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the defensive debacle

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Old
07-05-2013, 06:20 PM
  #26
tuckrr
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Originally Posted by Stranger Danger View Post
Last year was a freakish thing. Doubt very much it happens again.
it sure was, but that's why depth is good to have. The compressed season made it really tough.

But even if mez is on the bench for 4 mil, having him for security seems better than a 3/4th pick.
At least until the trade deadline...

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07-07-2013, 07:19 PM
  #27
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Or we could roll 7 defensemen, that way Gus can get time.

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07-07-2013, 11:07 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
I trade both Coburn and Mezzaros.

Coburn is not needed on this team anymore.
Schenn has replaced him on top pairing.
Grossman is fine on second pairing with Streit.

Mezzaros is fragile and will get injured again.
He will never regain the value of what we gave up to acquire him.
Better to cut our cap costs and get what we can for him.

I would try and move both of them.
We need to acquire for a young developing PMD for the future.
Coburn + an asset might get us a good young player.
We have Luridsen, Manning etc... for backup defensive defenders.

No need to tie up that much cap on players who are 3rd pairing defenders.
That's great 2nd pairing if you want a top 5 pick.
neither Grossmann or Streit can play the right side but besides that I don't get how you are fine with Grossmann but have such a hard time with Coburn.

Schenn hasn't passed Coburn. Schenn was put on a pairing with Kimmo because he is a RHD and he needed a vet to help protect him.

Coburn is easily their best defensive dman. If you want to trade him because he has the most value that's fine but giving up Coburn for a prospect is dumb at best unless you think this team is in a rebuild despite acquiring a 35 y/o dman and Vinny.

I wouldn't mind riding out the d for a few months to see how Mez plays. At the deadline Mez may have nice value.

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07-07-2013, 11:24 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by lancer247 View Post
Coburn is easily their best defensive dman.
This cannot be stated enough.

Schenn was awesome paired with Timonen. Well, so was Coburn when we had that luxury.

I think Timonen - Schenn and Streit - Coburn are comparable pairings giving us a fairly solid top four. Gustafsson - Grossmann as a third pairing is just icing on the cake, and may be among the best in hockey.

Please, for the love of god, don't trade Coburn. Move Meszaros sure, but let Coburn get another year with a partner who can take the offensive pressure off of him. He'll be untouchable once again soon enough.

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07-08-2013, 12:22 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by CS View Post
This cannot be stated enough.

Schenn was awesome paired with Timonen. Well, so was Coburn when we had that luxury.

I think Timonen - Schenn and Streit - Coburn are comparable pairings giving us a fairly solid top four. Gustafsson - Grossmann as a third pairing is just icing on the cake, and may be among the best in hockey.

Please, for the love of god, don't trade Coburn. Move Meszaros sure, but let Coburn get another year with a partner who can take the offensive pressure off of him. He'll be untouchable once again soon enough.
I think they could keep all 7 and give Gus some games as the spare. Spell Mes, Timonen or Streit. Tell Gus to be patient for one more year. Kimmo and Mesz will be gone and he`ll start the year after....

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07-08-2013, 12:23 AM
  #31
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I still want to move Mez for anything. I always liked Mez, but I can't trust him to be healthy anymore, and his cap hit is horrendous for the amount of time he plays.

Plus I want to open a door for Gus to get the #6 spot, and that only happens if Mez is gone/hurt.

I think Mase and Razor (new detective show coming to NBC) move the puck well, and that will help the defense out tremendously, something that really hurt them with Bryz and Bob.

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07-08-2013, 12:50 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
I still want to move Mez for anything. I always liked Mez, but I can't trust him to be healthy anymore, and his cap hit is horrendous for the amount of time he plays.

Plus I want to open a door for Gus to get the #6 spot, and that only happens if Mez is gone/hurt.

I think Mase and Razor (new detective show coming to NBC) move the puck well, and that will help the defense out tremendously, something that really hurt them with Bryz and Bob.
move mes for nothing when there is no rush?

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07-08-2013, 12:57 AM
  #33
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Would not shock me at all if Gus is traded for a draft pick to "do him favor" so he can play elsewhere. That would tick me off

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07-08-2013, 01:00 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
move mes for nothing when there is no rush?
what do you mean no rush? He's eating up cap space, eating up a roster spot Gus can have, and he's always hurt. Yes I'd move him and hope to get a 2nd or 3rd for him.

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Old
07-08-2013, 01:01 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
Would not shock me at all if Gus is traded for a draft pick to "do him favor" so he can play elsewhere. That would tick me off
Unless they can't resign him, I'd be shocked if they did that

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07-08-2013, 01:10 AM
  #36
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Adirondack should be better this year, so it wouldnt be the worst thing for Guss to play top minutes there. It gives some of the other guys in Adirondack a top AHL defenseman to work with.

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Old
07-08-2013, 02:26 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
what do you mean no rush? He's eating up cap space, eating up a roster spot Gus can have, and he's always hurt. Yes I'd move him and hope to get a 2nd or 3rd for him.
Eating up cap space for who? We will have space once we put Pronger on LTIR. We can fit all or players without moving one...
We can always ice 7 defenders, and make a spot for Gus until someone gets hurt.

I for one just don't think he will be hurt this year...that part we disagree on

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Old
07-08-2013, 06:35 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
Eating up cap space for who? We will have space once we put Pronger on LTIR. We can fit all or players without moving one...
We can always ice 7 defenders, and make a spot for Gus until someone gets hurt.

I for one just don't think he will be hurt this year...that part we disagree on
Getting to the point when we can put Pronger on LTIR is the tricky part though as we need to be regular season cap compliant before that happens...

Can we not just ask Gustavsson and Wellwood not to sign their deals until the season starts? I guess they wouldn't be able to play in preseason games maybe (though for Wellwood that isn't an issue)?

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Old
07-08-2013, 08:16 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
what do you mean no rush? He's eating up cap space, eating up a roster spot Gus can have, and he's always hurt. Yes I'd move him and hope to get a 2nd or 3rd for him.

was our best defenseman two years ago. and is great when healthy. just stop

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07-08-2013, 09:22 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by jabba2 View Post
Adirondack should be better this year, so it wouldnt be the worst thing for Guss to play top minutes there. It gives some of the other guys in Adirondack a top AHL defenseman to work with.
Again to reiterate, Gus would have to clear waivers in order to play in the AHL this season. He would be claimed with 100 percent certainty. He isn't going to the AHL.

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Old
07-08-2013, 09:30 AM
  #41
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I don't think it's pessimistic to expect that Timonen, Meszaros and Grossman will all miss significant time this season.

Timonen is just old, Meszaros has a wrecked shoulder and Grossman has had too many concussions.

If all three of them are out at the same time then you have:

Schenn Gustafsson
Coburn Streit
Samecrap Aslastseason

I think management has to assume that two of those three will lose a lot of time simultaneously and plan accordingly. They need to dump Meszaros and trade a forward (Matt Read?) for a decent younger defenseman. Having all three of those guys making all that money in the lineup on day 1 and expecting them to play 82 games and then the playoffs is just stupid. It's not going to happen. And it's not like Streit is a young guy - he's had some injury problems as well.

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Old
07-08-2013, 09:45 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Gert B Frobe View Post
I don't think it's pessimistic to expect that Timonen, Meszaros and Grossman will all miss significant time this season.

Timonen is just old, Meszaros has a wrecked shoulder and Grossman has had too many concussions.

If all three of them are out at the same time then you have:

Schenn Gustafsson
Coburn Streit
Samecrap Aslastseason

I think management has to assume that two of those three will lose a lot of time simultaneously and plan accordingly. They need to dump Meszaros and trade a forward (Matt Read?) for a decent younger defenseman. Having all three of those guys making all that money in the lineup on day 1 and expecting them to play 82 games and then the playoffs is just stupid. It's not going to happen. And it's not like Streit is a young guy - he's had some injury problems as well.

This in spades ^

Flyers still have a questionable defense corps especially considering Meszaros, Grossman and Timonen cannot be expected to be ironmen. Grossman in particular plays the game in manner that almost assures him considerable injury time. Meszaros WAS an ironman but now his body might have to be donated to science. Timonen lasts about half a season but is still a warrior.

Streit is going to help but like Meltzer noted in his blog post the other day he is not exactly some defensive stalwart. He needs to play with the right partner and in the right situations so he is not exposed.

Flyers are going to have to hope that prospects like Gus , Lauridson, and hopefully Bourdon if he can remain healthy...can step up their games even more. Otherwise, at some point during the season they will be looking for defensive help still. Read may have to be leveraged for that at some point.

This is why the talk of trading Coburn for nothing in return besides draft picks was ludicrous.

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07-08-2013, 10:48 AM
  #43
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Do you guys still have any interest in that Laughton for Rundblad proposal that was kicked around so frequently before the draft?

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Old
07-08-2013, 10:51 AM
  #44
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Do you guys still have any interest in that Laughton for Rundblad proposal that was kicked around so frequently before the draft?
Not really. I think we're all pretty excited about Laughton, and I don't really want to gamble him away for something unknown like Rundblad. We have three PMDs going into next year, so we're not desperate to acquire one right away. We just need a long term solution, but we have time to figure that out.

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07-08-2013, 12:50 PM
  #45
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I agree Mez would be good on the bottom pair when healthy, I just don't know if we can count on him being healthy. I say trade Mez for whatever he can be had for. Roll with this:

Timonen-Schenn
Streit-Coburn
Grossmann-Gus
Gervais

If someone makes you a ridiculous offer for Coburn, think about it. Don't just trade him to trade him because he is an important part of the defense, despite what some HFB scouts would have you believe. Other than that, just sit back and hope Gus develops into a top four defender. If someone goes down for a short while in the top six, throw Gervais into the lineup. If someone in the top four goes down for a significant period, look to make a deal.

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Old
07-08-2013, 01:19 PM
  #46
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let's just go with
Timonen - Schenn
Timonen - Schenn
Timonen - Schenn

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07-08-2013, 01:42 PM
  #47
sobrien
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Originally Posted by SilkyMitts View Post
was our best defenseman two years ago. and is great when healthy. just stop
Yeah that never happened. I like Mez a lot, but he's never been our "best defenseman" except for maybe an odd game or three. The "when healthy" is key there too.

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Old
07-08-2013, 01:50 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
Not really. I think we're all pretty excited about Laughton, and I don't really want to gamble him away for something unknown like Rundblad. We have three PMDs going into next year, so we're not desperate to acquire one right away. We just need a long term solution, but we have time to figure that out.
If we could make it Laughton and Mez for Rundblad and Moss or something, I'd do it.

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Old
07-08-2013, 02:08 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by mercury View Post
If we could make it Laughton and Mez for Rundblad and Moss or something, I'd do it.
I don't trust Rundblad a bit, and think Laughton will be a good one. Stand pat, imo.

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Old
07-08-2013, 03:18 PM
  #50
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I don't trust Rundblad a bit, and think Laughton will be a good one. Stand pat, imo.
This.

Wait till midway through next season and Laughton will probably rather get you Yandle (in a package) than Rundblad.

I'd still keep him, he's got Flyer writting all over him.

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