HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk Trade rumors, transactions, and free agent talk. Rumors must contain the word RUMOR in post title. Proposals must contain the word PROPOSAL in post title.

Has the hockey world lost its mind?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
07-04-2013, 06:46 PM
  #26
SERE 24
LGR
 
SERE 24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: New York
Country: United States
Posts: 9,842
vCash: 500
I'm with the OP. The asking prices have sky rocketed. I like guys like Filpulla a lot, but as little as a year ago, I'd have figured he'd be a 4-5 years at 4M signing this summer. Never would have thought guys like Letang and Giroux would be getting the kind of extensions they're getting. Saw Letang as like a 6.25M and Giroux at 6.8Mish. I'm not really sure what the lockout was actually about. These guys are making out like bandits.

Now, not that it applies to guys like Letang and Giroux, who are elite players, but these guys like Clarkson, Horton, Filpulla, Weiss, etc. are not elite players. They're all secondary threats, as the OP points out, that will need to play on a team that either has a committee of offensive players (like the Bruins, where Horton enjoyed success) or as a compliment to at least one or two other high end offensive players. Asking for 6M a year is ridiculous for guys that aren't going to create their own offense. Paying a guy like David Clarkson 6M+ is absolutely BAT **** INSANE.

SERE 24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2013, 06:48 PM
  #27
danishh
Dat Stache
 
danishh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: mtl/ott/somewhere
Country: Canada
Posts: 29,659
vCash: 500
It doesnt matter. The players get a set amount based on revenues. Everytime a player signs an overpaid contract, they're just taking money away from another player, not from the owners.

danishh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2013, 06:48 PM
  #28
armedwithturtles
Registered User
 
armedwithturtles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Toronto, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 14
vCash: 500
Like everyone has said before they'll cave eventually. They obviously want to play hockey so once they realize no teams want to pay their ridiculous wages they'll settle for lower

armedwithturtles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2013, 06:49 PM
  #29
bert
Registered User
 
bert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,800
vCash: 500
The cap floor is still too high for a lot of teams, the discrepancy in revenue generated is so outrageously different from one franchise to the next. There will be no normal salaries until the wealthy teams start sharing the revenue on more of an even kiel. I completely understand why they don't want to but until they do we will see this mayhem all the time.

When I first saw Lecavaliers contract I thought we had some sort of control but when Brier gets 4 million per, Alfredsson wants 6 then I hear that Clarkson wants 5+ I realize everything has gone to hell.

I find it hilarious when people are like 'Alfie only got 1 million last year' well his cap hit was 4.8 sooooo he was paid 4.8 at one point. Is that so difficult to understand?

bert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2013, 06:50 PM
  #30
taunting canadian
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,368
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MPF24 View Post
I'm with the OP. The asking prices have sky rocketed. I like guys like Fipulla a lot, but as little as a year ago, I'd have figured he'd be a 4-5 years at 4M signing this summer. Never would have thought guys like Letang and Giroux would be getting the kind of extensions they're getting. Saw Letang as like a 6.25M and Giroux at 6.8Mish. I'm not really sure what the lockout was actually about. These guys are making out like bandits.
To some extent it's an illusion (or rather, the pre-lockout long-term deal cap hits were illusions). We don't have the 12 year deals with 3 garbage years at 1M$ tacked onto the end anymore, as a result the reported yearly averages look higher, even if the actual $s being paid out in non-fake years is exactly the same.

taunting canadian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2013, 06:50 PM
  #31
TorstenFrings
Co-Trainer
 
TorstenFrings's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Kiel
Country: Germany
Posts: 4,288
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MPF24 View Post
I'm with the OP. The asking prices have sky rocketed. I like guys like Fipulla a lot, but as little as a year ago, I'd have figured he'd be a 4-5 years at 4M signing this summer. Never would have thought guys like Letang and Giroux would be getting the kind of extensions they're getting. Saw Letang as like a 6.25M and Giroux at 6.8Mish. I'm not really sure what the lockout was actually about. These guys are making out like bandits.
But that was because you'd lock player like Letang and Giroux up for 14 years after their bridge contracts then. Calculate the AVV for the first 8 years of Weber or somesuch.

TorstenFrings is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2013, 06:53 PM
  #32
burgess1978
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Gold Coast
Country: Australia
Posts: 2,304
vCash: 500
Can't believe what Philly has done ... "Oh no ... we've got no cap space ... let's use our 2 compliance buyouts ... oh wow ... look at all this cap space .. let's sign Vinny and Streit ... oh no ... no cap space again".

burgess1978 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2013, 06:54 PM
  #33
tc23
Moderator
#StopWeberSbisa2014
 
tc23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,976
vCash: 500
Just because the cap went down, doesn't mean players aren't going to want raises.

tc23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2013, 06:59 PM
  #34
Tonka
Diggles
 
Tonka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 8,324
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyerss View Post
The Ducks started all of this by giving Getzlaf and Perry 8m
No, they were underpaid for many years as well.

Tonka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2013, 07:01 PM
  #35
Bourne Endeavor
Moderator
HFBoards: Night's Watch
 
Bourne Endeavor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,756
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by danishh View Post
It doesnt matter. The players get a set amount based on revenues. Everytime a player signs an overpaid contract, they're just taking money away from another player, not from the owners.
Yes, but then they have a tendency to whine about it. Hence the last two lockouts. Just keep compliance buyouts allowed every CBA and we're good.

Bourne Endeavor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2013, 07:06 PM
  #36
rumrokh
Jake the Snake Man
 
rumrokh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,925
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BB v2 0 View Post
Agreed. Just DON'T GIVE IN TO THEIR DEMANDS. It's not ****ing hard.
You'd think, wouldn't you?

That's why the whole players vs. owners thing is a farce in the first place. The players are united in what they want, but the teams are not. The NHL will never be healthy to the core as long as the owners fight each other the way they do while pretending to be a unified group.
They either need a regulatory committee that prevents a minority of teams from gradually wrecking market value or they need to crank up revenue sharing among the teams so that they compensate the teams they hurt.

This step-down of the cap is just a weird situation, though. One player might cash in while a couple others are legit NHL players who don't even get interest. Winning/losing is not easy to judge as a whole.
No way a guy like Weiss gets that much money and I seriously doubt that rumor in the first place. I'm willing to see what shakes out and then judge who has lost their minds.

rumrokh is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2013, 07:19 PM
  #37
BernieParent
Registered User
 
BernieParent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Montreal, QC
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,365
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianLov3 View Post
I think they're just begging for another lockout.
On this point, both sides know that there will be ZERO repercussions from we the suck ..., er, I mean, the fans.

BernieParent is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2013, 07:27 PM
  #38
MatthewBarnabysTears
Registered User
 
MatthewBarnabysTears's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Country: United States
Posts: 1,013
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by rumrokh View Post
You'd think, wouldn't you?

That's why the whole players vs. owners thing is a farce in the first place. The players are united in what they want, but the teams are not. The NHL will never be healthy to the core as long as the owners fight each other the way they do while pretending to be a unified group.
They either need a regulatory committee that prevents a minority of teams from gradually wrecking market value or they need to crank up revenue sharing among the teams so that they compensate the teams they hurt.

This step-down of the cap is just a weird situation, though. One player might cash in while a couple others are legit NHL players who don't even get interest. Winning/losing is not easy to judge as a whole.
No way a guy like Weiss gets that much money and I seriously doubt that rumor in the first place. I'm willing to see what shakes out and then judge who has lost their minds.

So your proposed solution is ownership collusion to artificially suppress salaries?

When a team gives a UFA a large contract it's because they're valuing that player, at his current level of development and compared to alternative options, at that dollar amount. it's not a few owners "going rogue." It's just the market working as it should.

MatthewBarnabysTears is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2013, 07:36 PM
  #39
rumrokh
Jake the Snake Man
 
rumrokh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,925
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewBarnabysTears View Post
So your proposed solution is ownership collusion to artificially suppress salaries?

When a team gives a UFA a large contract it's because they're valuing that player, at his current level of development and compared to alternative options, at that dollar amount. it's not a few owners "going rogue." It's just the market working as it should.
When it's the same rich teams giving out big contracts and the same rich teams who don't want to share revenue with smaller market teams, it's pretty clear what's going on. They're angling long-term for contraction. That's not "going rogue," that's teams acting as individuals rather than a unified body with the same interests. It's a blatant conflict. No matter what you do to rectify the issue, it will continue to be an issue until it's addressed.

It's possible the salary cap and contract lengths and so forth ultimately balance everything, but we'll see. That's why I said I was willing to decide based on actual salaries instead of rumored demands. However, there's a strong pattern in the NHL of teams not holding strong. All it takes is one team to cave a little and outbid everybody else and over the course of several years, comparable contracts for negotiation and RFA's in arbitration are all over the place.

rumrokh is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2013, 07:42 PM
  #40
MatthewBarnabysTears
Registered User
 
MatthewBarnabysTears's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Country: United States
Posts: 1,013
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by rumrokh View Post
When it's the same rich teams giving out big contracts and the same rich teams who don't want to share revenue with smaller market teams, it's pretty clear what's going on. They're angling long-term for contraction. That's not "going rogue," that's teams acting as individuals rather than a unified body with the same interests. It's a blatant conflict. No matter what you do to rectify the issue, it will continue to be an issue until it's addressed.

It's possible the salary cap and contract lengths and so forth ultimately balance everything, but we'll see. That's why I said I was willing to decide based on actual salaries instead of rumored demands. However, there's a strong pattern in the NHL of teams not holding strong. All it takes is one team to cave a little and outbid everybody else and over the course of several years, comparable contracts for negotiation and RFA's in arbitration are all over the place.
Honestly, I think if we could see the books of all of these "poor teams" we would see that they have more than enough revenue to compete in the UFA market with the "rich teams." That's what happenes whenever baseball or basketball team finances leak (for a specific example, google the Pittsburgh Pirates' finances).

MatthewBarnabysTears is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2013, 07:45 PM
  #41
Gardner McKay
Moderator
Niles, Pls.
 
Gardner McKay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Atlanta
Country: United States
Posts: 10,737
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guru Meditation View Post
I thought the players lost the lockout battle.

Now we're looking at secondary-level guys asking for the moon. Steve Weiss reportedly wants 6 million a year. For 5 years. Valtteri Filppula wants 5.5 for 6-7 years. Clarkson and Horton want 6+ for 5+ years. With the possible exception of Horton (and I'm not particularly certain of it), those guys are 2nd liners. Bonus factoid: Martin St. Louis almost outscored all 4 of those players put together. If they get what they're demanding, 3/4 of them will make more than MSL, and all of them for more years.

On top of dollars, why does every single contract have such ridiculous term? What has happened in the hockey world to make every UFA contract a lifetime deal? Didn't players lose their leverage, not gain it?

It's annoying for my team in particular because they're about to be a very young team, and so they need roster spots in 3 years, but yet also have cap space to spend here and now. In today's market, you can be willing to pay 5-6 million and come up with nothing because you aren't willing to go above 2 or 3 years.

But outside of my own team, is it going to go on like this, or is this a situation specific to the buyouts? and, well... CAN it go on like this? It seems like not everybody can get those sorts of deals. Even if the dollar amount comes down and the term stays, doesn't that radically change how you build a team now? I feel like it does.

Its called supply and demand. THe basic theory of economics. UFA crop sucks (Supply is low) & Demand is high. Although with the cap going down that should have eased these ridiculous requests a bit. Still though, not completely off base.

If it turns out the demand is not that because of the cap going down then they can continue to ask for whatever they want but in reality will never get close to it.

__________________
Gardner McKay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2013, 07:49 PM
  #42
Jet Set
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 345
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by burgess1978 View Post
Can't believe what Philly has done ... "Oh no ... we've got no cap space ... let's use our 2 compliance buyouts ... oh wow ... look at all this cap space .. let's sign Vinny and Streit ... oh no ... no cap space again".
This made me laugh. .... ...

Jet Set is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2013, 07:50 PM
  #43
Captain Saku
Registered User
 
Captain Saku's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Montreal
Posts: 10,949
vCash: 500
The problem with GMs is that they know they have a small window to win the cup. So they ditch long and big contracts to UFAs knowing that in 5 years they may not be here anymore, leaving the problems to their subsequent GM.

With the new CBA, teams like Philadelphia and the Rangers can't sign UFAs to stupid contracts without real consequences.

Captain Saku is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2013, 07:55 PM
  #44
Diatomic
~~~ NAZEM KADRI ~~~
 
Diatomic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Air Canada Centre
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,940
vCash: 500
Imagine if the Cap was 100mil, the David Clarksons and Tyler Bozak's would ask for 10mil per year

Diatomic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2013, 08:00 PM
  #45
Wolfpuck
5/5 Compete Level
 
Wolfpuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Section 308
Country: United States
Posts: 8,757
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by burgess1978 View Post
Can't believe what Philly has done ... "Oh no ... we've got no cap space ... let's use our 2 compliance buyouts ... oh wow ... look at all this cap space .. let's sign Vinny and Streit ... oh no ... no cap space again".


This sums it up perfectly.

Wolfpuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2013, 08:18 PM
  #46
Gardner McKay
Moderator
Niles, Pls.
 
Gardner McKay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Atlanta
Country: United States
Posts: 10,737
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Saku View Post
The problem with GMs is that they know they have a small window to win the cup. So they ditch long and big contracts to UFAs knowing that in 5 years they may not be here anymore, leaving the problems to their subsequent GM.

With the new CBA, teams like Philadelphia and the Rangers can't sign UFAs to stupid contracts without real consequences.
Not really. We can continue to trade them to MTL for bluechip prospects. As long as there is no recapture penalty on the contract, players will still be tradable. That simple.

Gardner McKay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2013, 08:19 PM
  #47
Syckle78
Registered User
 
Syckle78's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Redford, MI
Country: Belgium
Posts: 5,664
vCash: 500
Why are people continually surprised by prices every single year? Prices do not go down,ever.

Syckle78 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2013, 08:21 PM
  #48
deckercky
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 5,746
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Syckle78 View Post
Why are people continually surprised by prices every single year? Prices do not go down,ever.
Wait until a few days after free agency starts. There's going to be some amazing deals for decent players. Too much money has been getting spent up-front relative to the amount of cap space.

deckercky is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2013, 08:22 PM
  #49
MatthewBarnabysTears
Registered User
 
MatthewBarnabysTears's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Country: United States
Posts: 1,013
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeafsWantStanley View Post
Imagine if the Cap was 100mil, the David Clarksons and Tyler Bozak's would ask for 10mil per year
But then they would deserve it. As of right now, a star hockey player gets as much as a good reliever in baseball. "Merit" has no part in this. Salary caps don't pay players what they could get in the market or "deserve"; it suppresses salary artificially. To wit a star NFL player makes what an average MLB starting outfielder makes, despite the fact that the NFL generates more revenue.

MatthewBarnabysTears is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2013, 08:23 PM
  #50
topnotch
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 716
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
Yes, but then they have a tendency to whine about it. Hence the last two lockouts. Just keep compliance buyouts allowed every CBA and we're good.
except that compliance buyouts count against the players' share. All of this extra money being spent outside of the cap (but inside their share) will just increase the amount of escrow the players will have to pay. Of course the players won't like this and will think they are getting screwed.

topnotch is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:28 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.