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Edmonton - Philadelphia

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Old
07-08-2013, 02:09 PM
  #26
duffy9748
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Did someone say Coburn hasn't played against top line players til this year? Whether he is a top pairing dman or not is debatable, but he has been playing against top competition for the past 6 years.

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07-08-2013, 02:10 PM
  #27
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Smid > Coburn? What? Since when? Just because Coburn had 30 bad games in shortened season doesn't mean he lost all of his value... He's better than Smid.

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07-08-2013, 02:12 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by thadd View Post
Smid seemed really raw and injury prone when he first came into the NHL, but as he become more and more of a physical player and shot blocking machine all of the injuries seemed to go away.

He isn't one of the hardest hitters in the league, but he's a really tough guy to play against. He'd be a #2 d-man on a lot of teams in the NHL.

If Edmonton didn't have Smid they would have easily been last place over the past two seasons.
I don't know why that made me laugh so hard.

Maybe because one year they were 2nd last and this past year they were 7th last.

Not really a ringing endorsment for Smid.

I'd say both Philly players are better than Oilers players in the proposal. I can't see any Flyers fan being interested at all.

I will say the Smid contract for Edmonton was a very good one, I thought he would get more than that on the open market. Good for the Oilers, obviously he loves the area.

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07-08-2013, 02:15 PM
  #29
Petes2424
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That's just not true. He was put into a larger offensive role, one he's just not suited for - that's the reason. Let him be the fast skating, defensive minded guy he is and I expect him to be fine.
Are you suggesting playing top pairing minutes means your "put into a larger offensive role?" You're really trying to justify his taking more penalties in his own zone and turning the puck over more in his own zone to being "put into a larger offensive role?" He still only had 38 Shots on net....

Jonathon Ericsson went into top minutes this year and didnt have these same problems. In fact he flourished with more minutes and playing against other teams better players. Just because he was sent into the top pairing didnt put him into a larger offensive role. Not sure where the logic is.

If that's the case and he struggles against better competition, I think the point is made. He's a top four guy. Nothing more. Vastly overpaid for what he provides. Smid is a top pairing guy. Not a number 1 but he plays those minutes in Edmonton by default. He's been successful doing so.

That could only suggest one thing to anyone with any common sense or logic. Smid is a better player. There's a reason Philly is trying to move Coburn. For a team with woes on D, you dont move a guy if he's as good as some here would suggest. Logic.

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07-08-2013, 02:16 PM
  #30
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Smid and Coburn have similar value, and there is no way I trade Couturier for MPS. This would be a truly mindless trade from the Flyers' perspective.

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07-08-2013, 02:20 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by tade View Post
Smid > Coburn? What? Since when? Just because Coburn had 30 bad games in shortened season doesn't mean he lost all of his value... He's better than Smid.
Sorry, but you wont be able to convince any Oiler fan nor its GM. Smid is by far our best dman even after adding Ference.

Smid had twice as many hits and twice as many blocked shots last season.. The guy is a warrior.

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07-08-2013, 02:24 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Petes2424 View Post
Are you suggesting playing top pairing minutes means your "put into a larger offensive role?" You're really trying to justify his taking more penalties in his own zone and turning the puck over more in his own zone to being "put into a larger offensive role?" He still only had 38 Shots on net....

Jonathon Ericsson went into top minutes this year and didnt have these same problems. In fact he flourished with more minutes and playing against other teams better players. Just because he was sent into the top pairing didnt put him into a larger offensive role. Not sure where the logic is.

If that's the case and he struggles against better competition, I think the point is made. He's a top four guy. Nothing more. Vastly overpaid for what he provides. Smid is a top pairing guy. Not a number 1 but he plays those minutes in Edmonton by default. He's been successful doing so.

That could only suggest one thing to anyone with any common sense or logic. Smid is a better player. There's a reason Philly is trying to move Coburn. For a team with woes on D, you dont move a guy if he's as good as some here would suggest. Logic.
The rumors were actually that the Oilers were hard after Coburn, not the other way around.

Coburn can be a number two on a lot of teams in this league, but he's a very role specific number two. He's the kind of guy that you want supporting a puckmover. That's not to say that he can't make a first pass or even move through the neutral zone with the puck, it's just that it's not his strongest suit. His strong suit is playing sound positional hockey in all three zones.

Admittedly, he had a bad year this past season. I don't believe he played during the lockout which certainly hurt him, and then he got injured. There aren't many Flyers fans that have put a ton of stock into last year. It was a perfect storm scenario for them to have a bad year. The year before they were a 100 point team with a very similar roster.

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07-08-2013, 02:28 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Petes2424 View Post
Are you suggesting playing top pairing minutes means your "put into a larger offensive role?" You're really trying to justify his taking more penalties in his own zone and turning the puck over more in his own zone to being "put into a larger offensive role?" He still only had 38 Shots on net....

Jonathon Ericsson went into top minutes this year and didnt have these same problems. In fact he flourished with more minutes and playing against other teams better players. Just because he was sent into the top pairing didnt put him into a larger offensive role. Not sure where the logic is.

If that's the case and he struggles against better competition, I think the point is made. He's a top four guy. Nothing more. Vastly overpaid for what he provides. Smid is a top pairing guy. Not a number 1 but he plays those minutes in Edmonton by default. He's been successful doing so.

That could only suggest one thing to anyone with any common sense or logic. Smid is a better player. There's a reason Philly is trying to move Coburn. For a team with woes on D, you dont move a guy if he's as good as some here would suggest. Logic.
First, Philly is NOT trying to move Coburn, other teams are trying to acquire him.

Second, Coburn had nobody to pair with him and he was basically trying to carry his pairing with AHL talent beside him and sorry, Coburn is good but not THAT good.

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07-08-2013, 02:31 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Petro Points View Post
Sorry, but you wont be able to convince any Oiler fan nor its GM. Smid is by far our best dman even after adding Ference.
That says more about your D than it's saying about Smid.

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07-08-2013, 02:34 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
You're funny thadd. I think it's a telling tale that posters who are fans of neither team are saying that Philly is getting bent over here but go ahead and act like Philly fans are blind homers, truth is that most everyone who is NOT an Oilers fans agrees with us.
And that matters?

So everyone watches Crosby this year, while thousands of us here didn't watch Barkov, Jones or Mackinnon play in the regular season this year. They could come on saying "this guy is going to be better than Crosby/Kesler/Doughty" and then all of us are going to laugh at those people and say they're wrong just because the majority might not be very educated on the player in question.

Edmonton gets bent over trading away a guy who just signed a 4 year contract with them.

Seriously, this guy and his partner Petry combined for 16 points while Smid was only -1 last season playing against the opposition's best forwards. And that's only the 7th worst team in the league. That's beyond amazing. That's elite.

This trade leaves Edmonton with less cap space and NOTHING past Talor Hall on the left wing to play on the second or third line.

Yes, Couturier is being undervalued in this trade and yes Hopkins/Gagner/Couturier /Gordon would be pretty nice to have down the middle, but this trade leaves Edmonton is a worse position.

As of right now we're looking for a second or third line left winger, a third and forth line right winger and a forth line center.

After this trade goes down we can scratch the 4th line center off, but now we're looking for ANOTHER left winger.

I don't mind people saying that Magnus isn't a top 6 winger,but he did produce at a better rate and play well more consistently last year. I'm happy to have him on the second line because his size and speed get a lot of nifty work done.

This deal REALLY doesn't help Edmonton. It's a lateral move at best and that's not the kinda move Edmonton should be looking to do when it involves someone who wants to stay with the team. Lord knows how many players have left because they wanted to live elsewhere.

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07-08-2013, 02:37 PM
  #36
Petro Points
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That says more about your D than it's saying about Smid.
valid point but makes us want to hang on to him..

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07-08-2013, 02:39 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Petes2424 View Post
Are you suggesting playing top pairing minutes means your "put into a larger offensive role?" You're really trying to justify his taking more penalties in his own zone and turning the puck over more in his own zone to being "put into a larger offensive role?" He still only had 38 Shots on net....

Jonathon Ericsson went into top minutes this year and didnt have these same problems. In fact he flourished with more minutes and playing against other teams better players. Just because he was sent into the top pairing didnt put him into a larger offensive role. Not sure where the logic is.

If that's the case and he struggles against better competition, I think the point is made. He's a top four guy. Nothing more. Vastly overpaid for what he provides. Smid is a top pairing guy. Not a number 1 but he plays those minutes in Edmonton by default. He's been successful doing so.

That could only suggest one thing to anyone with any common sense or logic. Smid is a better player. There's a reason Philly is trying to move Coburn. For a team with woes on D, you dont move a guy if he's as good as some here would suggest. Logic.

No, I'm suggesting he's been playing a heavy minutes, top assignment role for years, but last year he was asked to be more of an offensive catalyst then he ever has, and he's not that type of player.

But hey, what do I know? I just watched practically every game he's played. Smug on, Petes...

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07-08-2013, 02:40 PM
  #38
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I think a lot of Flyer fans haven't seen Smid play. He's a really sound defensive dman. But I still think Coburn offers a bit more. But in terms of business, you gotta appreciate the lesser money Smid is making. I'd be interested in trading Coburn with a pick for Smid. But it wouldn't make sense(unless it was a high pick).

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07-08-2013, 02:43 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Petes2424 View Post
Are you suggesting playing top pairing minutes means your "put into a larger offensive role?" You're really trying to justify his taking more penalties in his own zone and turning the puck over more in his own zone to being "put into a larger offensive role?" He still only had 38 Shots on net....

Jonathon Ericsson went into top minutes this year and didnt have these same problems. In fact he flourished with more minutes and playing against other teams better players. Just because he was sent into the top pairing didnt put him into a larger offensive role. Not sure where the logic is.

If that's the case and he struggles against better competition, I think the point is made. He's a top four guy. Nothing more. Vastly overpaid for what he provides. Smid is a top pairing guy. Not a number 1 but he plays those minutes in Edmonton by default. He's been successful doing so.

That could only suggest one thing to anyone with any common sense or logic. Smid is a better player. There's a reason Philly is trying to move Coburn. For a team with woes on D, you dont move a guy if he's as good as some here would suggest. Logic.
No, that's not what it means. Coburn has played top pairing minutes before. But when he did previously he was paired with Timonen, who handled the puck moving responsibilities leaving Coburn to be the defensively minded partner. That's where he's at his best. This past season, without Pronger and Carle, Coburn was forced to be more of a puck mover (Timonen played mostly with Schenn) and that was the reason for the increased turnovers.

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07-08-2013, 02:58 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by seanerixon View Post
I think a lot of Flyer fans haven't seen Smid play. He's a really sound defensive dman. But I still think Coburn offers a bit more. But in terms of business, you gotta appreciate the lesser money Smid is making. I'd be interested in trading Coburn with a pick for Smid. But it wouldn't make sense(unless it was a high pick).
And it wouldn't make sense for Edmonton. Well, having a draft pick in there.

Mac-T's job is to get a competitive group of players to compete for a playoff spot next year, not to look forward to what may be in a few years.

Would it be crazy if Edmonton traded Nurse? I love the guy and was excited when we draft him, but before the draft I was eyeballing that pick as a valuable trade chip. With the cap space we're packing and the expected continued habit of a rising salary cap to come back as of the 14/15 season I can't help but look at him as a much more realistic trade piece than Smid.

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07-08-2013, 03:31 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Petes2424 View Post
Are you suggesting playing top pairing minutes means your "put into a larger offensive role?" You're really trying to justify his taking more penalties in his own zone and turning the puck over more in his own zone to being "put into a larger offensive role?" He still only had 38 Shots on net....

Jonathon Ericsson went into top minutes this year and didnt have these same problems. In fact he flourished with more minutes and playing against other teams better players. Just because he was sent into the top pairing didnt put him into a larger offensive role. Not sure where the logic is.

If that's the case and he struggles against better competition, I think the point is made. He's a top four guy. Nothing more. Vastly overpaid for what he provides. Smid is a top pairing guy. Not a number 1 but he plays those minutes in Edmonton by default. He's been successful doing so.

That could only suggest one thing to anyone with any common sense or logic. Smid is a better player. There's a reason Philly is trying to move Coburn. For a team with woes on D, you dont move a guy if he's as good as some here would suggest. Logic.
In that case Luke Schenn was a top pairing guy for the Flyers last year. Something tells me if I started some Luke Schenn proposal threads I would not be getting top pairing d-man returns.

Also the reason the Flyers are exploring (not trying) the option of moving Coburn is because A. we need to get under the cap and B. Coburn is valuable so, to use your favorite word, logically, he would generate a better return than say, dumping Meszaros. If nobody is offering solid assets for Coburn, they won't move him and just go for the Meszaros cap dump.

Lastly, he doesn't struggle against top competition he struggles to move the puck when he's being relied on to do so. Coburn has routinely been matched up against the best offensive players on the opposing teams to save Timonen from all of the rough minutes as well as being one of our top PK defenders (and the Flyers PK was one of the best in the league last year despite everyone hating on our defense/goaltending).

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07-08-2013, 03:35 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thadd View Post
And it wouldn't make sense for Edmonton. Well, having a draft pick in there.

Mac-T's job is to get a competitive group of players to compete for a playoff spot next year, not to look forward to what may be in a few years.

Would it be crazy if Edmonton traded Nurse? I love the guy and was excited when we draft him, but before the draft I was eyeballing that pick as a valuable trade chip. With the cap space we're packing and the expected continued habit of a rising salary cap to come back as of the 14/15 season I can't help but look at him as a much more realistic trade piece than Smid.
Sorry, I should have clarified. But that's exactly what I meant.

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07-08-2013, 03:37 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by oilersfan87 View Post

Smid
Paajarvi


Coburn
Couturier

Breakdown:
Smid > Coburn
Couturier > Paajarvi

Right now Smid is the best player in the deal although Couturier could end up being the best player in the deal. Most people don't realize that Paajarvi played almost as good as Couturier last season.

Edmonton does this in order to get a young, much needed third line center with size, while slightly downgrading their defense.

Philadelphia does this because they have four quality centers (Giroux, Lecavalier, Schenn, and Couturier) and can afford to trade one. With Paajarvi they add a future 2nd line winger or elite third line winger and upgrade their defense next season.
Why are you making a trade for Coburn, When he's most likely heading to Montreal.

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07-08-2013, 03:40 PM
  #44
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I think Smid and Coburn are pretty close in value at this point. Neither is a huge upgrade over the other, and each team's fans probably prefer their own guy. As for Couturier and PRV, they are kind of similar in a few ways...

-both dropped a little in their draft (SC to 8th and MP to 10th) - although SC dropped more
-both had really good rookie seasons and showed a lot of promise.
-both had drop offs in their second years

All that being said, there is no doubt that SC has more value. But both are kind of wild cards at this point. I don't see Philly moving SC for another question, especially one is smaller, is a winger, and has less potential. Edmonton would make this deal IMO, Philly would not.

I still would love to see Edmonton land Coburn, what would Philly want for just Coburn, and no Smid involved, as that is basically one step forward and one step back.

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07-08-2013, 03:48 PM
  #45
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Why are you making a trade for Coburn, When he's most likely heading to Montreal.
Sure he is..

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07-08-2013, 03:59 PM
  #46
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No, that's not what it means. Coburn has played top pairing minutes before. But when he did previously he was paired with Timonen, who handled the puck moving responsibilities leaving Coburn to be the defensively minded partner. That's where he's at his best. This past season, without Pronger and Carle, Coburn was forced to be more of a puck mover (Timonen played mostly with Schenn) and that was the reason for the increased turnovers.
Even if what you say is true, does that not logically prove he's not a top pairing guy? If he cant do it without Timonen carry his jock, why can Smid do it with whoever he's paired with??? It's not like Edmonton is rolling out all star D to pair with. It also kind of proves my point about being put in a position by the Flyers to hold more responsibility because they figured Schenn needed to be protected and not Coburn anymore. Coburn showed he does still need to be protected.

I dont want it to sound like Im ripping on Coburn. Just keeping people honest. He's a good player. He's worth a 2nd round pick or maybe even a late 1st come the trade deadline. He's a bit overpaid but that's becoming the norm in the NHL. In my opinion, he's not as good as Smid. Not even close. If Smid would've hit the open market, he would've cashed in quite well. In fact, I would wager the Flyers would've been all over him trying to secure his services.

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07-08-2013, 04:02 PM
  #47
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What's the point of arguing Coburn/Smid? The fact of the matter is with the additions of Couturier and MPS it's a joke.

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07-08-2013, 04:11 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Petes2424 View Post
Even if what you say is true, does that not logically prove he's not a top pairing guy? If he cant do it without Timonen carry his jock, why can Smid do it with whoever he's paired with??? It's not like Edmonton is rolling out all star D to pair with. It also kind of proves my point about being put in a position by the Flyers to hold more responsibility because they figured Schenn needed to be protected and not Coburn anymore. Coburn showed he does still need to be protected.

I dont want it to sound like Im ripping on Coburn. Just keeping people honest. He's a good player. He's worth a 2nd round pick or maybe even a late 1st come the trade deadline. He's a bit overpaid but that's becoming the norm in the NHL. In my opinion, he's not as good as Smid. Not even close. If Smid would've hit the open market, he would've cashed in quite well. In fact, I would wager the Flyers would've been all over him trying to secure his services.
You're good at ignoring what people say.

No, it doesn't prove what you stated. It proves that if you ask Braydon Cobrun to be the lead puck mover, he's going to be unsuccessful. It's not about "carrying someone's jock", it's about being asked to do things that aren't in your skill set. Put him with a puck mover, and as he's proven over his career, he can be on the first pair and will play the big minutes against the other team's best players. Give him Pronger's old role and he's going to turn the puck over.

And none of this has anything to do with Smid because, as someone already pointed out, the remainder of the trade MPS for Couturier, which makes no sense for the Flyers. I have nothing against Smid, I'm just challenging your notion that Coburn is some pretender Dman that the Flyers are peddling for some random draft pick because he can't play big minutes...even though he's been playing big minutes for years.

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07-08-2013, 04:21 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Petes2424 View Post
Are you suggesting playing top pairing minutes means your "put into a larger offensive role?" You're really trying to justify his taking more penalties in his own zone and turning the puck over more in his own zone to being "put into a larger offensive role?" He still only had 38 Shots on net....

Jonathon Ericsson went into top minutes this year and didnt have these same problems. In fact he flourished with more minutes and playing against other teams better players. Just because he was sent into the top pairing didnt put him into a larger offensive role. Not sure where the logic is.

If that's the case and he struggles against better competition, I think the point is made. He's a top four guy. Nothing more. Vastly overpaid for what he provides. Smid is a top pairing guy. Not a number 1 but he plays those minutes in Edmonton by default. He's been successful doing so.

That could only suggest one thing to anyone with any common sense or logic. Smid is a better player. There's a reason Philly is trying to move Coburn. For a team with woes on D, you dont move a guy if he's as good as some here would suggest. Logic.
Let's simplify for you.
The Flyers are now spending $30,000,000 on defense.
That's too much.
They have 3 guys that have varying ranges of value. Grossman is the cheapest contract.
1) Mezaros - very fragile, a good second pairing guy if healthy over $4mm on cap
2) Grossman - a staunch defender not at all a puck mover, has had concussion issues that are troublesome only 3.5mm$ on cap.
3) Coburn - injured last year, but not a chronic type injury like Mez and Grossman, has been a stalwart for the past three years. One of the fastest defensive players in the league who is not primarily there for offense. Over $4mm on cap.
The Flyers do not necessarily wish to trade Coburn, but he brings the most value to the market as far as return and gets the Flyers over the cap hump (which they will be over at the 2nd game of the season anyway). They don't have to trade Coburn, this is your OP.
Mez is who everyone wants to trade, but there will be little or no return for him, unless he is included in a deal for Couturier or Talbot.

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07-08-2013, 04:34 PM
  #50
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Sorry, but you wont be able to convince any Oiler fan nor its GM. Smid is by far our best dman even after adding Ference.

Smid had twice as many hits and twice as many blocked shots last season.. The guy is a warrior.
I think Andrew Ference is a good player but he is a #4 defender at best. I would hope your team has defenseman better than him.

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