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07-07-2013, 08:23 AM
  #276
DAChampion
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Originally Posted by JGRB View Post
They still lost SBerg who was to be a bonafide Top 6 winger and two firsts for a Top 3 winger who at the very best replaces Alfredsson(I think Alfie in his prime was twice the player Ryan is). They are still down SBerg and two firsts.

Hell the Kessel trade was almost better.
In hindsight the Kessel trade is not that bad. Seguin "lacks character" and Doug Hamilton is a question mark.

If Kessel resigns with Toronto, and Hamilton becomes a 2nd pairing dman or worst, then it's yet more vindication for Brian Burke.

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07-07-2013, 08:28 AM
  #277
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
In hindsight the Kessel trade is not that bad. Seguin "lacks character" and Doug Hamilton is a question mark.

If Kessel resigns with Toronto, and Hamilton becomes a 2nd pairing dman or worst, then it's yet more vindication for Brian Burke.
Of course.

That's what I'm saying though, the Sens gave up 2 firsts and a 2nd for Ryan. Except the second is already a roster NHL player.

I don't insider Ryan as good as Kessel either, yeah he's big but Phil is far more dynamic.

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07-07-2013, 08:38 AM
  #278
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Originally Posted by marchabsfan View Post
looks like ottawa's GM ''xbox proposal'' worked to get ryan
You do realize that Ottawa lost that trade right?

Way over paid. Long term, that deal is brutal, all 3 assets given up are great assets. Hope Ryan leaves as a UFA in 2 years, that would be just a complete garbage trade lol

Type of trade needed when you are just missing that 1 piece, which Ottawa is far from. Stupid trade, but glad they did it , will hurt them long term.

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07-07-2013, 08:49 AM
  #279
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I totally dont agree with that.

Noesen is a PPG player in the OHL. He got hurt, but he regressed. Hes the prototype 3rd liner/ career ahler. Here on HFBoards every prospect is ranked as the next Crosby, Toews, Perry, Lucic. But in reality, its almost never the case.

Silfverberg got a good 1st season. But the closest we have to him in our organisation is Collberg. Silfverberg is really close to Collberg, the only thing he has on him is age. Hes 4 years older. Stats are similar when they were the same age.

So lets say it again.


Would you have trade :
Collberg + Leblanc (18ov) + 1st in 2014 for Ryan?

Silfverberg + Noesen (20ov) + 1st in 2014 for Ryan?


Theres a major difference between Gallagher (calder nominee and Galchenyuk 3rd overall, future superstar) then Silfverberg and Noesen. Sorry but Noesen is nothing more than those late first rounders picks that most of the time, never blow up.

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07-07-2013, 08:57 AM
  #280
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Originally Posted by SnapVirus View Post
I totally dont agree with that.

Noesen is a PPG player in the OHL. He got hurt, but he regressed. Hes the prototype 3rd liner/ career ahler. Here on HFBoards every prospect is ranked as the next Crosby, Toews, Perry, Lucic. But in reality, its almost never the case.

Silfverberg got a good 1st season. But the closest we have to him in our organisation is Collberg. Silfverberg is really close to Collberg, the only thing he has on him is age. Hes 4 years older. Stats are similar when they were the same age.

So lets say it again.


Would you have trade :
Collberg + Leblanc (18ov) + 1st in 2014 for Ryan?

Silfverberg + Noesen (20ov) + 1st in 2014 for Ryan?


Theres a major difference between Gallagher (calder nominee and Galchenyuk 3rd overall, future superstar) then Silfverberg and Noesen. Sorry but Noesen is nothing more than those late first rounders picks that most of the time, never blow up.
I see what you're saying, but I don't agree with the comparables you made. All Ottawa players over Habs players you mentionned. And we probably don't agree on Ryan's value. 30 goal scorer with Perry and Getzlaf, but let's see what he does without them. I'm not a big fan of Ryan. He's been ridding the other 2 guys. Not saying he as no value, but I find that he's way overrated in general by most fans.

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07-07-2013, 09:03 AM
  #281
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Originally Posted by SnapVirus View Post
This is modified reality.

If next year we loose Gionta to UFA. And trade Leblanc and a first for a player. We traded Leblanc and a first. Not Gionta and two firsts.

Its easy to make things looks worst.
When you look at what Murray did with his team he's moved sideways over the course of the last week.

Going back to the Ryan deal, that was a hockey trade that most people think helped both teams. It isn't the deal of DD+2nd+Kristo for all 3 Calgary's first round picks, or some variation of that offer for Ryan, Yakupov, whoever. Those offers are modified reality and the xbox thinking I was referring to.

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07-07-2013, 09:11 AM
  #282
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
I'd call it luck more than anything, pretty much everyone is bashing the moves made by Habs management, every move...

this time, the so called fans got lucky and were right in their bashing...

bashed for hiring MT
bashed for the way he handled the P.K. negos
bashed for trading Cole away (although this one didnt last long)
bashed for acquiring Halpern
bashed for giving a 5th rounder for Drewiskie
bashed for not acquiring a big physical D at trade deadline
bashed for acquiring Briere
bashed for not being able to land Lecavalier
bashed for acquiring Parros
bashed for not acquiring BIG and overpaid wingers trough FA
bashed for not acquiring a big physical D trough FA


considering the "realists" do most of what I've listed, they're bound to be right at some point... yet it doesnt make them any smarter than the Zamboni driver at the Bell Centre.
I don't mind the MT signing, the hardball with Pk is gonna cost us longterm and is inexcusable, Ryder for Cole was to shed contract and Cole looked disinterested so good riddance, Halpern is what it is, Drewisky was a depth move but not what we needed but was cheap. Our defense could not clear anyone from the net so we were forced to throw tinordi to the lions in a sink or swim, briere does not address any need on the team, whereas Vinny would have but you can't force a guy to sign. I don't see anyone bashing the parros deal, we needed more grit but that deal stunk of a guy buying gas station flowers for his anniversary. Most people are fine with not chasing the big names but some FA deals were not awful and would have met a team need. We are STILL soft on D.

But the people who defend everything are so completely disingenuous, they base the trade on some imaginary hypothetical that of course works out. The briere deal is OK because we ARE going to get bigger we are going to get harder. It would be nice but how do you know this? At best the briere deal is contingently bad but I'm not criticizing the briere the next deal. If we don't get any tougher by trade the same people who said we can't get bigger or tougher by ufa because all the other GMs are looking for the same will say exactly the same thing, we tried. Then we will ice another completely undersized team and we will get pushed around again.

I'm not a Bellyacher and I'm not a better evaluator of talent than MB, but if the gm says his longterm plan is to get bigger and tougher and None of his deals ( with the exception of parrots which is at best too late) do this and one of the major ways to improve the team WITHOUT having to give up our young talent is wasted on Shrimpy Briere then perhaps, just perhaps blind trust may not be warranted.

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07-07-2013, 09:30 AM
  #283
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
I'd call it luck more than anything, pretty much everyone is bashing the moves made by Habs management, every move...

this time, the so called fans got lucky and were right in their bashing...

bashed for hiring MT
bashed for the way he handled the P.K. negos
bashed for trading Cole away (although this one didnt last long)
bashed for acquiring Halpern
bashed for giving a 5th rounder for Drewiskie
bashed for not acquiring a big physical D at trade deadline
bashed for acquiring Briere
bashed for not being able to land Lecavalier
bashed for acquiring Parros
bashed for not acquiring BIG and overpaid wingers trough FA
bashed for not acquiring a big physical D trough FA


considering the "realists" do most of what I've listed, they're bound to be right at some point... yet it doesnt make them any smarter than the Zamboni driver at the Bell Centre.
Well, this is a large and divergent fanbase so you are going to have differences of opinion. It's not like you have posters bashing every single one of these moves.

Maybe I am misrembering but I do not recall much bashing on the Halpern and Drewiske moves, I thought general consensus was the players filled a need and cost little or nothing to acquire. Same with Parros. Maybe he never plays a shift for us but we'll never miss Lefevbre so it's hard to hate the acquisition. Similarly, I think it would be hard to find too many people who think we should have outbid Tor/NJ to get Clarkson or Clowe, not sure how much bashing MB is getting for staying away from the July 5 mess.

I'd like to consider myself a realist (don't we all?) and of the moves you listed I was strongly against hiring MT (jury is still out, IMO), PK contract (still think this was not the right thing to have done), Cole trade (I was wrong), Briere signing and no big UFA D (still time to rectify this one). So I am 'bashing' about half of these moves, not most or all, and I suspect most of the posters framed as 'bashers' or 'haters' are in about the same boat.

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07-07-2013, 09:34 AM
  #284
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
But the reality of the situation is that your team lost those players. I don't think he meant that that was what was given in the exchange. Ottawa lost a lot and gained Bobby Ryan. They more or less stood pat. They might have even lost ground. They really gotta hope spezza stays healthy and Z has a great year.
So why didn't he also include picking up MacArthur?

MacArthur replaces Silfverberg and Ryan replaces Alfredsson. At worst they've made a lateral move. At best they've added size and toughness. And considering they were going to lose Alfredsson to retirement very quickly a lateral move is not that bad in any case.

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07-07-2013, 09:35 AM
  #285
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
I don't mind the MT signing, the hardball with Pk is gonna cost us longterm and is inexcusable, Ryder for Cole was to shed contract and Cole looked disinterested so good riddance, Halpern is what it is, Drewisky was a depth move but not what we needed but was cheap. Our defense could not clear anyone from the net so we were forced to throw tinordi to the lions in a sink or swim, briere does not address any need on the team, whereas Vinny would have but you can't force a guy to sign. I don't see anyone bashing the parros deal, we needed more grit but that deal stunk of a guy buying gas station flowers for his anniversary. Most people are fine with not chasing the big names but some FA deals were not awful and would have met a team need. We are STILL soft on D.

But the people who defend everything are so completely disingenuous, they base the trade on some imaginary hypothetical that of course works out. The briere deal is OK because we ARE going to get bigger we are going to get harder. It would be nice but how do you know this? At best the briere deal is contingently bad but I'm not criticizing the briere the next deal. If we don't get any tougher by trade the same people who said we can't get bigger or tougher by ufa because all the other GMs are looking for the same will say exactly the same thing, we tried. Then we will ice another completely undersized team and we will get pushed around again.

I'm not a Bellyacher and I'm not a better evaluator of talent than MB, but if the gm says his longterm plan is to get bigger and tougher and None of his deals ( with the exception of parrots which is at best too late) do this and one of the major ways to improve the team WITHOUT having to give up our young talent is wasted on Shrimpy Briere then perhaps, just perhaps blind trust may not be warranted.
Bergevin said that this team would be built through the draft. That is exactly what he is doing and is the only way that this team will get bigger while staying competitive. Big players that play meaningful minutes are extremely difficult to acquire without grossly overpaying as we have witnessed so far with the signing of lunch pail guys like Clarkson and Clowe.

He has done a great job so far and if the drama queens on this site would exercise a little patience they might just be pleasantly surprised.

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07-07-2013, 09:44 AM
  #286
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
Bergevin said that this team would be built through the draft. That is exactly what he is doing and is the only way that this team will get bigger while staying competitive. Big players that play meaningful minutes are extremely difficult to acquire without grossly overpaying as we have witnessed so far with the signing of lunch pail guys like Clarkson and Clowe.

He has done a great job so far and if the drama queens on this site would exercise a little patience they might just be pleasantly surprised.
Matt hendricks less than briere, twice the term plays 10 to 13 minutes a game, big and will bang and fight.
A much better deal than parros and more directed to an actual need.

It wasn't just clarkson/close and Horton available and if we had signed Hendricks even if people moaned its easy to see how he fits into the plan to get bigger and tougher, unlike shrimpy briere.

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07-07-2013, 10:42 AM
  #287
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
In hindsight the Kessel trade is not that bad. Seguin "lacks character" and Doug Hamilton is a question mark.

If Kessel resigns with Toronto, and Hamilton becomes a 2nd pairing dman or worst, then it's yet more vindication for Brian Burke.
I don't see the vindication thing. Burke was flat out wrong about the Leaf's core at the time of the Kessel trade. They needed to rebuild for 2 years before they started chasing RFA's.

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07-07-2013, 11:08 AM
  #288
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Originally Posted by SnapVirus View Post
No absolutely not.

Silfverbeg is not a top3 overall neither a calder finalist.

We dont have a roster comparable for him. So if we give, per exemple, a gallagher it is not combined with the same 'package' : B1 prospect and first.
A Galchenyuk did not go back the other way, nor would one have to have gone back the other way. Prospects, picks, maybe Gallagher... expensive but that's what would've been asked for.

It's a question of picking a direction (something that we've always had a problem with.) Either you start going for it and make this kind of trade or you rebuild. We try to do both at the same time and make it harder for ourselves.

If we'd rebuilt properly when Koivu and co. left then we'd be a lot further ahead. And Briere is more of the same. Even if he does put up points it doesn't matter. The guy is going to be eating easy icetime from our younger guys who would've scored those points anyway. He's completely redundant and more of what we already have too much of.

Ryan probably would've cost us Beaulieu and a first. I have a hard time seeing him command Gallagher, Beaulieu and a first. If that's what they asked then MB was right to walk away. I won't fault him for not getting this done because we don't know what the other side wanted. But he deserves to be blasted for getting Briere. Reeks of desperation and doing something for the sake of it. You miss out on Ryan and Vinny... or feel it's too expensive? Okay, no problem. Don't go and make a stupid move as some kind of perverse consolation prize though.
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Originally Posted by SnapVirus View Post
I totally dont agree with that.

Noesen is a PPG player in the OHL. He got hurt, but he regressed. Hes the prototype 3rd liner/ career ahler. Here on HFBoards every prospect is ranked as the next Crosby, Toews, Perry, Lucic. But in reality, its almost never the case.

Silfverberg got a good 1st season. But the closest we have to him in our organisation is Collberg. Silfverberg is really close to Collberg, the only thing he has on him is age. Hes 4 years older. Stats are similar when they were the same age.

So lets say it again.


Would you have trade :
Collberg + Leblanc (18ov) + 1st in 2014 for Ryan?

Silfverberg + Noesen (20ov) + 1st in 2014 for Ryan?


Theres a major difference between Gallagher (calder nominee and Galchenyuk 3rd overall, future superstar) then Silfverberg and Noesen. Sorry but Noesen is nothing more than those late first rounders picks that most of the time, never blow up.
That's probably a lot closer to what they would've demanded. Not sure they would've wanted Leblanc but there's no way that Galchenyuk is anywhere near what went back in this deal.


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 07-07-2013 at 11:16 AM.
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07-07-2013, 11:24 AM
  #289
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
Bergevin said that this team would be built through the draft. That is exactly what he is doing and is the only way that this team will get bigger while staying competitive. Big players that play meaningful minutes are extremely difficult to acquire without grossly overpaying as we have witnessed so far with the signing of lunch pail guys like Clarkson and Clowe.

He has done a great job so far and if the drama queens on this site would exercise a little patience they might just be pleasantly surprised.
It's not what he's doing though... He did the exact opposite. He went out on the free agent market and got the exact opposite of what we needed and what he said we needed. It is a total contradiction. So YES he deserves to get blasted for this.

As for exhibiting patience, sure... I'm not arguing that he should be replaced (and I don't think I've seen anyone else argue this) but the Briere move really shook the confidence that I had in him. This was a really stupid move.

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07-07-2013, 11:34 AM
  #290
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Even if he does put up points it doesn't matter. The guy is going to be eating easy icetime from our younger guys who would've scored those points anyway. He's completely redundant and more of what we already have too much of.
This. You want to build your team with the draft? Fine, let your youngster playmore, give them powerplay time. Sign some solid support player to adress weakness if you have to. Drop deadwood for picks or prospect. Don't ADD more ffs.

Desharnais was already taking PP time form the young guy, despite sucking at it last year. We now will have another DD v.2 problem in Briere. Not a chance if got 4m$ to be playing on the third or fourth line. He is going to take easy offensive start and powerplay time away from eller, chucky and gally. We are not talking about a first line center here, we are talking about a 35 years old player on a severe decline. At this point, he is pretty much a wash with desharnais. So much for building trought the draft..

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07-07-2013, 11:50 AM
  #291
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
The context of his quote was very clear...
Lol, and I said I didn't read this thread so didn't comment on whether or not either you or him fit what he said about critical thinking.
I.e. from a pure literal explanation of critical thinking, what he wrote is correct. As to the context in which he used it, as I didn't read 'said' context, I have no comment.

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07-07-2013, 11:55 AM
  #292
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Originally Posted by SnapVirus View Post


Would you have trade :
Collberg + Leblanc (18ov) + 1st in 2014 for Ryan?
I would do that trade.

I don't see L. Leblanc making any real impact at the NHL level, especially after his AHL season last year. He struggled since his injury, much like K.Chipchura did. Chipchura was supposed to pan out into so much more than what he is now, much like Leblanc.

S.Colberg looked great at the WJC and is an intriguing prospect. He won't be helping the Habs any time soon, though, as he returned to play in Europe. He is unfortunately another undersized winger, though, and we have an abundance of those, with more drafted this past draft.

The pick could be anywhere - how can you gauge a squad that goes from the bottom on the league to the top in one season? Which result was the fluke and which is closer to reality?

Bobby Ryan brings a lot more to Montreal than Danny Briere, who aside from his age and declining skills, snubbed his nose at this franchise and hung up the phone on the greatest player to ever play the game. But now that nobody else wants him, reverses on all that to ink a deal.

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07-07-2013, 12:03 PM
  #293
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Silfverberg >> Collberg at this point. More proven, already in the NHL, at least as much talent as Colbberg. Noesen also has more potential than Leblanc (because of hi down year, even if I think that he'll bounce back). It's not because two players have been selected around the same rank in different draft that they are equal in term of value.

It's not a good argument to say "Well, we just could have put those pieces together and we would have Ryan. Bergevin's soooo bad". Doesn't works this way.

To beat Ottawa's offer, we would have had to give something like Eller, Collberg and 1st in my opinion. But that's debatable.

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07-07-2013, 12:12 PM
  #294
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Originally Posted by Impossible Glory View Post
Silfverberg >> Collberg at this point. More proven, already in the NHL, at least as much talent as Colbberg. Noesen also has more potential than Leblanc (because of hi down year, even if I think that he'll bounce back). It's not because two players have been selected around the same rank in different draft that they are equal in term of value.

It's not a good argument to say "Well, we just could have put those pieces together and we would have Ryan. Bergevin's soooo bad". Doesn't works this way.

To beat Ottawa's offer, we would have had to give something like Eller, Collberg and 1st in my opinion. But that's debatable.
Its easy for Silfverberg to have more NHL impact, hes 4 years older. At the same age, their stats were almost identical. Thats why I said we dont have a ROSTER PLAYER comparable.

Noesen is nothing else than a throw in. He dosent have real value, like Leblanc. Do he has more 'potential' at this state? Yes. But what the **** is potential? Every player when they are drafted have potential, but only 5-10 1st rounders pan out. Noesen regressed and his closer to Leblanc's value, than Gallagher, man.

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07-07-2013, 12:20 PM
  #295
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How on earth did Ottawa get weaker? I think they got better. Alfie is not the same player anymore.

Koolaid Hab fans always trying to downplay the moves of other teams just to prop up the weak moves/non-moves of their GM.

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07-07-2013, 12:21 PM
  #296
Impossible Glory
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Originally Posted by SnapVirus View Post
Its easy for Silfverberg to have more NHL impact, hes 4 years older. At the same age, their stats were almost identical. Thats why I said we dont have a ROSTER PLAYER comparable.

Noesen is nothing else than a throw in. He dosent have real value, like Leblanc. Do he has more 'potential' at this state? Yes. But what the **** is potential? Every player when they are drafted have potential, but only 5-10 1st rounders pan out. Noesen regressed and his closer to Leblanc's value, than Gallagher, man.
Yeah, he's closer to Leblanc than Gallagher for sure, there's no doubt about it. But my point was more that you can't really come up with a similar offer (in term of value) and say it would have made it. For all we know, the Ducks could be in love with Silf and believe he'll be a 1st line forward for them within a year or two. There's much more in actually making a deal than putting guys with similar value to the ones in a real deal.

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07-07-2013, 12:28 PM
  #297
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Great post, my thoughts exactly.

Also, I'm sick and tired of hearing stuff like the guy responded earlier in the discussion. I said that I have more education (and so does a lot of other people here) than our management and I don't feel they're any smarter than us. The guy responded that I shouldn't watch the habs if I'm so educated. WTF is that..

I'm a physician, and there are many other on this board, and there's also engineers, economists, etc. It's not like we're dumb... We have the right to be critical of the mediocre product we've had for years. Seriously, I'm watching Bergevin and I'm not really convinced the guy's a genius.
great post my friend , calling out the truth that others cant accept

lets look at an example of patience and doing it the right way

The Blues have patiently drafted and built a good hockey team , we can all agree to that

they are a legit #1 center away from contending and Pieterangleo is close to being a stud on D , they have good young pieces to work with

did they spend foolishly on Bozak ? Ribeiro ? to fill thier #1 need

no they paid Roy a good center 1 year to add some depth and hope he can make a contribution down thye middle

in other words they didnt make a long term committment on the wrong player

we have serious holes in the size and d department and committed 4 and 2 years to the wrong players in dd and Briere , they arent gonna change our fortunes

neither is Roy but he fills a need for a center short term , our signings fill no need

I have no issue with Briere if we didnt have Pleks , Eller , and Chuckie

our D is swiss cheese and we got bich slapped by Ottawa , WTF is Parros going to do for us when he might play every second game and be benched come playoff time


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07-07-2013, 12:35 PM
  #298
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Originally Posted by Impossible Glory View Post
Yeah, he's closer to Leblanc than Gallagher for sure, there's no doubt about it. But my point was more that you can't really come up with a similar offer (in term of value) and say it would have made it. For all we know, the Ducks could be in love with Silf and believe he'll be a 1st line forward for them within a year or two. There's much more in actually making a deal than putting guys with similar value to the ones in a real deal.
agreed my friend Ryan would of cost us Eller Collberg and a first minimum and that may not have been enough cause Eller doesnt have Ryans hands and Anaheim wanted a goal scorer in return.

r u seriously going to throw in a first next year when we are in a dogfight to get in the playoffs in this new format , there is no way we have the second seed come playoff time in a full season and Detroit to deal with

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07-07-2013, 12:40 PM
  #299
WestIslander
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We need to make changes, we cannot be positive until we get size and toughness, right now, we are among the smallest teams in the league.

1) Trade Desharnais, Markov, Moen and Diaz
2) Acquire Coburn, Talbot and Perron

Pacioretty - Plekanec - Gionta
Bourque - Briere - Perron
Galchenyuk - Eller - Gallagher
Prust - White - Parros

Gorges - Subban
Coburn - Emelin
Tinordi - Bouillon

Price
Budaj

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Old
07-07-2013, 12:40 PM
  #300
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
How on earth did Ottawa get weaker? I think they got better. Alfie is not the same player anymore.

Koolaid Hab fans always trying to downplay the moves of other teams just to prop up the weak moves/non-moves of their GM.
exactly , this was a great trade ,a top 5 PF at 25 years old locked up for 2 more years and can be resigned as many players come off thier books by then

plus thye still have Zibanajed , Pumpel , etc ..

solid deal by Murray , didnt cost him a top core guy at all , and Alfie got love him but at 40 no big loss other than media and fan support

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