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Old
07-07-2013, 02:52 AM
  #251
DAChampion
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With respect to Ozymandias, sometimes the fanbase is indeed more intelligent than the management. A good example is the Scott Gomez trade. Most of the fanbase was against it, management was for it, and Ozymandias said that we should give management a chance.

Your most point, that we should be patient and have faith in the management and stop overanalyzing things, is an old song that you've been chanting for years. Some of us have lost patience.

[RDS] Chris Higgins traded to Rangers for Scott Gomez
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=656981

Higgins+McDonagh for Scott Gomez - Pt.II (All trade Related Posts Here)
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=657223

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias
Hoooooooly phoque en Alaska

I just came home and saw the news on RDS.

My first reaction is WTF?????? Like most of you.

I'm pissed that Higgy is gone. I'm pissed that McD is gone.

And looking at the trade, I first thought that Bob had lost his mind.

But then I calmed down, let my emotions aside and thought about the trade thouroughly.

Gomez won the cup, played a lot of games in the playoffs with a good PPG average close to 0,75. His point totals in regular season isn't stellar, but playing in New York probably didn't help. But his contract's cap hit is ugly for the production he brings. The good thing is, he lifted his NTC to come here, and his contract has only 5 seasons left to it. If he can hit back PPG seasons, he'll be worth it.

Now for the price to pay on the trade..... Valentenko... well he turned his back on the Habs for his family, so his value was quite minimal. Higgins's value was at an all-time low, the pick that drafted him would be worth more today than his present value. I guess it was a question of necessity, as we could've kept him to maybe/probably see his value go back up again. Anyway, its the McD part I don't get. Unless the Habs didn't think he would amount to what they believed he would become.

Only the future will tell who won out of this trade. No one can make any premature conclusions about this one. Those who do, have left their brains hanging somewhere.

But like someone else said, Gainey could always make an offer sheet to Higgins, just so at least the Rags have to pay a higher salary to Chris.

Gomez will probably fit well under Martin.

...

I just heard Gomez's first comments about the trade on RDS.... He called Montreal the Mecce of hockey... he's already won points in my book.


Last edited by DAChampion: 07-07-2013 at 03:04 AM.
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Old
07-07-2013, 06:07 AM
  #252
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I think they were probably just too tall... Once you get over 5 foot 8 you aren't allowed in the organization.

What a load of BS.

Our GM made an idiotic move and folks here are telling it like it is. A week ago we had several threads here talking about how we could get bigger and which smurf we should move. Our GM said we had to get bigger.

Now we go out and sign the prototypical type of player that we're trying to get rid of. And yet you sit there and spew this BS about how its about the posters? Yeah right...

Therrien has messed things up without a doubt. Not playing Subban there made no sense at all. However, we are lacking the horses here. We really do need a shutdown guy here who can clear the crease. Tinordi will help but we need another guy.

Say hello to Nathan Horton as well.

Of course you are 100% right.

It's a deflection to try to blame the poster rather than look at the moves themselves. I don't always agree with you and I may not agree with all the details here but you are dead on right in the big picture. We've made a lot of mistakes in the past and just when you think we've learned from them, we make them again.


Well, we're not a contending team but maybe we could've been. Add a shutdown bluelliner and a big winger... we'd have been in much, much better shape. Maybe we're not a cup winner this year but we'd be closer.

Instead we do the opposite...

But if he scores 10 goals we'll never hear from you guys again. It will be "well I never said he'd have a great year..." But if he has a great year, we'll never hear the end of it.

Taking no position is a great one to take. That way you can claim to be right either way.

There is every reason in the world to hate this move. It goes directly against what everyone has wanted for years and that includes our own GM. You keep trying to change the topic and make it personal on the posters. Give it up.

If our GM doesn't want to be criticized, then he should stop making senseless moves. Most of us were open minded (even optimistic) about his hiring. Just like we were with Gainey and the last guy. But they ****ed up. I'm not going to apologize for ripping them when they make dumb moves. And if it weren't for Timmins this team would be royally ****ed right now.

All these idiotic moves that we've made over the years. You always come here and attack the posters. And when the moves blow up it's all "well, I never said they'd be good..."

Have the balls to take a position and defend it. Was the Briere signing good? Did you actually like it? If it blows up will you say that you were wrong? Because if not, then stop chirping about posters complaining about these kinds of moves.
Bravo . Best post in this thread. It's easy to never have a position. It's all much more immature to attack posters personally than to debate the acquisitions.


Last edited by piqued: 07-07-2013 at 01:10 PM. Reason: qep
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Old
07-07-2013, 06:10 AM
  #253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
With respect to Ozymandias, sometimes the fanbase is indeed more intelligent than the management. A good example is the Scott Gomez trade. Most of the fanbase was against it, management was for it, and Ozymandias said that we should give management a chance.

Your most point, that we should be patient and have faith in the management and stop overanalyzing things, is an old song that you've been chanting for years. Some of us have lost patience.

[RDS] Chris Higgins traded to Rangers for Scott Gomez
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=656981

Higgins+McDonagh for Scott Gomez - Pt.II (All trade Related Posts Here)
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=657223
I'd call it luck more than anything, pretty much everyone is bashing the moves made by Habs management, every move...

this time, the so called fans got lucky and were right in their bashing...

bashed for hiring MT
bashed for the way he handled the P.K. negos
bashed for trading Cole away (although this one didnt last long)
bashed for acquiring Halpern
bashed for giving a 5th rounder for Drewiskie
bashed for not acquiring a big physical D at trade deadline
bashed for acquiring Briere
bashed for not being able to land Lecavalier
bashed for acquiring Parros
bashed for not acquiring BIG and overpaid wingers trough FA
bashed for not acquiring a big physical D trough FA


considering the "realists" do most of what I've listed, they're bound to be right at some point... yet it doesnt make them any smarter than the Zamboni driver at the Bell Centre.

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07-07-2013, 06:12 AM
  #254
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
Bravo . Best post in this thread. It's easy to never have a position. It's all much more immature to attack posters personally than to debate the acquisitions.
and it's way easier to have one that consist on bashing everything.

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07-07-2013, 06:15 AM
  #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
and it's way easier to have one that consist on bashing everything.
I agree that for any particular position there will be bashers, but I don't agree that there are numerous individuals bash everything.

People like to say that "hfboards is so stupid ignorant etc" in spite of the fact they spend a lot of time here. But actually, I find that there are a number of knowledgeable posters, who really do know what they're talking about.

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07-07-2013, 06:17 AM
  #256
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I agree that for any particular position there will be bashers, but I don't agree that there are numerous individuals bash everything.

People like to say that "hfboards is so stupid ignorant etc" in spite of the fact they spend a lot of time here. But actually, I find that there are a number of knowledgeable posters, who really do know what they're talking about.
a small number yes.

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07-07-2013, 06:18 AM
  #257
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
The context of his quote was very clear...
His posts are similar in context every time. Prop himself up as the old wise one and put down others while he never takes a position and therefore is never wrong.

This is a board to discuss the habs, we have different opinions, some don't just swallow everything management does every time as a positive. The Briere signing was completely stupid imo, however, I on't think the contract will hinder us much in the grand scheme of things, but the idea should be to improve, not to sign guys who won't hinder us much.

Those who like the deal. I'll ask a few questions and give my opinions on them.

Does Danny Briere address a need?

Absolutely not

Is Danny Briere completely redundant?

Yes

Was he even remotely approaching your wish list prior to the UFA signing period?

Not even a thought

Do you think he's an upgrade on Ryder?

Not even close

Do think at this stage in his career he is an upgrade on DD or Gionta?

Nope

Does he have game breaking talent still?

Nope

Will his hard-work and dedication and veteran presence rub off on younger players?

Quite possibly, but nearly impossible to measure

Will he sell Shirts?

Most likely

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07-07-2013, 06:24 AM
  #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
a small number yes.
Yes, but isn't that the best case scenario?

That's how it is in real life if you're very lucky: a small number of experts, a larger number of higher-intermediates and mediocrities, and a comparable or greater number of lunatics, illiterates, and sheep.

That's how HF boards is, and we should count ourselves lucky and stop bashing the community, because sometimes in life we don't even have the small number of experts.

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07-07-2013, 06:25 AM
  #259
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
and it's way easier to have one that consist on bashing everything.
I don't bash everything, when I like a move I say so, when it turns out the player or signing I liked didn't work out, I admit I was off.

I liked a lot of things over the years that we have done, especially Trevor Timmins body of work. I often praise him as the best Amateur scout in all of hockey. I give credit when I feel it is warranted. Gainey in his early years was very good, after his tragic moment in his life his mind wasn't in it anymore and it showed. Pierre Gauthier made more poor decisions in one season than I can remember. Bergevin has made ome questionable moves this year, none that are likely to hurt us much going forward though, having said that, I don't want a gm that doesn't hurt us, I want a GM to build a winner. I don't see us taking many steps towards that goal.

The core is in place and will likely contend in 2-3 years. We have a great nucleus of young up and coming players and for that reason, the Briere signing isn't entirely terrible, but if he thinks this was a roster upgrade in any way, his player evaluations skills are suspect imo, it does very little to improve the club. I don;t think MB was looking to upgrade the roster with this acquisition though, he's merely a stop gap until he thinks we're ready. So for that, I give him a pass on this one.

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07-07-2013, 06:28 AM
  #260
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
Does Danny Briere address a need?

Absolutely not
[/B]
before I reply, let it be known that I REALLY dislike Danny boy (he could win the Vezina, Norris and Rocket trophies all in the same year and I'd still dislike him)...

With that said, you can't awnser the question properly without knowing the intentions, not what you hope MB intentions are, but what they are in reality...

example : MB plans on unloading a few vets (Plekanec, Markov whatever) for youngsters, picks or prospects... and while those youngsters develop he though that acquiring a "warm body" could be of some use, it'll only cost money since we didnt have to give assets for him.

knowing that, do you still think it doesnt make sense to acquire a guy like D. Brière (doesnt have to be him, anyone else of that ilk) ?




example : after acquiring Briere, MB make signings and trades that shows his real intentions are to build a team that can win NOW

knowing that, do you still think signing Briere made sense and will help the team win now ?


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07-07-2013, 06:34 AM
  #261
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Yes, but isn't that the best case scenario?

That's how it is in real life if you're very lucky: a small number of experts, a larger number of higher-intermediates and mediocrities, and a comparable or greater number of lunatics, illiterates, and sheep.

That's how HF boards is, and we should count ourselves lucky and stop bashing the community, because sometimes in life we don't even have the small number of experts.
I'm no stat expert, but I'm pretty sure the lunatic and illiterates would be right as often as the so called expert on most subject given a large enough numbers of people on each side.

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07-07-2013, 06:38 AM
  #262
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
I'm no stat expert, but I'm pretty sure the lunatic and illiterates would be right as often as the so called expert on most subject given a large enough numbers of people on each side.
Sheep are going to be right if they can pick the right shepherd, but we're off-topic :-)

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07-07-2013, 06:44 AM
  #263
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Sheep are going to be right if they can pick the right shepherd, but we're off-topic :-)
considering you're the one who brought the idea that sometimes people in here are smarter than Habs management, not really

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07-07-2013, 06:44 AM
  #264
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
I don't bash everything, when I like a move I say so, when it turns out the player or signing I liked didn't work out, I admit I was off.

I liked a lot of things over the years that we have done, especially Trevor Timmins body of work. I often praise him as the best Amateur scout in all of hockey. I give credit when I feel it is warranted. Gainey in his early years was very good, after his tragic moment in his life his mind wasn't in it anymore and it showed. Pierre Gauthier made more poor decisions in one season than I can remember. Bergevin has made ome questionable moves this year, none that are likely to hurt us much going forward though, having said that, I don't want a gm that doesn't hurt us, I want a GM to build a winner. I don't see us taking many steps towards that goal.

The core is in place and will likely contend in 2-3 years. We have a great nucleus of young up and coming players and for that reason, the Briere signing isn't entirely terrible, but if he thinks this was a roster upgrade in any way, his player evaluations skills are suspect imo, it does very little to improve the club. I don;t think MB was looking to upgrade the roster with this acquisition though, he's merely a stop gap until he thinks we're ready. So for that, I give him a pass on this one.
I wasnt talking about you in particular.

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07-07-2013, 06:50 AM
  #265
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In the last presser you got a sense that MB is frustrated with some of the people who think making headway in trades is an easy thing. GM's don't just trade you good players, not without asking for your best players in return. They are all looking for the same characteristics and traits for their teams.

Take a look at the trade proposal thread and you'll see that 99 percent of people simply don't get this fact. Bergevin is not dealing with an X-box or 29 Mike Milburys, this is competitive business.

So far Bergevin has done a competent job. He has his roster under contract and positioned well for future free agent dealings, he's not panicked his way into giving up draft picks or young projects (hint: the Christian Thomas deal was a good hockey trade), and he's addressing problems that exist (Size at the draft, future of the goaltending position, coaching help to assist a struggling star player). He's doing addition by addition and not doing sideways moves that lead nowhere.

Add all that to a starting point that is a team that was tops in their division, and I hazard a guess we are going to like the results in 5 years.

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07-07-2013, 06:54 AM
  #266
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
In the last presser you got a sense that MB is frustrated with some of the people who think making headway in trades is an easy thing. GM's don't just trade you good players, not without asking for your best players in return. They are all looking for the same characteristics and traits for their teams.

Take a look at the trade proposal thread and you'll see that 99 percent of people simply don't get this fact. Bergevin is not dealing with an X-box or 29 Mike Milburys, this is competitive business.

So far Bergevin has done a competent job. He has his roster under contract and positioned well for future free agent dealings, he's not panicked his way into giving up draft picks or young projects (hint: the Christian Thomas deal was a good hockey trade), and he's addressing problems that exist (Size at the draft, future of the goaltending position, coaching help to assist a struggling star player). He's doing addition by addition and not doing sideways moves that lead nowhere.

Add all that to a starting point that is a team that was tops in their division, and I hazard a guess we are going to like the results in 5 years.
looks like ottawa's GM ''xbox proposal'' worked to get ryan

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07-07-2013, 07:01 AM
  #267
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Originally Posted by marchabsfan View Post
looks like ottawa's GM ''xbox proposal'' worked to get ryan
good on him, for making an equivalent move (trading Galchenyuk or Gallagher for Ryan) MB would have been crucified.

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07-07-2013, 07:07 AM
  #268
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Originally Posted by marchabsfan View Post
looks like ottawa's GM ''xbox proposal'' worked to get ryan
It took the loss of Alfreddson, Silfverberg, and 2 first rounders to make that happen.

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07-07-2013, 07:11 AM
  #269
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
His posts are similar in context every time. Prop himself up as the old wise one and put down others while he never takes a position and therefore is never wrong.

This is a board to discuss the habs, we have different opinions, some don't just swallow everything management does every time as a positive. The Briere signing was completely stupid imo, however, I on't think the contract will hinder us much in the grand scheme of things, but the idea should be to improve, not to sign guys who won't hinder us much.

Those who like the deal. I'll ask a few questions and give my opinions on them.

Does Danny Briere address a need?

Absolutely not

Is Danny Briere completely redundant?

Yes

Was he even remotely approaching your wish list prior to the UFA signing period?

Not even a thought

Do you think he's an upgrade on Ryder?

Not even close

Do think at this stage in his career he is an upgrade on DD or Gionta?

Nope

Does he have game breaking talent still?

Nope

Will his hard-work and dedication and veteran presence rub off on younger players?

Quite possibly, but nearly impossible to measure

Will he sell Shirts?

Most likely
I've noticed a group of guys who prefer to attack the poster rather than debate.

I assume they do this for one of 3 reasons:
1. They grow weary of the debate so they turn on the debater
2. They are immature or rude personality types
3. They honestly believe it is not a fans right to question any decision made because they believe we fans cannot have more knowledge than management and thus should keep our opinions to ourselves

Either of the above only discourage meaningful conversation which I thought is a main reason why people come here. No one is perfect and above inspection.

TM

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07-07-2013, 07:19 AM
  #270
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
It took the loss of Alfreddson, Silfverberg, and 2 first rounders to make that happen.
My thinking too. I'm not so sure Ottawa won this trade. I think what they gave up was significant.

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07-07-2013, 07:25 AM
  #271
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You think his goal is to get us there... I was looking forward to the press conference specifically for him to tell us that was his goal, and that the timeframe was October and not in 2 years. I hope he's clear in some other PC/interview.
Erik, there is one fact that keeps me grounded whenever I think MB is not moving fast enough- we went from near last place to first place in his one year of being at the helm.

This by itself allows for me to cut him some slack. I think those Philly rumors are signs that he is trying to get us bigger and better. The draft helped me see this.

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07-07-2013, 07:30 AM
  #272
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
good on him, for making an equivalent move (trading Galchenyuk or Gallagher for Ryan) MB would have been crucified.
No absolutely not.

Silfverbeg is not a top3 overall neither a calder finalist.

We dont have a roster comparable for him. So if we give, per exemple, a gallagher it is not combined with the same 'package' : B1 prospect and first.

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07-07-2013, 07:34 AM
  #273
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
It took the loss of Alfreddson, Silfverberg, and 2 first rounders to make that happen.
This is modified reality.

If next year we loose Gionta to UFA. And trade Leblanc and a first for a player. We traded Leblanc and a first. Not Gionta and two firsts.

Its easy to make things looks worst.

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07-07-2013, 08:16 AM
  #274
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Originally Posted by SnapVirus View Post
This is modified reality.

If next year we loose Gionta to UFA. And trade Leblanc and a first for a player. We traded Leblanc and a first. Not Gionta and two firsts.

Its easy to make things looks worst.
They still lost SBerg who was to be a bonafide Top 6 winger and two firsts for a Top 3 winger who at the very best replaces Alfredsson(I think Alfie in his prime was twice the player Ryan is). They are still down SBerg and two firsts.

Hell the Kessel trade was almost better.

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07-07-2013, 08:17 AM
  #275
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Originally Posted by SnapVirus View Post
This is modified reality.

If next year we loose Gionta to UFA. And trade Leblanc and a first for a player. We traded Leblanc and a first. Not Gionta and two firsts.

Its easy to make things looks worst.
But the reality of the situation is that your team lost those players. I don't think he meant that that was what was given in the exchange. Ottawa lost a lot and gained Bobby Ryan. They more or less stood pat. They might have even lost ground. They really gotta hope spezza stays healthy and Z has a great year.

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