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NBA Discussion Thread Pt. II

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Old
07-04-2013, 12:48 PM
  #301
DM23BK30
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
blame the GM for his idiocy.

Masai Ujiri has done well with 2 trades against the Knicks. Getting back Galo and dumping Billups for a disgruntled player who publicily stated he wouldn't be back and sending Andrea 'Il Mago Bust' Bargnani to the Knicks.
The Knicks also have done well.

Melo and Bargnani for Camby, Novak, Galo, Chandler, Mozgov, Quincey Miller and Romero Osby, 2 1sts and a 2nd.

Knicks win both on paper alone.

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07-04-2013, 02:15 PM
  #302
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Originally Posted by BroadwayBlues View Post
Let's be real, Amar'e and his contract is the reason the Knicks can't improve therefore take the next step.

If they had another REAL max player, they'd be a top team.

Big mistake signing Amar'e.
Big mistake picking up Biillups option and proceeding to use that Amar'e bailout card (amnesty) on him.
The Knicks roster is flawed all the way through. The only pieces I really like are Chandler and Shumpert. Carmelo is very good at what he's good at but he's also very limited in what he can do. The team has no one to really run the offense well since Felton is the definition of mediocre. Stoudemire is injury prone and can't play defense. Bargnani is injury prone and can't play period. Smith is really nothing more than a volume shooter. Everyone else is an aging veteran. The Knicks took advantage of an injury wracked Eastern Conference last year. I expect them to drop several spots.

I look at the Knicks and the way they continually flush draft picks down the toilet and never seem to have much in the way of young talent and I wonder if they are purposely trying to be the anti-Spurs. It's generally not a good idea to run your team in the exact opposite way as the best run team in the league. I know people are going to spout off about the Knicks building through free agency to become a contender, but that plan is highly suspect. The only team that has succeeded by doing basically nothing but chase free agents is the Heat. The only reason that worked is because one of the guys they landed is the best player in the world. There's only one LeBron and the Knicks aren't getting him.

What's the plan? Landing Kevin Love in two seasons is both a long shot and probably doesn't actually make the Knicks contenders. Carmelo just had his best season in the NBA playing power forward and now you guys want to acquire a guy who ensures that Anthony will never get to play that position. Half-baked ideas like this are why the Knicks are perpetually caught between prentender status and abject mediocrity all while never finding the kind of franchise changing talent available in the draft.

The Knicks would be much better off following an organization like Houston. They acquired a critical mass of picks, young assets, and cap space and waited for the right trade to appear. They were able to deal for Harden, surround him with young talent, and maintain the flexibility to add another big piece. Now they could land Howard and make the jump to being legitimate contenders.

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07-04-2013, 03:47 PM
  #303
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Ujiri is grossly overrated. I still can't believe how nuggets fans think they won the Melo trade. They had the most blatant home-road split for playing in such ridiculous atmosphere. The Knicks were, and continue to be, a better team with Melo than they are without Melo. And this trade isn't nearly as bad if we use the space we're going to get to sign an impact player, which is clearly what the intention is.

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07-04-2013, 06:33 PM
  #304
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Originally Posted by BlueshirtBlitz View Post
Ujiri is grossly overrated. I still can't believe how nuggets fans think they won the Melo trade. They had the most blatant home-road split for playing in such ridiculous atmosphere. The Knicks were, and continue to be, a better team with Melo than they are without Melo. And this trade isn't nearly as bad if we use the space we're going to get to sign an impact player, which is clearly what the intention is.
He's grossly overrated but yet fleeced the Knicks out of more draft picks(again)while giving up players that did not want to stay there anymore.The Nuggets did win the Melo trade.They got rid of him when he wasn't coming back and got a boatload of nice young players and draft picks in return while also shedding salary.

Meanwhile the Knicks have become the new Atlanta Hawks.Looks good on paper,cant get out of the 2nd round because they are so flawed and 1 dimensional.

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07-04-2013, 06:36 PM
  #305
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Originally Posted by Zil View Post
The Knicks roster is flawed all the way through. The only pieces I really like are Chandler and Shumpert. Carmelo is very good at what he's good at but he's also very limited in what he can do. The team has no one to really run the offense well since Felton is the definition of mediocre. Stoudemire is injury prone and can't play defense. Bargnani is injury prone and can't play period. Smith is really nothing more than a volume shooter. Everyone else is an aging veteran. The Knicks took advantage of an injury wracked Eastern Conference last year. I expect them to drop several spots.

I look at the Knicks and the way they continually flush draft picks down the toilet and never seem to have much in the way of young talent and I wonder if they are purposely trying to be the anti-Spurs. It's generally not a good idea to run your team in the exact opposite way as the best run team in the league. I know people are going to spout off about the Knicks building through free agency to become a contender, but that plan is highly suspect. The only team that has succeeded by doing basically nothing but chase free agents is the Heat. The only reason that worked is because one of the guys they landed is the best player in the world. There's only one LeBron and the Knicks aren't getting him.

What's the plan? Landing Kevin Love in two seasons is both a long shot and probably doesn't actually make the Knicks contenders. Carmelo just had his best season in the NBA playing power forward and now you guys want to acquire a guy who ensures that Anthony will never get to play that position. Half-baked ideas like this are why the Knicks are perpetually caught between prentender status and abject mediocrity all while never finding the kind of franchise changing talent available in the draft.

The Knicks would be much better off following an organization like Houston. They acquired a critical mass of picks, young assets, and cap space and waited for the right trade to appear. They were able to deal for Harden, surround him with young talent, and maintain the flexibility to add another big piece. Now they could land Howard and make the jump to being legitimate contenders.
Spot on post.Well done

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07-04-2013, 07:26 PM
  #306
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In asset wise yes, I do think the Knicks won the Melo trade since they got a player to build around. But he was going to sign here either way and it was dumb to give up a trade chip like Galo for that. Galo could've been used to lure the Hornets into trading Paul here. Oh well, what's done is done.

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07-05-2013, 12:20 AM
  #307
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The Knicks roster is flawed?

Funny because a lot of people were saying that last offseason. Remember?

"They're too old"

"They're too slow"

"They'll never replace Lin and Fields"

The Knicks were one of the best teams in the league last year. They lost to an Indiana team which took Miami to the brink.

Melo
Felton
Shumpert
Chandler
Prigioni
Smith
Bargnani
Stoudemire

Easily one of the best teams in the EC. The NBA isnt the NFL or NHL where you need to stockpile picks and load up the organization at multiple positions.

All you need is two stars and you're a championship contender. One star can do it as well. The Knicks are not going to be bad in the near future, so why hold on to a late-round pick who won't develop into a star?

Knicks are fine. I'm convinced the only people who complain about what the Knicks have done the last three seasons are either fans of other teams or just don't know basketball.

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07-05-2013, 12:29 AM
  #308
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Knicks are a top-4 team in East. Heat and Pacers are better. Knicks/Nets/Bulls will healthy Rose are 3/4/5. I'd lean towards putting Bulls at 3 if Rose is healthy. Maybe even 2.

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07-05-2013, 12:52 AM
  #309
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I know some don't care for JR, but I like the risk of the deal, if he had a good playoff he probably would have gotten better offers elsewhere. I'm glad to have him back. Also happy they got Prigioni signed. Seems like they are going to lose Copeland, can't blame the guy for wanting a hefty raise, good for him.

Let's see who else they can add on the veterans minimum to fill out the roster.

Quote:
The Knicks have power forward Elton Brand, small forwards Francisco Garcia, Matt Barnes, and Carlos Delfino on their radar. They also have a $1.4 million veteran’s minimum for a third point guard, with Sebastian Telfair in their crosshairs.

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/knick...20%20%20Knicks

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07-05-2013, 03:36 AM
  #310
mrmovies779
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Originally Posted by GWOW View Post
The Knicks roster is flawed?

Funny because a lot of people were saying that last offseason. Remember?

"They're too old"

"They're too slow"

"They'll never replace Lin and Fields"

The Knicks were one of the best teams in the league last year. They lost to an Indiana team which took Miami to the brink.

Melo
Felton
Shumpert
Chandler
Prigioni
Smith
Bargnani
Stoudemire

Easily one of the best teams in the EC. The NBA isnt the NFL or NHL where you need to stockpile picks and load up the organization at multiple positions.

All you need is two stars and you're a championship contender. One star can do it as well. The Knicks are not going to be bad in the near future, so why hold on to a late-round pick who won't develop into a star?

Knicks are fine. I'm convinced the only people who complain about what the Knicks have done the last three seasons are either fans of other teams or just don't know basketball.
This Knicks roster is seriously flawed.If the series vs the Pacers didn't show you that,im not sure what else to tell you.The Knicks did well in a weak Easten Coference and proceeded to get exposed in the playoffs by a team that played like a team and not relied on its superstar.

Love your mindset though.If people don't agree with your views then they don't understand basketball.Why hold onto late round draft picks indeed.It's only helped teams like the Spurs become champions and retool the right way

Saying this team is easily 1 of the best teams in a weak EC is not exactly a glowing endorsement


Last edited by mrmovies779: 07-05-2013 at 03:43 AM.
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07-05-2013, 03:41 AM
  #311
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Originally Posted by darko View Post
Knicks are a top-4 team in East. Heat and Pacers are better. Knicks/Nets/Bulls will healthy Rose are 3/4/5. I'd lean towards putting Bulls at 3 if Rose is healthy. Maybe even 2.
As it stands right now,the Nets roster is easily better then the Knicks.The Knicks will be lucky to be a top 4 seed this year.

Williams
Johnson
Pierce
Garnet
Lopez

Felton
Shumpert
Melo
Bargnani/Stat
Chandler


Yeah,top 4 seed indeed

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07-05-2013, 03:54 AM
  #312
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Originally Posted by GWOW View Post
The Knicks roster is flawed?

Funny because a lot of people were saying that last offseason. Remember?

"They're too old"

"They're too slow"
If your ultimate goal is building a legitimate title contender, then yes, the Knicks are incredibly flawed. They are neither an actual contender or a team with the assets, young talent, and roster flexibility to make the leap to being one.

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Originally Posted by GWOW View Post
"They'll never replace Lin and Fields"
I've always contended that Lin is an overrated backup pg and Fields is a mediocre role player.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GWOW View Post
The Knicks were one of the best teams in the league last year. They lost to an Indiana team which took Miami to the brink.
They took advantage of a weak, injury wracked Eastern Conference to nab a second seed. If that's your goal, then mission accomplished I guess. Even then, the chances of them repeating that performance this year are highly suspect.

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Originally Posted by GWOW View Post
Melo
Felton
Shumpert
Chandler
Prigioni
Smith
Bargnani
Stoudemire

Easily one of the best teams in the EC. The NBA isnt the NFL or NHL where you need to stockpile picks and load up the organization at multiple positions.
If you think this is a strong roster, then you're delusional. Are names like Felton, Bargnani, Prigioni, Smith, and Stoudemire supposed to be impressive? I actually like Shumpert and Chandler, but come on:

Carmelo - Is very, very good at what he does, but does very, very little. He scores, he rebounds, and he uses his strength in the post.
Felton - In a league where everyone seems to have at least an above average pg, Felton is the definition of mediocrity.
Bargnani - Is just terrible at everything. He hasn't even shot well the last few years.
Prigioni - Is a nice backup pg woohoo.
Smith - Is the prototypical hot and cold volume bench scorer without the faintest inkling of basketball iq.
Stoudemire - Can't stay healthy and can't play defense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GWOW View Post
All you need is two stars and you're a championship contender. One star can do it as well. The Knicks are not going to be bad in the near future, so why hold on to a late-round pick who won't develop into a star?
You have a fundamental lack of understanding of NBA roster construction. Where are these title teams that aren't incredibly well constructed? The Heat roster that has won the last two titles fits together perfectly. Yes they have LeBron, but they have also surrounded him with three point shooters who space the floor and force the opposition to either single team him or leave someone like Ray Allen wide open. You cannot run the kind of crazy misdirection, small-ball sets they feature with just two stars and a random assortment of role players.

Thinking it's ok to dump first round picks because they're not likely to turn into stars is exactly the kind of process that leaves you with the current Knicks roster. Constantly developing useful young talent on rookie contracts is how teams maintain roster flexibility. There's a reason you never see a team like the Spurs just haphazardly dump a draft pick. In a salary cap league you have to maintain your options. Also, drafting a lot of productive young players is how you accumulate the assets to deal for superstars when they actually become available.

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Originally Posted by GWOW View Post
Knicks are fine. I'm convinced the only people who complain about what the Knicks have done the last three seasons are either fans of other teams or just don't know basketball.
The Knicks are fine in the same way the Rangers were fine during the Jagr years. Good enough to sell tickets and maybe win a round in the playoffs, but nothing more.

The supposed promised land of cap space and superstars the Knicks will reach in two years faces the same problem the Lakers are having convincing Dwight Howard to stay: If all you have is a bunch of cap space and no talent to surround potential star free agents with, then star free agents aren't going to want to sign with you.

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07-05-2013, 04:57 AM
  #313
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Knicks will have a great shot to be a top 4 seed, the Knicks, Nets, Pacers, Bulls, and Heat are going to beat up on these teams in their conference. The east is an absolute joke right now, there are probably seven teams that are in tank mode in the east. Atlanta (unless Josh Smith comes back which doesn't seem likely.), Milwaukee, Orlando, Toronto, Philly, Boston, and Charlotte are going to be embarrassing.

Cavs, Washington, and Detroit look to be on there way up, but they are no where close to the top 5 right now in the east. The top 5 should all be over 50 wins quite easily.

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07-05-2013, 06:00 AM
  #314
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Knicks will have a great shot to be a top 4 seed, the Knicks, Nets, Pacers, Bulls, and Heat are going to beat up on these teams in their conference. The east is an absolute joke right now, there are probably seven teams that are in tank mode in the east. Atlanta (unless Josh Smith comes back which doesn't seem likely.), Milwaukee, Orlando, Toronto, Philly, Boston, and Charlotte are going to be embarrassing.

Cavs, Washington, and Detroit look to be on there way up, but they are no where close to the top 5 right now in the east. The top 5 should all be over 50 wins quite easily.


Yeah East is a joke. People thought East was bad this year. Just wait till next season. Unless a team gets ravaged by injuries there are 5 locks for playoffs. Heat, Pacers, Knicks, Nets, Bulls (with or without Rose). Boston is in tank mode. Hawks will lose Josh Smith. Bucks will most likely lose Monta Ellis. Picking remaining 3 playoff teams is like throwing darts. The only team I disagree with are Raptors. It's a perfect opportunity for a team like Raptors to take advantage and sneak in. I don't think they'll be bad at all. 2 other young teams that could sneak in are Cavs and Wizards.

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07-05-2013, 06:13 AM
  #315
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Yeah East is a joke. People thought East was bad this year. Just wait till next season. Unless a team gets ravaged by injuries there are 5 locks for playoffs. Heat, Pacers, Knicks, Nets, Bulls (with or without Rose). Boston is in tank mode. Hawks will lose Josh Smith. Bucks will most likely lose Monta Ellis. Picking remaining 3 playoff teams is like throwing darts. The only team I disagree with are Raptors. It's a perfect opportunity for a team like Raptors to take advantage and sneak in. I don't think they'll be bad at all. 2 other young teams that could sneak in are Cavs and Wizards.
I think the Wizards will make the playoffs pretty easily if they aren't injured like they were last year. All of their big players (Wall, Beal, Nene) missed significant time. I'm also high on Otto Porter.

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07-05-2013, 06:17 AM
  #316
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I think the Wizards will make the playoffs pretty easily if they aren't injured like they were last year. All of their big players (Wall, Beal, Nene) missed significant time. I'm also high on Otto Porter.

Yeah you are right. If they go reasonably injury free they should be a playoff team.

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07-07-2013, 11:21 AM
  #317
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Originally Posted by Zil View Post
If your ultimate goal is building a legitimate title contender, then yes, the Knicks are incredibly flawed. They are neither an actual contender or a team with the assets, young talent, and roster flexibility to make the leap to being one.



I've always contended that Lin is an overrated backup pg and Fields is a mediocre role player.



They took advantage of a weak, injury wracked Eastern Conference to nab a second seed. If that's your goal, then mission accomplished I guess. Even then, the chances of them repeating that performance this year are highly suspect.



If you think this is a strong roster, then you're delusional. Are names like Felton, Bargnani, Prigioni, Smith, and Stoudemire supposed to be impressive? I actually like Shumpert and Chandler, but come on:

Carmelo - Is very, very good at what he does, but does very, very little. He scores, he rebounds, and he uses his strength in the post.
Felton - In a league where everyone seems to have at least an above average pg, Felton is the definition of mediocrity.
Bargnani - Is just terrible at everything. He hasn't even shot well the last few years.
Prigioni - Is a nice backup pg woohoo.
Smith - Is the prototypical hot and cold volume bench scorer without the faintest inkling of basketball iq.
Stoudemire - Can't stay healthy and can't play defense.



You have a fundamental lack of understanding of NBA roster construction. Where are these title teams that aren't incredibly well constructed? The Heat roster that has won the last two titles fits together perfectly. Yes they have LeBron, but they have also surrounded him with three point shooters who space the floor and force the opposition to either single team him or leave someone like Ray Allen wide open. You cannot run the kind of crazy misdirection, small-ball sets they feature with just two stars and a random assortment of role players.

Thinking it's ok to dump first round picks because they're not likely to turn into stars is exactly the kind of process that leaves you with the current Knicks roster. Constantly developing useful young talent on rookie contracts is how teams maintain roster flexibility. There's a reason you never see a team like the Spurs just haphazardly dump a draft pick. In a salary cap league you have to maintain your options. Also, drafting a lot of productive young players is how you accumulate the assets to deal for superstars when they actually become available.



The Knicks are fine in the same way the Rangers were fine during the Jagr years. Good enough to sell tickets and maybe win a round in the playoffs, but nothing more.

The supposed promised land of cap space and superstars the Knicks will reach in two years faces the same problem the Lakers are having convincing Dwight Howard to stay: If all you have is a bunch of cap space and no talent to surround potential star free agents with, then star free agents aren't going to want to sign with you.


All of this is really insignificant, because three years ago, the Knicks werent a playoff team. Two years ago, the Knicks were a borderline playoff team, and last year, the Knicks were title contenders.

People can dissect the roster all they want. You can find flaws in every roster. The reason why the Heat win is because they have Lebron James. The reason why the Knicks were an elite team this year was because of Melo and veteran depth.

That hasn't changed. The Knicks improved their roster from a year ago.

They have the best scorer in the league, the best 6th man in the league, and two of the best defenders in the league -- all 30 or younger. Those four give the Knicks flexibility to plug and play with whatever role and bench players they want. Add felton, who is certainly a capable PG who understands his role, and you have a very solid, well-built roster.

The current Knicks roster? Yep. One of the best in the EC. I'll take it.

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07-07-2013, 11:53 AM
  #318
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People seem to forget this team won 15 games in a row late in the season. They steamrolled everybody. Chandler never recovered from his illness and injury and it showed.

The Knicks have some flaws, no question. But the collective is not flawed. They are still a tough matchup. Bargnani and Stat at their worst are still servicebale. Their price tags make them easy targets.

Some of the bench names being floated around are Telfair, Brand, Delfino, and Pietrus, including K-Mart.

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07-07-2013, 01:36 PM
  #319
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Must be nice to be a fan boy and not look at your own team objectively.

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07-07-2013, 01:49 PM
  #320
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Must be nice to be a fan boy and not look at your own team objectively.
Oh jesus here we go again. Just like last season.

Last season, I was called a "fanboy" (which is the dumbest term to begin with -- how about "fan"?) I endorsed ALL the moves Grunwald made -- and wow, wouldnt you know, 54 wins, the first division title in 20 years and their first playoff series win in 13.

It's called being right.

You remind me of all the other anti-Knicks guys around here. You flooded the boards with Knick bashing after the Miami series in 2012, then went M.I.A from the Opening Night Blowout all through the entire friggin season and Boston series, and then you pop out of the toilet after they get eliminated. Must be tough.

The Knicks werent 20-62 last season. They were a damn good team, and were recognized as one by the people who matter.

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07-07-2013, 01:51 PM
  #321
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Reminds me of the people who bash the Yankees and say they're flawed. Been hearing it since 1994.

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07-07-2013, 02:17 PM
  #322
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Reminds me of the people who bash the Yankees and say they're flawed. Been hearing it since 1994.
Yup, any team with a SS without range, a closer with one pitch, a catcher who cant catch is flawed and bound for long- term failure.

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07-07-2013, 02:50 PM
  #323
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Oh jesus here we go again. Just like last season.

Last season, I was called a "fanboy" (which is the dumbest term to begin with -- how about "fan"?) I endorsed ALL the moves Grunwald made -- and wow, wouldnt you know, 54 wins, the first division title in 20 years and their first playoff series win in 13.

It's called being right.

You remind me of all the other anti-Knicks guys around here. You flooded the boards with Knick bashing after the Miami series in 2012, then went M.I.A from the Opening Night Blowout all through the entire friggin season and Boston series, and then you pop out of the toilet after they get eliminated. Must be tough.

The Knicks werent 20-62 last season. They were a damn good team, and were recognized as one by the people who matter.
lol@being right.They beat up on a weak conference and got bounced out in the 2nd round with a payroll that was in the top of the league.You consider that success?More power to you,i consider that failure.They were assembled to be a title contender,guess what,not even close.

I prefer keeping my eyes open regarding this team and seeing the problems they are going to have

But keep on being a fanboy Alan Hahn.Let me know when they advance past the 2nd round. If you are happy being the new Atlanta Hawks,more power to you.

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07-07-2013, 03:05 PM
  #324
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All of this is really insignificant, because three years ago, the Knicks werent a playoff team. Two years ago, the Knicks were a borderline playoff team, and last year, the Knicks were title contenders.

People can dissect the roster all they want. You can find flaws in every roster. The reason why the Heat win is because they have Lebron James. The reason why the Knicks were an elite team this year was because of Melo and veteran depth.

That hasn't changed. The Knicks improved their roster from a year ago.

They have the best scorer in the league, the best 6th man in the league, and two of the best defenders in the league -- all 30 or younger. Those four give the Knicks flexibility to plug and play with whatever role and bench players they want. Add felton, who is certainly a capable PG who understands his role, and you have a very solid, well-built roster.

The current Knicks roster? Yep. One of the best in the EC. I'll take it.
There's no point in arguing with you if all you're going to do is speak in declarative platitudes without backing them up. They got exposed against a Pacers team with almost no bench depth. The Knicks were not a title contender last year. They are not a title contender this year. And the path to title contention for them remains murky at best.

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Originally Posted by GWOW View Post
Reminds me of the people who bash the Yankees and say they're flawed. Been hearing it since 1994.
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Originally Posted by Lindberg Cheese View Post
Yup, any team with a SS without range, a closer with one pitch, a catcher who cant catch is flawed and bound for long- term failure.
Yes, let's equate criticizing a franchise that hasn't won in 40 years with criticizing a franchise that does almost nothing but win. Makes sense to me.

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07-07-2013, 03:34 PM
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Kershaw
 
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I never get the Knicks/Rangers vs. Yankees comparison. One franchise is the greatest in all of professional sports while the other two have been toiling in mediocrity.

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