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Old
07-06-2013, 03:54 PM
  #126
WeThreeKings
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I don't know who said complete turn-over.

And any pro scouting staff should've seen that Desharnais was a product of the two wingers he played with and a function of a bottom place team rather than a legitimate top line center. Play-offs further proved that point.

There have been times when being a fan of this team is embarrassing, mostly during the Houle days, definitely after the Gomez trade, but cheering on a team that had Desharnais falling down during every puck battle was one of the most humiliating things I've seen in hockey. It was down right pathetic. How they can sit there and not have a solution for this mistake yet is beyond me. I'd rather play Kaberle on our PP and buy him out if I had the choice.

Finally, I don't see where they think the PK turn-around is going to come from. Are they banking on DD and Briere to somehow become competent in the face-off circle? Those are two problems areas that can be fixed with shrewd moves for cheap in the off-season on the market. We don't have to sign a big name and cripple our cap space, but we can certainly address the fundamental needs of this team and not shoot ourselves in the foot every time we take a penalty because we simply can't kill it or win the face-offs in crucial moments (Zibanejad kick-in goal anyone?)

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Old
07-06-2013, 03:59 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
Thing is that the smart, reasonable, thoughtful poster are drowned out by the constant drone of the whiners, posting, almost like they're copy- pasting their posts 'trade this loser', 'trade that midget'. This board's poll generally represent that.

Thus team is a work in progress, GMMB took a team with decent players and ****** prospects. No amount of overpaying for players in trades or FA will change that. accute drafting and trading will change that, and that takes time.

Anyways, I spend half my time on here raging on the bipolar *****es on here so whatever. it is the inability of you know which posters to sit back and think before mashing their ******** fingers on their ******** keyboards to tell their ******** opinions tht drives me up the wall. I just wish they were less numerous...

Anyways, judging by this year's FA frenzy, this team is in good hands.

Patence *****es
you should take a chill pill

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07-06-2013, 04:02 PM
  #128
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The people that are *****ing because Bergevin didn't go insane during the Free Agent market are either ignorant or fools.

Do you actually believe that the Habs are close to a cup? Gainey stripped Montreal from its prospects. Bergevin is filling it back up. We're building the team through the draft. The summer Bergevin will actually get someone "good" from the FA market, is when he'll think that we're actual contenders. Not clowns that'll just fight for a spot in the playoffs.

You just saw what some "slightly" better players cost this summer... Why the hell are you still asking for Bergevin to spend his money? So you can ***** again? The Montreal Canadien SUCK. We'll need around 2-3 maybe even 4 years before we actually get somewhere. Be realistic and think before you post.

There are 29 other teams in the league, with the same needs. Plus, once you've got a big D, unless he sucks, you don't let him go. My god...

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07-06-2013, 04:07 PM
  #129
sandysan
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Originally Posted by danisonfire View Post
Can I eat him? I think the problem is extreme exaggeration for both sides. We get that you are not happy, but this is the stop being negative thread! I have been defending this trade and if it goes south I will say the same thing I do now. It is a 2 year contract that does not hurt our ability to sign players or free agents if we need too. We will be under the cap floor before resignings next year start. If it works, great, if it doesn't oh well. Glad we didn't sign a few of the other 5-7 year contracts. Those could have seriously hurt us in the long term. In the short term we are not really a cup contender anyways.
Do you deny that he is soft ? Again, if you think we will be better, please tell me by what metrics? You can choose which ever ones you like.

And making a bad deal that is not the worst deal is not something to be celebrated, we were not forced to sign db or clarkson. The question is does that 8 million make us a better team, and if yes, how.

And I think its really telling that instead of saying what ASSETS he brings to the team or to suggest which metrics we can use to demonstrate his added value, you chose to criticize the adjective I chose to describe his level of softness, which it appears you don't disagree with.

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Old
07-06-2013, 04:09 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Stripper View Post
The people that are *****ing because Bergevin didn't go insane during the Free Agent market are either ignorant or fools.

Do you actually believe that the Habs are close to a cup? Gainey stripped Montreal from its prospects. Bergevin is filling it back up. We're building the team through the draft. The summer Bergevin will actually get someone "good" from the FA market, is when he'll think that we're actual contenders. Not clowns that'll just fight for a spot in the playoffs.

You just saw what some "slightly" better players cost this summer... Why the hell are you still asking for Bergevin to spend his money? So you can ***** again? The Montreal Canadien SUCK. We'll need around 2-3 maybe even 4 years before we actually get somewhere. Be realistic and think before you post.

There are 29 other teams in the league, with the same needs. Plus, once you've got a big D, unless he sucks, you don't let him go. My god...
Getting useful players =/= going insane
Getting worthless players = going insane

Dumping Cole because he is old and overpaid and then getting a scrub like Briere is dumb as hell and speaks of lack of direction.

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Old
07-06-2013, 04:14 PM
  #131
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I'm about to burst with joy because we are on the cusp of getting bigger:

1. Sign Jagr (trade one of our smurfs to make this happen)
2. Parros
3. Tanarsky
4. Fournier

I know the latter two don't have much of a chance to make the team, but at least we are addressing this need (to follow up the brilliant drafting earlier).

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07-06-2013, 04:21 PM
  #132
Lionel Mandrake
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The D can't be rebuilt in one offseason, but I hope we do add some pieces. The book is still out on Price in the playoffs, so we need to insulate him with better dmen for the time being.

Diaz, Bouillion, Gorges, Markov....talk about easy to play against.
I agree this D is problematic. I like them all as individual players but the mix is not right. Hopefully Tinordi changes this somewhat.

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07-06-2013, 04:22 PM
  #133
danisonfire
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
Do you deny that he is soft ? Again, if you think we will be better, please tell me by what metrics? You can choose which ever ones you like.
This is subjective, it also is asking two different things: Is he soft (subjective) and will we be better (subjective) there is no clear cut metric either way to subjective questions. If your subjective opinion is that Briere will not do well next season, there is nothing wrong with that.

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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
And making a bad deal that is not the worst deal is not something to be celebrated, we were not forced to sign db or clarkson. The question is does that 8 million make us a better team, and if yes, how.
Moot point and subjective. You can think this is a bad deal, it doesn't make it 100% a bad deal before a player steps on the ice. Saying how things will turn out before they happen is a subjective opinion and not 100% fact.

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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
And I think its really telling that instead of saying what ASSETS he brings to the team or to suggest which metrics we can use to demonstrate his added value, you chose to criticize the adjective I chose to describe his level of softness, which it appears you don't disagree with.
He is over a PPG in the playoffs in his career, 52 points in 45 playoffs games (during the last 4 years), and 13 points in 11 playoffs games that last time the flyers made it there. These are objective. If you want to argue Briere will not perform at this level in the future (subjective), all the power to you. There is nothing that says he will. Seems like a low risk, high reward gamble.

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07-06-2013, 04:29 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by TennisMenace View Post
I'm about to burst with joy because we are on the cusp of getting bigger:

1. Sign Jagr (trade one of our smurfs to make this happen)
2. Parros
3. Tanarsky
4. Fournier

I know the latter two don't have much of a chance to make the team, but at least we are addressing this need (to follow up the brilliant drafting earlier).
Why do we trade for jagr, isn't he not under contract?

Parros will play 5 to 6 min every other game and he will be on the 4th line.
It may not be "the " answer but if it takes the pressure off Prust it's at least in the right direction. I'd rather spend the one million for something we do need than the 4 for something we don't.

I don't think we see Tarnasky.

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07-06-2013, 04:42 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Poulet Kostopoulos View Post
But the negatives were right, right around this time last year: Habs didn't make the playoffs and were bottom feeders all season long

... oh wait.


Seriously though, the negatives will persist up until the very last second before Habs win the Cup. That's what some Habs fans do best. They want their Cup right here right now. They don't understand that building a team needs several years. They don't understand that signing Briere for 2 years is just a stopgap until the youngsters reach maturity, those youngsters that will form the core. By then, Danny boy, whom some people here have been mad about, will be a non-factor in the equation.
Well you can ask Lafleurs Guy and DAChampion but I was one of the ones claiming last year we had a good team and that we shouldn't try to tank. We still do have a good team but we're not going to take the next step without shrewd moves by the GM. Bergevin hasn't shown me he's capable of doing that, in fact he's been making mis-steps quite consistently and so now I'm starting to worry.

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07-06-2013, 04:45 PM
  #136
One Less Louise
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Originally Posted by Hawkguy View Post
If Desharnais can produce on the Powerplay again, you're looking a 60-point center, minimum. Then you can think about trading him for value.

I laugh my ass off at people who (not you) that ***** and moan and beg for Desharnais to be traded because he sucks. But then say we should trade him for "such and such player".

If Desharnais sucks, why would St. Louis trade Chris Stewart for him?

Obviously I'm in the boat that doesn't think Desharnais sucks (he had a weak year no doubt) but the fact that he put up a 48-point pace despite playing like I've never seen him before surprises me. He's always going to lose pucks and get beat on board battles more than he wins. But last year, his passing was off, his puck control was off - he just seemed off. His low production had nothing to do with being small and everything to do with not playing with the crispness that he has always played with. Oh, and his puck reception was putrid last year. He had trouble accepting a pass from just about everyone.

Anyway, I'm 99% sure he'll bounce back to a 55-65 point pace. At which point, if you want to trade him to improve our team - do it. Don't trade him when his value is low because he had a bad year during a lockout shortened season.
Good post

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Old
07-06-2013, 04:51 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by danisonfire View Post
He is over a PPG in the playoffs in his career, 52 points in 45 playoffs games (during the last 4 years), and 13 points in 11 playoffs games that last time the flyers made it there. These are objective. If you want to argue Briere will not perform at this level in the future (subjective), all the power to you. There is nothing that says he will. Seems like a low risk, high reward gamble.
He's also a -13 in his last 22 playoff games so is he really a net benefit? Not too mention I'd rather my playoff help to have actually won the cup rather than just put up points while losing.

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07-06-2013, 04:52 PM
  #138
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What is foolish is expecting a rookie GM to reinvent the game, to completely change free agent's outlook of Montreal in just little over a season.

When Bergevin was signed, I wasn't stoked. I wasn't displeased either.

Like any mature person would do, I decided to wait and see what he could do in the span of at least 3 to 5 seasons. Despite not liking the fact that he seems really good at putting the media on his side, and pandering to them somewhat, I still wanted to wait and see. Still doing that right now.

The way many fans are reacting right now is more a sign of who they are as a person, rather than any indication to Bergevin's overall aptitudes as a GM.

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Old
07-06-2013, 04:53 PM
  #139
overlords
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
I don't know who said complete turn-over.

And any pro scouting staff should've seen that Desharnais was a product of the two wingers he played with and a function of a bottom place team rather than a legitimate top line center. Play-offs further proved that point.

There have been times when being a fan of this team is embarrassing, mostly during the Houle days, definitely after the Gomez trade, but cheering on a team that had Desharnais falling down during every puck battle was one of the most humiliating things I've seen in hockey. It was down right pathetic. How they can sit there and not have a solution for this mistake yet is beyond me. I'd rather play Kaberle on our PP and buy him out if I had the choice.

Finally, I don't see where they think the PK turn-around is going to come from. Are they banking on DD and Briere to somehow become competent in the face-off circle? Those are two problems areas that can be fixed with shrewd moves for cheap in the off-season on the market. We don't have to sign a big name and cripple our cap space, but we can certainly address the fundamental needs of this team and not shoot ourselves in the foot every time we take a penalty because we simply can't kill it or win the face-offs in crucial moments (Zibanejad kick-in goal anyone?)
At a personnel level, the PK is a non-issue. We have mostly the same horses we did for the 2nd best PK a few years ago. The problem is therrien coming in and messing it all up. Bright ****ing idea.

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07-06-2013, 04:56 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
What is foolish is expecting a rookie GM to reinvent the game, to completely change free agent's outlook of Montreal in just little over a season.

When Bergevin was signed, I wasn't stoked. I wasn't displeased either.

Like any mature person would do, I decided to wait and see what he could do in the span of at least 3 to 5 seasons. Despite not liking the fact that he seems really good at putting the media on his side, and pandering to them somewhat, I still wanted to wait and see. Still doing that right now.

The way many fans are reacting right now is more a sign of who they are as a person, rather than any indication to Bergevin's overall aptitudes as a GM.
So I take it that you think Gauthier was judged too quickly since he didn't get his 3-5 years?

It's been a little over a year now it might be too early to pass final judgement but surely you've started leaning one direction. Which one is it?

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07-06-2013, 04:59 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by danisonfire View Post
This is subjective, it also is asking two different things: Is he soft (subjective) and will we be better (subjective) there is no clear cut metric either way to subjective questions. If your subjective opinion is that Briere will not do well next season, there is nothing wrong with that.



Moot point and subjective. You can think this is a bad deal, it doesn't make it 100% a bad deal before a player steps on the ice. Saying how things will turn out before they happen is a subjective opinion and not 100% fact.



He is over a PPG in the playoffs in his career, 52 points in 45 playoffs games (during the last 4 years), and 13 points in 11 playoffs games that last time the flyers made it there. These are objective. If you want to argue Briere will not perform at this level in the future (subjective), all the power to you. There is nothing that says he will. Seems like a low risk, high reward gamble.
Just wondering, who were his linemates when he put up those prodigious playoff points?

And if your entire argument is predicated on the assertion that Shrimpy Briere being soft is subjective, have a good time trying to defend that one. Perhaps he's objectively 6'6 as well.

So far the best people who support the deal have to offer are 1) he was good once. 2) signing him was not as bad as other deals ( that we were under no obligation to do). 3) it might accelerate the moving of another small forward when gio has a no trade and DD just signed an extension and No one wants anything to do with him and 4) he might magically turn back the clock reverse his current decline in productivity based on perhaps eating some French Canadian magical beans.

If he's good it would be a pleasant surprise, if he's bad its gonna be somebody else's fault. What happened to no excuses?

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07-06-2013, 05:03 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
At a personnel level, the PK is a non-issue. We have mostly the same horses we did for the 2nd best PK a few years ago. The problem is therrien coming in and messing it all up. Bright ****ing idea.
Well we have never really replaced Gill who was widely considered one of the best PKers in the league.

We can reasonably expect some improvement on the PK since it's something that requires continuous practice and the condensed schedule last year maybe hurt us. Also playing Diaz on the PK over Subban was bound to hurt us.

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07-06-2013, 05:04 PM
  #143
danisonfire
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He's also a -13 in his last 22 playoff games so is he really a net benefit? Not too mention I'd rather my playoff help to have actually won the cup rather than just put up points while losing.
"He's also a -13 in his last 22 playoff games"
This is objective. It happened.

"So is he really a net benefit?"
This is subjective, many players with negative +/- can still be positive. He may have got all his points on the PP. It does worry me a bit, but I would have to look deeper than simple +/- numbers like I do for players I watch more frequently.

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07-06-2013, 05:08 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by danisonfire View Post
"He's also a -13 in his last 22 playoff games"
This is objective. It happened.

"So is he really a net benefit?"
This is subjective, many players with negative +/- can still be positive. He may have got all his points on the PP. It does worry me a bit, but I would have to look deeper than simple +/- numbers like I do for players I watch more frequently.
I suggest you do take a deeper because his PP points are nothing to write home about and when compared to his teammates he's near the bottom of the +/- category.

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07-06-2013, 05:10 PM
  #145
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I'm not downcast. My only disappointment was the inability to trade up in the first round. However, Fucale and the added size pleased me. We'll just have to wait until some of the prospects are ready to take a regular turn.

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07-06-2013, 05:20 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
So I take it that you think Gauthier was judged too quickly since he didn't get his 3-5 years?

It's been a little over a year now it might be too early to pass final judgement but surely you've started leaning one direction. Which one is it?
None.

It's much too early to tell.

One thing I can tell you though, is that Bergevin has the same duties to fulfill as did Gauthier and Gainey, mainly, making sure the Habs are competitive first and foremost. People will always hate the GMs in Montreal, without ever coming to terms with the underlying motive which is always set by ownership. Habs ownership doesn't come cheaply, and the ultimate goal is to get a higher yield for profit. But when it comes to team building, this ownership prerogative has all of those GMs agreeing on the sake of building through the draft, which is quite frankly what most here agree on too. So in the end, it's much more about which players are drafted, which are filtered out after some development, and the yield of talent you get after the process. That process takes time. Half the team is under 25, and some old players are on the way out. I see a lot of change coming, it's inevitable. We'll have a better idea of Bergevin's capacity as GM after that.

Oh and as far as the team for next season is concerned, I think they will fair better than what most doomsayers are proclaiming.

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07-06-2013, 05:22 PM
  #147
danisonfire
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Just wondering, who were his linemates when he put up those prodigious playoff points?
They have most likely changed over the 108 playoff games and 109 points. If you can find the answer, it will help strenghten a subjective opinion. It still can never be a 100% thing like all subjective things.

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And if your entire argument is predicated on the assertion that Shrimpy Briere being soft is subjective, have a good time trying to defend that one. Perhaps he's objectively 6'6 as well.
No, objectively Briere is listed as 5"10, not 6'6. He would have to grow several inches for this to become objective.

Shrimpy Briere being soft is subjective. If you feel he is soft, that is your subjective opinion which you are more than welcome to make. Objectively Tie Domi was also listed at 5"10. I would subjectively say he was a very tough player. Taller players are not 100% always tougher, so this is not objective.

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So far the best people who support the deal have to offer are

1) he was good once.
Subjectively, he has been good more than once in his career. It would depend on your definition of good which is not universal.

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2) signing him was not as bad as other deals ( that we were under no obligation to do).
Subjectively, in my opinion he does not seem as bad as other deals made over the past few days. If you subjectively disagree, that is alright as well. If you subjectively feel we should have signed 0 players, that is alright as well. None of us will ever be correct 100% of time time.

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it might accelerate the moving of another small forward when gio has a no trade and DD just signed an extension and No one wants anything to do with him
I never said this, I would have to look at their opinions and compare them to the other side to make my own subjective opinion on the topic.

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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
4) he might magically turn back the clock reverse his current decline in productivity based on perhaps eating some French Canadian magical beans.
I am not french Canadian, I will have to research further into the French Canadian magical beans in order to see how relevant they are to Briere.

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07-06-2013, 05:27 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by danisonfire View Post
This is subjective, it also is asking two different things: Is he soft (subjective) and will we be better (subjective) there is no clear cut metric either way to subjective questions. If your subjective opinion is that Briere will not do well next season, there is nothing wrong with that.



Moot point and subjective. You can think this is a bad deal, it doesn't make it 100% a bad deal before a player steps on the ice. Saying how things will turn out before they happen is a subjective opinion and not 100% fact.



He is over a PPG in the playoffs in his career, 52 points in 45 playoffs games (during the last 4 years), and 13 points in 11 playoffs games that last time the flyers made it there. These are objective. If you want to argue Briere will not perform at this level in the future (subjective), all the power to you. There is nothing that says he will. Seems like a low risk, high reward gamble.
Just wondering, who were his linemates when he put up those prodigious playoff points?

And if your entire argument is predicated on the assertion that Shrimpy Briere being soft is subjective, have a good time trying to defend that one. Perhaps he's objectively 6'6 as well.

So far the best people who support the deal have to offer are 1) he was good once. 2) signing him was not as bad as other deals ( that we were under no obligation to do). 3) it might accelerate the moving of another small forward when gio has a no trade and DD just signed an extension and No one wants anything to do with him and 4) he might magically turn back the clock reverse his current decline in productivity based on perhaps eating some French Canadian magical beans.

If he's good it would be a pleasant surprise, if he's bad its gonna be somebody else's fault. What happened to no excuses?

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07-06-2013, 05:29 PM
  #149
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
Just wondering, who were his linemates when he put up those prodigious playoff points?

And if your entire argument is predicated on the assertion that Shrimpy Briere being soft is subjective, have a good time trying to defend that one. Perhaps he's objectively 6'6 as well.

So far the best people who support the deal have to offer are 1) he was good once. 2) signing him was not as bad as other deals ( that we were under no obligation to do). 3) it might accelerate the moving of another small forward when gio has a no trade and DD just signed an extension and No one wants anything to do with him and 4) he might magically turn back the clock reverse his current decline in productivity based on perhaps eating some French Canadian magical beans.

If he's good it would be a pleasant surprise, if he's bad its gonna be somebody else's fault. What happened to no excuses?
You double posted this (copy+paste?), I replied directly above you.

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07-06-2013, 05:31 PM
  #150
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Originally Posted by Grant McCagg View Post
He signed a UFA in Briere who has been one of the leading playoff scorers the past four years. He traded for one of the league's heavyweights. These moves will make the team "tougher to play against". He still has another 100 days or so to make further changes if he can. Take off the half empty whining glasses and relax for a bloody change.

This place is literally a joke. The Habs were second in the eastern conference...you expected a complete turnover? The day trading began..you wanted him to "give away" Desharnais just for the sake of getting rid of him? Now that's asset management! Glad that you and all of the other whiners on here have nothing to do with the club...it would be run into the ground with Houle panic-type moves. I'll say this one more time - 100 days before the season starts.
Briere getting up there, plus scored playoff points with Philly some of that is they are big club. He won't have that luxury in Montreal. Size, or lack of is how teams been exploiting us in playoffs.

I would have pursued Ryan stronger. If I did sign Briere fine but would looking into dealing a small center. Likely package Plekanec with a Diaz type for top pairing d-man. Ryan be good with Galchenyuk, give us 2 good offensive lines. Adding a top defenseman would bring our defense up to Cup caliber. DD would probably be flipped for late round pick.

Parros okay, he's 13th forward, necessary for sure but will only dress against tougher clubs then only playing a few minutes a game.

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