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07-05-2013, 11:18 PM
  #476
JonQuixote
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Originally Posted by GreatKeith View Post
Have they made the playoffs in the last 4 years? No? Hmm...

Also I'm pretty sure they finished behind us the season before last. Bobrovsky plays out of his mind and suddenly they're "turning things around".
Every team is incompetent, until they're not. Then they're models. Or vice versa.

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07-05-2013, 11:21 PM
  #477
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Gordon is better at every facet of the game than Horcoff sans skating. He put up more points, less penalties, same hits, way better faceoff % and he's a better PKer.

Joensuu is a bit of a wildcard but he hits like a train and he is massive, he is definitely an upgrade on toughness because I've seen him demolish people, he is not afraid to take the body.

Ference is our #3 defenceman he just bumped N.Schultz, J.Schultz, Fistric, Potter, Larsen, Belov, Klefbom down the lineup.

There are still lots of depth C's available if we can't land Grabovski which I am hoping we do.

Our team is better than last season already, stop acting like we just somehow got worse trading in Horcoff for a better and cheaper #3 and adding some quality defence. Take into account progressions of our young players and you'll see you are making yourself look silly stating this team is worse.
He's also coming from Tippett's system in Phoenix. I remember the last time we signed a 3rd line C who was 'great on faceoffs' coming out of that system - and that C scored 40 points the year before the Oilers got him.

For the record, I like the acquisition of Gordon, but the team still hasn't re-signed Gagner and even with him, the C depth is very, very weak. One injury and Arcobello is on the big club.

The team is also moving to a much, much tougher division this year. As it stands, I don't see the team improving on where they finished in the standings last year.

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07-05-2013, 11:21 PM
  #478
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Originally Posted by JonQuixote View Post
Every team is incompetent, until they're not. Then they're models. Or vice versa.
Well I'm not considering the Jackets a "model" until they make some noise.

Just missing the playoffs isn't that.

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07-05-2013, 11:27 PM
  #479
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We should push hard for Grabovski assuming he's not asking for anything close to 5 million
This. I know he wasn't in their original plans going into UFA day (who saw that coming) but now that he's out there, jump on it. Adapt. I can't believe he's not signed yet, wonder if that means he's asking too much or still trying to get over his 'ex'.

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07-05-2013, 11:27 PM
  #480
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Originally Posted by JonQuixote View Post
You said it yourslf - he's shown it his whole career. I would think a 33yo backup coming from a goalie friendly system (and who has had ample opportunity to prove himself as an Nhl starter in the past) is an unrealistic bet to get noticeably better, but has real potential to slip. Because that is going to happen at some point, right?
1 million - 1 year. Really? Who ****ing cares as maybe MacT has other moves in mind.

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07-05-2013, 11:28 PM
  #481
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Originally Posted by Baggers View Post
He's also coming from Tippett's system in Phoenix. I remember the last time we signed a 3rd line C who was 'great on faceoffs' coming out of that system - and that C scored 40 points the year before the Oilers got him.

For the record, I like the acquisition of Gordon, but the team still hasn't re-signed Gagner and even with him, the C depth is very, very weak. One injury and Arcobello is on the big club.

The team is also moving to a much, much tougher division this year. As it stands, I don't see the team improving on where they finished in the standings last year.
Lets be clear as well that Gordon was third Center on a bad Phoenix club this year that struggled even with one of the best coaches in the business and that Gordon hasn't been any good on the PK either year he has played in phoenix. His PK numbers are bad in Phoenix. I shudder at what they might look like here.

Said it before is we've alreadly recruited Smithson, Belanger, Fraser who looked like very reasonable bottomsix defensive C's elsewhere but who did jack**** here. Quite probably because these guys are products of good teams that play better anytime they happen to be located on a good team. They are not the cause of the team in question being a good team.

The worst team in the NHL doesn't get over the hump with the guys we signed today.

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07-05-2013, 11:41 PM
  #482
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Question. I have heard from many posters that Oilers realistically HAVE to make the playoffs. Realistically Edmonton, Calgary, & Winnipeg all have the dubious position of being, last choice teams in terms of Free agents choosing to go there. So..........Is it reasonable to think that any improvement year after year is a positive going forward?

I would love to see them in the playoffs this coming year, but I just don't see them as an attractive location for high end F.A's for a couple more years without moving out 1 of our top 5. I am going too cheer hard regardless of the players in the roster spots that are hard to fill. I just don't get the holier than thou, " I could GM this team better than MacT" attitude. Guess I should just try to buy that unicorn my grand daughter wants, and move to California.

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07-05-2013, 11:50 PM
  #483
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Originally Posted by Everest View Post
This all seems to feel more more like a "plan" is transpiring than it ever did under Tambellini.
This is my feeling as well. I look forward to seeing the team responds and start playing to its potential.

It's way too easy to second-guess and criticize deals (or failed transactions) without full knowledge. Some people here seem to thrive on this type of negativity and probably will be even more miserable as the team starts winning.

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07-05-2013, 11:58 PM
  #484
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
The worst team in the NHL doesn't get over the hump with the guys we signed today.
On a completely unrelated note , the Florida Panthers' day consisted of Joey Crabb and Mike Mottau.

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07-06-2013, 12:02 AM
  #485
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Barely.

Really as it stands I don't know we're a better lineup than we had in January.

Like Lowe occasionally used to do MacT buys into stocking shelves but with quantity as much as quality. We don't necessarily need a lot of additions we need effective ones. The thinking that help is on the way through a plurality doesn't get
it done. Theres only so many slots in the lineup and a lot of spots obviously filled.

My own take is I'd rather make a splash with two ringer vets then half a dozen add-ons that don't make an appreciable difference. Ference is useful. Gordon, possibly, I don't know how well he'll play now outside of Phoenix.

Trouble is if we do now find some quality vets we end up having to make some room and deal some of the addon help we just acquired.
Honestly after the Horcoff trade they are behind last year. Anyone who thinks Gordon is better than Horcoff is not dealing with reality. Horcoff was a 1/2C tweener who could play tough opposition. Slowed down by age and injury but he was still really important to the team as seen while he was out with injury. Gordon was a fringe NHLer before last year and now maybe a 3/4C tweener. The Coyotes system hides a lot of stuff so we will see. Even with a broken hand last year Horcoff outscored Gordon on a PPG and GPG basis. There is no comparison unless you blindly hate Horcoff which many do. Adding Gordon to Horcoff would have improved the team but a straight swap is a negative. So a position of weakness is even worse through subtraction, RNH has a busted wing, Gagner is less than ideal, and the rest are fringe players.

The wingers are still totally unbalanced with lots of skill but little size in the top 6. No big LW appeared today in spite of the whale hunt that failed once again. Bottom 6 wingers are MSP plus a collection of old, lame and fringe players that they hope can emerge. The disaster that is the Oilers bottom 6 doesn't really lend itself to that so this has improved little until their lottery tickets prove otherwise.

Defense is marginally improved but the main problem was the top pair and adding a 4/5 guy on the downside like Ference doesn't help much. He's best suited to a 3rd pair role from now on because of age and will probably decline quickly. So defense is better but not much and not in the right place.

Goaltending actually saw the only value signing in terms of price and term with Labarberra yet people hate the deal. Go figure. I'm not wild about the guy and I suspect they brought him in as a kiss and makeup deal for Dubnyk (they are training partners). Dubnyk is UFA next summer but the GM gave him a vote of marginal confidence at the end of the season and then tried to trade for someone to replace him at the draft. Think he's in love with the org right now? Not likely and he won't likely believe a word they say from here forward. Dubnyk going UFA is very possible now and there is no one in the system capable of replacing him.

So all I see accomplished so far is a modest improvement on defense (but at the wrong position), a downgrade at center, no new size on the wings, and a new danger point created in goal for no good reason. This team is lottery bound with any injury to a top pair dman, top 6 center or starting goalie. Hemsky's marginal value has been obliterated by the GM flapping his gums and most of the potential suitors have filled their dance cards (BOS, OTT, PIT CLB). To be honest I think the Oilers thought they could obtain Schneider at the draft, trade Coburn for Dubnyk and MSP, and get Clarke/Boyd at UFA. But Vancouver played them for a chump and the whole thing blew up in their faces. Sure they have cap room but that doesn't help on the ice and anyway I bet the owner wants to be about $10 million under the cap to line his jeans a bit better.

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07-06-2013, 12:10 AM
  #486
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Originally Posted by taunting canadian View Post
On a completely unrelated note , the Florida Panthers' day consisted of Joey Crabb and Mike Mottau.
If a tree falls in a forest...

Who cares what the Florida Panthers do or if they even exist?

We're talking a team here with high priced tickets, that wants a city paid arena, and we get this year after year?

If the Oilers are a twobit operation in a twobit market charging 20bucks a ticket like lots of lesser NHL markets then we should have no complaints, we get what we get. Kind of like the 90's.

But this is one of the hottest big ticket entertainment markets in NA now. No excuse to have watch dreck year after year.

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07-06-2013, 12:13 AM
  #487
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
If a tree falls in a forest...

Who cares what the Florida Panthers do or if they even exist?

We're talking a team here with high priced tickets, that wants a city paid arena, and we get this year after year?

If the Oilers are a twobit operation in a twobit market charging 20bucks a ticket like lots of lesser NHL markets then we should have no complaints, we get what we get. Kind of like the 90's.

But this is one of the hottest big ticket entertainment markets in NA now. No excuse to have watch dreck year after year.
You're right but it doesn't have to make sense. Look at Toronto for the last 40 years. Ballard model

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07-06-2013, 12:16 AM
  #488
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
If a tree falls in a forest...

Who cares what the Florida Panthers do or if they even exist?

We're talking a team here with high priced tickets, that wants a city paid arena, and we get this year after year?

If the Oilers are a twobit operation in a twobit market charging 20bucks a ticket like lots of lesser NHL markets then we should have no complaints, we get what we get. Kind of like the 90's.

But this is one of the hottest big ticket entertainment markets in NA now. No excuse to have watch dreck year after year.
Then paying customers that are part of this board, and are the most adamant about this should stop their support of this team. I have read you say you don't attend either as much or not at all anymore. They should follow your example. I live in southern Alberts and can only make 1 or 2 games a year and like everyone else, disappointed in a loss. But, I will not completely start the whining game.

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07-06-2013, 12:17 AM
  #489
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Originally Posted by Verdadero View Post
You're right but it doesn't have to make sense. Look at Toronto for the last 40 years. Ballard model
It made sense for Ballard. He could have hire trained monkeys and skating bears, open doors, and charge top ticket prices for junk endlessly in a market that never bottomed.

It isn't just, but his profit margin was just fine. I think its terrible, but its terrible fans allow it and support it when they do.

If you think a shark has jumped, maybe limit the support. Been obvious for awhile.

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07-06-2013, 12:18 AM
  #490
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Originally Posted by Njoy Oilers View Post
Then paying customers that are part of this board, and are the most adamant about this should stop their support of this team. I have read you say you don't attend either as much or not at all anymore. They should follow your example. I live in southern Alberts and can only make 1 or 2 games a year and like everyone else, disappointed in a loss. But, I will not completely start the whining game.
Oh stop stirring things up dagnabbit.

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07-06-2013, 12:18 AM
  #491
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Originally Posted by Njoy Oilers View Post
Then paying customers that are part of this board, and are the most adamant about this should stop their support of this team. I have read you say you don't attend either as much or not at all anymore. They should follow your example. I live in southern Alberts and can only make 1 or 2 games a year and like everyone else, disappointed in a loss. But, I will not completely start the whining game.
Amen to that

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07-06-2013, 12:20 AM
  #492
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Originally Posted by Verdadero View Post
No the onus is on people who either do not know what a President of Hockey Ops does or refuses to believe that a person with that title actually controls the hockey side of the business. It's pretty self-explanatory. Some execs hold both PHO and GM titles but the President approves all important decisions. How much more clarity do you need? DO you want me to walk down to Kingsway and ask Lowe if he is PHO? I think he will say yes.

Kevin Lowe was Tambellini's boss and he's Mactavish's boss and it very much in control of the organization. To say otherwise completely and utterly ignores how hockey team are managed and practical reality.
Still waiting for that example of puppetry. Back up your statement. Otherwise it's just empty tinfoil hat ramblings

Also, isn't every team like that then? Because I'm sure evert team has a president of hockey ops.

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07-06-2013, 12:20 AM
  #493
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Oh stop stirring things up dagnabbit.
Just learning to tell it like it like it is without the board infractions, isn't easy.

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07-06-2013, 12:26 AM
  #494
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Of course, if MacT turns around and signs Grabovski, Raymond, and Boyes/Cleary tomorrow, re-signs Gagner at 4.25/year, deals Hemsky, and somehow finds a way to pick up Coburn (maybe for 2014/15 draft picks and/or prospects?), I'm far more optimistic about the Oilers' chances next year.

I'd fell comfortable with a line-up of:

Hall - Nuge - Eberle
Raymond - Gagner - Yakupov
Paajarvi - Grabovski - Boyes/Cleary
Joensuu - Gordon - Brown
Lander

Coburn - Petry
Smid - J. Schultz
Ference - Larsen/Potter/N. Schultz/Belov (possibly deal Schultz?)

Dubnyk
LaBarbera

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07-06-2013, 12:40 AM
  #495
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Originally Posted by Tad Mikowsky View Post
Still waiting for that example of puppetry.
The ENTIRE Tambellini period in case you missed it or do you also beleive he was really in charge

I'll take my tinfoil hat over your blue pill acceptance of the last 7 years of so-called hockey management that has destroyed the legacy of this team.

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07-06-2013, 12:40 AM
  #496
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If a tree falls in a forest...

Who cares what the Florida Panthers do or if they even exist?
Well, somebody brought them up.

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07-06-2013, 12:58 AM
  #497
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I will say one thing about these signings (at least in regards to the actual NHL players).

Coyote fans and Bruin fans genuinely seemed to like Ference and Gordon and are sad to see them go. Both think they will do well for us.

Guys like Hordichuk, Eager, and Belanger most were glad they were gone when we signed them.

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07-06-2013, 01:23 AM
  #498
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Honestly after the Horcoff trade they are behind last year. Anyone who thinks Gordon is better than Horcoff is not dealing with reality. Horcoff was a 1/2C tweener who could play tough opposition. Slowed down by age and injury but he was still really important to the team as seen while he was out with injury. Gordon was a fringe NHLer before last year and now maybe a 3/4C tweener. The Coyotes system hides a lot of stuff so we will see. Even with a broken hand last year Horcoff outscored Gordon on a PPG and GPG basis. There is no comparison unless you blindly hate Horcoff which many do. Adding Gordon to Horcoff would have improved the team but a straight swap is a negative. So a position of weakness is even worse through subtraction, RNH has a busted wing, Gagner is less than ideal, and the rest are fringe players.
Your analysis ignores the salary cap. Gordon + $2.5M more cap room > Horcoff.

The Oilers now have a little under $14M in salary cap space and a lot of flexibility for the remaining holes in the roster to fill.

Gordon is also much better on the dot than Horcs. 56.5% to 49% last year.

How's that for a couple of non-Horcoff hating reason to like Horcs out and Gordon in.

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07-06-2013, 01:26 AM
  #499
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Your analysis ignores the salary cap. Gordon + $2.5M more cap room > Horcoff.

The Oilers now have a little under $14M in salary cap space and a lot of flexibility for the remaining holes in the roster to fill.
Cap space is useless if you can't use it. MacT needs to make some trades for that 2.5 to matter.

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07-06-2013, 01:30 AM
  #500
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Your analysis ignores the salary cap. Gordon + $2.5M more cap room > Horcoff.

The Oilers now have a little under $14M in salary cap space and a lot of flexibility for the remaining holes in the roster to fill.

Gordon is also much better on the dot than Horcs. 56.5% to 49% last year.

How's that for a couple of non-Horcoff hating reason to like Horcs out and Gordon in.
I like Horcoff-out/Gordon-in if the team actually uses some of that salary cap space to bring in another legitimate NHL center and fill some of the rest of the gaping holes on the team.

So far, MacT's 'bold' off-season resembles Tambo's off-season a few years back where they brought in Eager, Belanger, Hordichuk, and Barker and allowed the team to enter the season with gaping holes.

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