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07-04-2013, 05:18 PM
  #26
vorky
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btw, why is not Kölner Haie in ET?

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07-04-2013, 05:30 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dfire View Post
This all reminds me of the discussions about whether intelligent extraterrestrial life exists or not.

Some people want to believe that there is someone out there somewhere who is willing to pay the bills. But if there is this someone, why isn't Torpedo Leipzig shooting for the Gagarin cup yet? I guess I'm a sceptic (but I do believe in aliens).
Of course, you can be right.

Lets have a look to KHL´s history.

Finland

It was revealed that Karpat Oulu had offer to join KHL in 2008. Why did not join? Not ready...and federation/IIHF was against it.

There was rumours about Espoo Blues a year or two ago. Did not happen, reason as with Oulu?

Now, Jokerit is going to join. Federation supports it.

Central Europe

Reports about Karlovy Vary in 2008/09 - did not happen, federation/IIHF against it.

A year later, Lev Hradec, cz federation against. Then attempts with Lev Poprad, svk federation against. A year later, Lev PP joined. And now Slovan and Lev Praha in KHL.

You know, IIHF and federations were against KHL, it took 4 or 5 yrs but now IIHF is pro-KHL expansion and some federations allowed their clubs to join. As I know swedish and german federation are still against, but who knows? Btw, KHL was/is in talks with 4 DEL clubs.

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07-05-2013, 02:00 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
btw, why is not Kölner Haie in ET?
In the last years, we had some financial problems and they didn't want to spend much money in the pre season.

Now that we are financially healthy again, they'd like to play in the ET, and have said that to the public. I don't know why they don't play ET yet, but I think they're a likely candidate in the near future.

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07-05-2013, 02:13 AM
  #29
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Here we are, financial problems. I have just put this club to KHL´s list of candidates.

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07-05-2013, 02:14 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
Of course, you can be right.

Lets have a look to KHL´s history.

Finland

It was revealed that Karpat Oulu had offer to join KHL in 2008. Why did not join? Not ready...and federation/IIHF was against it.

There was rumours about Espoo Blues a year or two ago. Did not happen, reason as with Oulu?

Now, Jokerit is going to join. Federation supports it.

Central Europe

Reports about Karlovy Vary in 2008/09 - did not happen, federation/IIHF against it.

A year later, Lev Hradec, cz federation against. Then attempts with Lev Poprad, svk federation against. A year later, Lev PP joined. And now Slovan and Lev Praha in KHL.

You know, IIHF and federations were against KHL, it took 4 or 5 yrs but now IIHF is pro-KHL expansion and some federations allowed their clubs to join. As I know swedish and german federation are still against, but who knows? Btw, KHL was/is in talks with 4 DEL clubs.
The question remains that funding has to come from somewhere.

The existing pro hockey clubs in Germany rely heavily on local sponsorship deals. I don't see these sponsors investing more money in a project with less exposure.

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07-05-2013, 03:18 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dfire View Post
The question remains that funding has to come from somewhere.

The existing pro hockey clubs in Germany rely heavily on local sponsorship deals. I don't see these sponsors investing more money in a project with less exposure.
Money was not/is not/will not be a problem. Or do you think that Gazprom and co. does not have power/influence to lure some german/global sponsors, especially in Germany? It is not condition that sponsor must search for profit from the beginning, it is not and never was a condition, KHL does not work like that NOW. Look at Jokerit, there are sponsors which did not support hockey/clubs in SM-Liiga but they can do it in KHL because of russian (not only oil) market. Jokerit had budget of 8M euro, does the club/local sponsors have potencial to increase budget for 15-25M euro? Of course not, nobody cares about small local sponsors, there are other guys... guys having connection with Gazprom and co. There is not better option for such deal (finding sponsor) than Germany, country which industrial gigants see Russia as no.1 market. It all depends on politics, especially minister of finance, the current one is not ideal for KHL´s expansion into Germany. Therefore we dont see german club yet, but this can change very quickly.

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07-05-2013, 03:32 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
Money was not/is not/will not be a problem. Or do you think that Gazprom and co. does not have power/influence to lure some german/global sponsors, especially in Germany? It is not condition that sponsor must search for profit from the beginning, it is not and never was a condition, KHL does not work like that NOW. Look at Jokerit, there are sponsors which did not support hockey/clubs in SM-Liiga but they can do it in KHL because of russian (not only oil) market. Jokerit had budget of 8M euro, does the club/local sponsors have potencial to increase budget for 15-25M euro? Of course not, nobody cares about small local sponsors, there are other guys... guys having connection with Gazprom and co. There is not better option for such deal (finding sponsor) than Germany, country which industrial gigants see Russia as no.1 market. It all depends on politics, especially minister of finance, the current one is not ideal for KHL´s expansion into Germany. Therefore we dont see german club yet, but this can change very quickly.
You are most likely correct, that it will happen eventually. The German market may not be so big hockey wise, but for many KHL sponsors it should be very interesting to get exposure in Germany and they will do a lot to get that done.

Like you say, it will not happen right now, over night, and it needs to be planned very carefully, because if you don't start it the right way it will not last.
Meaning you will need some popular figures to get involved with this. Popular in Germany (and there are few when it comes to hockey), you are going to need to have a TV-deal in place including some exposure on Free-TV (and they won't pay much) and you will need a strong marketing campaign beforehand introducing the KHL to Germany to generate some kind of interest for this league, because right now there is next to none.

As far as locations go, there is one advantage that Berlin would have over all the others, I think. There are a lot of people who originally came from Russia and other countries with KHL-teams, living in Berlin, who might be much more receptive to the whole venture.

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07-05-2013, 03:59 AM
  #33
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I agree with you Maverick41.

It was reported that KHL/Timchenko/Rotenberg negotiated for a year with Jokerit before they announced entrance. As we know, KHL tried to lure other finnish clubs since 2008/09 (many reports, all failed).

The same in central Europe - all reports failed, Karlovy Vary, Hradec.. but then Lev from Hradec/Poprad came and here we are - KHL is in Slovakia/Czech rep.

Germany? I have heard about Leipzig´s since 2010 or so. Is it coincidence? No, Russians tried to lure some new/current club, but have failed. I am sure that there is a job with some german club/s now, the same like with Jokerit was. It took a year with Jokerit, it can take a year/more in Germany. I am sure that guys, working on this mission, know about things you named (marketing, tv, etc). It wont happen overnight, but I believe it will happen one day.

Europe wants European League/Champions League. KHL wants 2 or 3 euro clubs. IMO there is a deal among IIHF/KHL, KHL will support EL/CL but IIHF/federations will allow their clubs to join KHL. KHL has stronger position in this "battle" because Europe can not create EL/CL without KHL (if I am wrong, why there is not a CL/EL?) and Russians know it. On the other hand, status quo (no CL/EL) is good for KHL, because KHL can lure one or two clubs and beleive me, there are clubs willing to join KHL (as Harkimo said: there is not an option in Europe for great league, KHL is only one option for Jokerit). So Europe has to fullfill KHL´s conditons - change international calendar, allow lets say Eisbären etc to join KHL ... that is a deal, political deal. Will be interesting to follow it.

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07-05-2013, 06:22 AM
  #34
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I think you underestimate the loyalty of German fans to their traditions. Germans care more about their team, their identity and history than for the level of competitiveness.

Look at Hannover, they got a DEL team (which has just sold its license to Schwenningen) but they already had a team in the 2nd tier league. (Hannover Indians).

Attendance in the las couple of years:

2009/10: Scorpions: 5.074 Indians: 3.040
2010/11: Scorpions: 4.353 Indians: 3.033
2011/12: Scorpions: 3.847 Indians: 3.015
2012/13: Scorpions: 3.114 Indians: 2.831

Sure, the Scorpions had more people to their games, but the difference isn't as big as it should be, if you're arguing that a better league draws a better crowd, too.

I don't think that any fanebase in the DEL would accept playing against teams far away which they have no history/rivalries with and would accept the fact that it's unreasonable expensive to go to away games.

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07-05-2013, 06:32 AM
  #35
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I have another reactions from german hockey fans. Yes, loyalty is there but Germans are pro-international competitions as well. Look at Eisbären, nobody cares about ET in Europe, but fans in Berlin come to games? What is different among playing Jokerit in ET and Jokerit in KHL? I dont say that all fans are the same, but Eisbären is a great example, fans follows international games of the club.

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07-05-2013, 11:58 AM
  #36
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Another point one might have to consider is:

Say, there is a sponsor like Gazprom, that puts a lot of money into a german team. What happens, if the team wants to leave the KHL after a number of seasons or if the KHL folds at some point in the future ? What do you do then ? Do you fold the team ? Could they rejoin the DEL ?

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07-05-2013, 12:22 PM
  #37
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Coq Rouge
If you join, you can not leave. Any reason KHl to fold?

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07-05-2013, 12:38 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
Coq Rouge
If you join, you can not leave. Any reason KHl to fold?
I don't see any immediate signs of trouble, but I also think it's impossible to look 7-10 years in the future. No-one knows, how the KHL is going to look in 10 years.

I also didn't want to doom a possible move to the KHL, I was merely thinking hypothetically.

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07-05-2013, 02:14 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
I have another reactions from german hockey fans. Yes, loyalty is there but Germans are pro-international competitions as well. Look at Eisbären, nobody cares about ET in Europe, but fans in Berlin come to games? What is different among playing Jokerit in ET and Jokerit in KHL? I dont say that all fans are the same, but Eisbären is a great example, fans follows international games of the club.
I know a lot of hockey fans from Berlin, who never will attend a "normal" game of the Eisbären. I am one of them.

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07-05-2013, 02:38 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Tronador View Post
I know a lot of hockey fans from Berlin, who never will attend a "normal" game of the Eisbären. I am one of them.
what do you mean by "normal"?

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07-05-2013, 03:00 PM
  #41
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Any information about are 10k+ arenas in Germany profitable or not?

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07-06-2013, 12:46 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salzig View Post
I think you underestimate the loyalty of German fans to their traditions. Germans care more about their team, their identity and history than for the level of competitiveness.

Look at Hannover, they got a DEL team (which has just sold its license to Schwenningen) but they already had a team in the 2nd tier league. (Hannover Indians).

Attendance in the las couple of years:

2009/10: Scorpions: 5.074 Indians: 3.040
2010/11: Scorpions: 4.353 Indians: 3.033
2011/12: Scorpions: 3.847 Indians: 3.015
2012/13: Scorpions: 3.114 Indians: 2.831

Sure, the Scorpions had more people to their games, but the difference isn't as big as it should be, if you're arguing that a better league draws a better crowd, too.

I don't think that any fanebase in the DEL would accept playing against teams far away which they have no history/rivalries with and would accept the fact that it's unreasonable expensive to go to away games.
If they want have success they need minimal 3 german teams in the league.
They could try to build a western conference with 3 german,2 finnish,2 CZ and a Austrian team

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07-06-2013, 12:52 PM
  #43
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go after Salzburg first

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07-06-2013, 01:15 PM
  #44
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go after Salzburg first
They don't have an arena. HockeyArenas.net has renders of a project due 2015 but googling revealed 0 information about it.

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07-06-2013, 01:33 PM
  #45
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They don't have an arena. HockeyArenas.net has renders of a project due 2015 but googling revealed 0 information about it.
Why not to play in Munchen if new arena is built?

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07-06-2013, 05:12 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
Why not to play in Munchen if new arena is built?
Munich has some hardcore fans but in general hockey is such a minor thing there and not on the radar of most people. I think the attendance average has never been more than 4000 in recent years

I think the arena project is on hold for the moment because of the failed olympic bid. Theoretically they could play in the big Olympiahalle. They actually filled it pretty well on the rare occasions when they played there (10000 fans). But that was against Nuremberg ... a somewhat local rival.

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07-06-2013, 05:40 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
I have another reactions from german hockey fans. Yes, loyalty is there but Germans are pro-international competitions as well. Look at Eisbären, nobody cares about ET in Europe, but fans in Berlin come to games? What is different among playing Jokerit in ET and Jokerit in KHL? I dont say that all fans are the same, but Eisbären is a great example, fans follows international games of the club.
Yeah but the only reason they follow international games of their club is because they see it as a bonus to the DEL. I highly doubt that they've got interest in following international hockey over the DEL on a regular basis.

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07-07-2013, 07:16 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
what do you mean by "normal"?
Exceptions are ,e.g., games in Berlin between Eisbären Berlin vs. Düsseldorf, as we have an old friendship with the DEG. But normally, games by the Eisbären is a no-go-zone for us.

It is long time ago, we had a derby between the Preußen Berlin vs. Eisbären. I remember this game in front of over 7000 fans:

http://www.berliner-zeitung.de/archi...0,9979054.html

Sorry for being a bit off-topic, just have to remember one of my favourite players: Anders Huusko....


Last edited by Tronador: 07-07-2013 at 07:44 PM.
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07-08-2013, 06:14 AM
  #49
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Which DEL clubs are most pro-euro competition? You know, which clubs want to create some euro competition like Jokerit wanted for decade? Eisbären? Others?

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07-08-2013, 09:07 AM
  #50
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The most popular misconception is that, as someone said here, "European league would work, Russia plus a few European clubs won't".

Not that this statement is wrong, but it's completely taken out of context of trend.

Rome wasn't built in a day. You can't get 16, 18 or 20 European clubs to the league right away. However, if you look at the trend, KHL adds 1-2 European teams per year which is a positive sign. It has to begin somewhere - it did begin with Latvia and Belarus. Then Slovakia, Ukraine, Czech Republic, Croatia, Finland. Then most likely Poland, Italy and Austria.

KHL is very likely to start sending poor Russian clubs out in two or three years. No one wants more European clubs than KHL bosees themselves - that's the only way they may come ever close to profitability.

So before saying "it won't work", think of what KHL is gonna be in three or four years.

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