace period in which team's are given the chance to re-structure contracts or move out players to help get themselves under a cap, if there is one. In this time frame, the Canucks will get themselves under the cap, and keep their star player. Don't worry, the Canucks will be fine under your far-fetched scenario.

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01-08-2004, 07:31 AM
  #104
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This OILER trade thread degenerated into a Canuck fan bragging about their success. Ignore the troll everyone, and tell me if Lowe might actually move Brewer. I hope to God not.

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01-08-2004, 07:42 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by hemskyfan
This OILER trade thread degenerated into a Canuck fan bragging about their success. Ignore the troll everyone,
So I'm the troll because I'm defending the Canucks when an Oiler fan is saying that the Canucks have no hope in hell of retaining Naslund in the new CBA and that the Canucks will become a bottom feeding team? Ok...

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and tell me if Lowe might actually move Brewer. I hope to God not.
I don't think he will, he's too important to the Oilers' defense. If he did trade him, it would likely take a sweetheart deal.

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01-08-2004, 07:49 AM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barto
I don't quite get this one...if Smith tells Lowe he's going to file for arbitration and Lowe trades him before the arbitration date, wouldn't Smith still proceed with arbitration anyway even though his rights are owned by the new team? I believe he has one more year of RFA after this, THEN would become a UFA, so he'll be awarded a contract by the arbitrator. His new team then can choose to pay it or not. If the latter, then Smith becomes a UFA, essentially. But it's not clear to me that being traded from Edmonton means he won't have a contract next season.

Bart
Remember what happened this year with Boston and Bryan Berard. Just because a player goes to Arbitration doesn't mean a team must sign him or that he won't agree to sign for less later. Wirtz in Chicago grabbed him up at the discounted $2 mil U$ instead of $2.51 mil U$ awarded by the Arbitrator after Boston refused to sign him. Berard might have earned more if he had negotiated and stayed in Boston.

Jason Smith is now in an even more tenuous situation than was Berard, given the uncertainty surrounding the Lockout and New Reality CBA. The New Reality CBA, I like the sound of that phrase, remember folks you read it here first I coined that baby.

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01-08-2004, 08:03 AM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Griffin
Your whole argument is based around the hope that there is a hard cap at $35 mil. If that's the case, half the league would be in the same situation as the Canucks, the market would be flooded with players such as Naslund's and their prices would drop dramatically. Naslund's contract is up soon, and at this time, if there is a hard cap at $35 mil(a huge if), Naslund would almost certainly take a paycut to remain with the Canucks rather then go and play for a team like Minnesota or Nashville, two teams who would be well under the cap and could offer Naslund what he is currently making.

In any case, there will be a grace period in which team's are given the chance to re-structure contracts or move out players to help get themselves under a cap, if there is one. In this time frame, the Canucks will get themselves under the cap, and keep their star player. Don't worry, the Canucks will be fine under your far-fetched scenario.

As a Canuck fan you Know that Van wont be able to retain both Bert and Nas after the "New" NHL takes hold. Is going to be painfull, but it will have to be done.

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01-08-2004, 08:05 AM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OYLer
Remember what happened this year with Boston and Bryan Berard. Just because a player goes to Arbitration doesn't mean a team must sign him or that he won't agree to sign for less later. Wirtz in Chicago grabbed him up at the discounted $2 mil U$ instead of $2.51 mil U$ awarded by the Arbitrator after Boston refused to sign him. Berard might have earned more if he had negotiated and stayed in Boston.

Jason Smith is now in an even more tenuous situation than was Berard, given the uncertainty surrounding the Lockout and New Reality CBA. The New Reality CBA, I like the sound of that phrase, remember folks you read it here first I coined that baby.
OYler... you are bringing up one example in the past 8 years of the CBA. How about we talk about the other 13 players that went to arbitration last year and signed?

Berard got a huge reward for what he does. He isn't a guy you can put out there in all situations and lean on for 22-23 minutes a night. Not only that, but most of the top teams already have the power play specialist, and don't need to use a roster spot on another one.

You can never have too many guys like Jason Smith. Guys you can lean on in case your top defenseman goes out with an injury. The market for Jason Smith is more wide open because you don't mind having 3 or 4 of them on your team, where as you can't really have more than 1 or 2 guys tops who are offensive defensemen who aren't very good in their own end.

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01-08-2004, 08:07 AM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windowlicker
As a Canuck fan you Know that Van wont be able to retain both Bert and Nas after the "New" NHL takes hold. Is going to be painfull, but it will have to be done.
It all depends on what Naslund decides to do. He has stated that he wants to return to Sweden eventually to raise his children, but if the Canucks are still a top team, and if he is still a top player he hinted that it would be much harded for him to return. Canucks fans know that Nazzy likely won't be around too much longer, we're all resigned to that. But if Naslund remains in the NHL, it will be with the Canucks, he'll take a paycut if he has to. He'll head back to Sweden otherwise.

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01-08-2004, 08:12 AM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windowlicker
As a Canuck fan you Know that Van wont be able to retain both Bert and Nas after the "New" NHL takes hold. Is going to be painfull, but it will have to be done.
Sure they will. Depending on what happens with the new CBA, they most certainly will.

The big question is whether or not they can retain their big "4" (Bert, Nazzy, Jovo, Ohlund). It also depends on how long the CBA allows for leeway in terms of getting under whatever cap (if there is a cap) the new CBA calls for.

Heck, it could go something like this:

New CBA, with a salary cap of $40 mil, but it gradually works it's way down over 5 years, i.e. year 1 No cap, year 2 $60Mil, year 3 $55mil, year 4 $50 mil, year 5 $45 mil. In that scenario, the Canucks can keep all their players for as long as they want.

It's all a matter of whether or not they can afford the 2nd line they need to be true cup contenders

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01-08-2004, 08:13 AM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rage
Paul Allen owns the Canucks? I think John McCaw will be surprised to hear that...
Hey The Rage, I took a shot at you once and I've noticed you are backing up your opinions with facts and some analyses even when I'm your target. The Nextel boys are pulling the Canuck strings since they told the Griffiths(sp) and the other minority partners it was their way or the highway. Just as soon as Van's NBA B-ball teams hit red ink they were sold down the road. Vancouver is a pretty good hockey market now but Seattle/Redman will always be, that Prince of a hockey market in-waiting, anxious to be crowned King. Fans in Van better stay on the bandwagon through those next series of lean years or it will be the Seattle Sticks and they just keep that Minimalist Jersey with the Hockey Stick!

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01-08-2004, 08:15 AM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Griffin
So I'm the troll because I'm defending the Canucks when an Oiler fan is saying that the Canucks have no hope in hell of retaining Naslund in the new CBA and that the Canucks will become a bottom feeding team? Ok...
Personally, I didn't see anything in your posts as 'trolling', or even 'bragging' for that matter. It's obviously a sensitive subject for us Edmonton fans, though, so don't take it too hard!

Bart

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01-08-2004, 08:17 AM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OYLer
Remember what happened this year with Boston and Bryan Berard. Just because a player goes to Arbitration doesn't mean a team must sign him or that he won't agree to sign for less later. Wirtz in Chicago grabbed him up at the discounted $2 mil U$ instead of $2.51 mil U$ awarded by the Arbitrator after Boston refused to sign him. Berard might have earned more if he had negotiated and stayed in Boston.

Jason Smith is now in an even more tenuous situation than was Berard, given the uncertainty surrounding the Lockout and New Reality CBA. The New Reality CBA, I like the sound of that phrase, remember folks you read it here first I coined that baby.
Actually, I *did* point out the fact that Smith's new team could choose not to pay him, thus giving Gator some UFA-like status. Berard is an example of where arbitration failed a player (and Kristich a couple of years ago), but there are counter-examples as well. Look at the Wings with Hatcher...they paid VERY well (and long-term) for a guy they thought could help them.

I'm just saying that it's not a given that Smith ends up without a contract next year, even if he opts for arbitration.

Bart

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01-08-2004, 08:24 AM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barto
Personally, I didn't see anything in your posts as 'trolling', or even 'bragging' for that matter.
Thankyou, I appreciate it.

Quote:
It's obviously a sensitive subject for us Edmonton fans, though, so don't take it too hard!
I understand that the results of the next CBA will have a huge factor on teams like Edmonton and Calgary, moreso then most other teams. I just don't see the point of some Oiler fans saying that the Canucks won't be able to keep Naslund, they'l be a bottom feeding team, next step Seattle etc.. I'm a huge supporter of hockey staying where it belongs, in cities like Edmonton and Calgary. But if Vancouver leaves, Edmonton and Calgary will be right behind, no doubt about it. And the last thing I want to see is the true hockey fans, Canadians, losing any more teams.

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01-08-2004, 10:00 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by OYLer
Hey The Rage, I took a shot at you once and I've noticed you are backing up your opinions with facts and some analyses even when I'm your target.
You took a shot at me? That's news to me. I guess I get that so much, I've become desensitized .

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01-08-2004, 10:06 AM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
OYler... you are bringing up one example in the past 8 years of the CBA. How about we talk about the other 13 players that went to arbitration last year and signed?

Berard got a huge reward for what he does. He isn't a guy you can put out there in all situations and lean on for 22-23 minutes a night. Not only that, but most of the top teams already have the power play specialist, and don't need to use a roster spot on another one.

You can never have too many guys like Jason Smith. Guys you can lean on in case your top defenseman goes out with an injury. The market for Jason Smith is more wide open because you don't mind having 3 or 4 of them on your team, where as you can't really have more than 1 or 2 guys tops who are offensive defensemen who aren't very good in their own end.
You kinda' lost me here abit dawgbone, a one-eyed Berard isn't really power play specialist anymore but he can still play great defense and skates well. He is the best example of why Arbitration won't help Smith because he is the last example and reflects the new stance the Owners are taking relative to prudent fiscal management. Hey my simple argument was the 'Oil' should be able to sign our Captain because "the times, they are a-changing."

What was just poetry to Dylan Thomas put rock-n-roll buck$ into Robert Zimmerman's jeans but I personally won't spend no Fiddy Cents to listen to yap-rap beat to death by the tonedeaf whose reality I don't share. But one universal truth always rings through, if the Market will bare it, entertainment product will sell whether you or I like it or not. But younger people buy music and older folks spend the bigger bucks to populate venues Rexall Place and Uniondale Arena. Edmonton and Long Island fans are in agreement (especially as they continue to pay the Yashin price-well the insurers now that he is hurt) players are making just too much money.

NHL fans have spoken by removing their dollars and now those with their hands out need to recognize the meat and potatoes will still be there ... but the gravy has run dry. Times are lean and living off the Fat-of-the-Fan-Land is over. I predict Smith signs for 3 years @ $2.2 mil U$ per year. Time will tell who is right.

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01-08-2004, 10:16 AM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OYLer
You kinda' lost me here abit dawgbone, a one-eyed Berard isn't really power play specialist anymore but he can still play great defense and skates well. He is the best example of why Arbitration won't help Smith because he is the last example and reflects the new stance the Owners are taking relative to prudent fiscal management. Hey my simple argument was the 'Oil' should be able to sign our Captain because "the times, they are a-changing."
"Still play great defense"... OYler, still implies that he had done it before, which isn't the case. Berard was at best, sub-par defensively. Owners, as have been proven over the past 8 years, are too stupid to take a stance unless it is forced upon them. There were still contracts that had terms like 6 years, $30 million, despite the fact that the new CBA would start before that.

Quote:
NHL fans have spoken by removing their dollars and now those with their hands out need to recognize the meat and potatoes will still be there ... but the gravy has run dry. Times are lean and living off the Fat-of-the-Fan-Land is over. I predict Smith signs for 3 years @ $2.2 mil U$ per year. Time will tell who is right.
You aren't entirely accurate there. While fans in a lot of cities have put their money away, there are the fans in a handful of cities who haven't. And these handful of cities include the teams who have no trouble picking up a Jason Smith on little more than a whime. Cities like Detroit haven't said anything, neither have fans in Colorado, Dallas, New York, Toronoto. These are all teams that have had no trouble doing whatever they want. These are all cities that demand championships, and don't care if you raise the ticket price 25%, as long as the payroll gets raised that much.

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01-08-2004, 12:36 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Peter Griffin
I'm not disagreeing with the Linden trade, that had to be done and Keenan got great value for him. I'm disagreeing with the way he handled his other moves and the team. Keenan did more harm then good, one trade doesn't make up for that.

BTW, the Canucks never averaged 11,000 fans per game in that time span, the lowest they went was just under 14,000.
Oh, I think Keenan has done more short term harm than good everywhere he has been and apparently every owner he works for agrees with that. That said I think that Keenan has proven everywhere he has been (including Vancouver) that he knows a) how to build a winner and b) what hockey talent looks like. That said, I say again, I know he is a totally disruptive personality. If you could only hire him to give advice long distance . . .

As for the average fans I'm sure those were the published figures and I just guessed at 11,000 but it sure looked 'half empty' more than 'half full' for a lot of years there.

Anyway, best of luck to your team. I really think they are getting close with the exception that everybody mentions which is the second line. One player could be all that is needed and that will be a deadline decision I'm sure if Burke figures the rest of the stars are aligned.

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01-08-2004, 05:51 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by theoil
Anyway, best of luck to your team. I really think they are getting close with the exception that everybody mentions which is the second line. One player could be all that is needed and that will be a deadline decision I'm sure if Burke figures the rest of the stars are aligned.

Best of luck to the Oilers as well. Let's hope they make the postseason, as it looks like this may be one of the odd years that you guys wouldn't have to play the Stars!

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01-08-2004, 08:24 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Peter Griffin
Thankyou, I appreciate it.



I understand that the results of the next CBA will have a huge factor on teams like Edmonton and Calgary, moreso then most other teams. I just don't see the point of some Oiler fans saying that the Canucks won't be able to keep Naslund, they'l be a bottom feeding team, next step Seattle etc.. I'm a huge supporter of hockey staying where it belongs, in cities like Edmonton and Calgary. But if Vancouver leaves, Edmonton and Calgary will be right behind, no doubt about it. And the last thing I want to see is the true hockey fans, Canadians, losing any more teams.
Well really, if Vancity was leaving, the Flames and Oilers would be leading the parade, not following behind, but thats just a matter of opinion

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