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Old
07-08-2013, 11:42 AM
  #76
PredsV82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
"Quick, trade him before he busts and folks still somehow think he has value!"

There are players who are borderline enough that a trade for someone like Vanek makes sense. Forsberg isn't one of them.
listen to yourself... we are talking about a trade for a proven 30 goal scorer, and remember I specified that he had to be signed to an extension. this is the sort of trade this organization has been dreaming of/dying for forever..

this is not a "dump him while he still has value" situation, at all.. this is a "if you want something good you have to give up something good" situation.

IF he develops, Forsberg might someday be as good as Vanek... maybe.


I would say the chances of Forberg scoring 30 goals in any of the next three seasons is low, whereas Vanek scoring 30 is almost guaranteed

Forsberg would be VERY hard to part with, but if he could get us 5 years of Vanek, thats the kind of deal you can live with.

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07-08-2013, 11:43 AM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
"Quick, trade him before he busts and folks still somehow think he has value!"

There are players who are borderline enough that a trade for someone like Vanek makes sense. Forsberg isn't one of them.
Makes sense to who? Not to Buffalo. Have to give to get, and a high-end prospect for a proven consistent 30-goal scorer most likely won't even be enough. We got a steal out of that Erat trade as it is.

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07-08-2013, 11:50 AM
  #78
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I'd easily trade Forsberg+ for a signed Vanek. Although, it seems like management wants to take the rebuild slower than us fans, so there may not be interest in going that direction.

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07-08-2013, 12:08 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PredsV82 View Post
listen to yourself... we are talking about a trade for a proven 30 goal scorer, and remember I specified that he had to be signed to an extension. this is the sort of trade this organization has been dreaming of/dying for forever..

this is not a "dump him while he still has value" situation, at all.. this is a "if you want something good you have to give up something good" situation.

IF he develops, Forsberg might someday be as good as Vanek... maybe.


I would say the chances of Forberg scoring 30 goals in any of the next three seasons is low, whereas Vanek scoring 30 is almost guaranteed

Forsberg would be VERY hard to part with, but if he could get us 5 years of Vanek, thats the kind of deal you can live with.
And if Forsberg pans out, Vanek will be long retired when Forsberg is in his prime. I know what you're saying but we got a steal out of the Erat deal and it would be foolish to give that up now. It's a catch-22 situation at best. Vanek could be great for us. Forsberg could fail. It could also turn out the other way. Poile didn't acquire Forsberg to peddle him off this quickly.


Last edited by TMI: 07-08-2013 at 01:06 PM. Reason: fixed quote
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07-08-2013, 12:36 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post

And if Forsberg pans out, Vanek will be long retired when Forsberg is in his prime. I know what you're saying but we got a steal out of the Erat deal and it would be foolish to give that up now. It's a catch-22 situation at best. Vanek could be great for us. Forsberg could fail. It could also turn out the other way. Poile didn't acquire Forsberg to peddle him off this quickly.
Also worth considering is that though Vanek has been a rather durable player for much of his career, he also plays a style of game that leads to a bit more wear and tear on the player's body. Though it wouldn't surprise me to see him continue to be productive for the next 5+ years, he is entering that stage of his career where the physical toll of his style of play may start to break him down a bit.

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07-08-2013, 12:43 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post

And if Forsberg pans out, Vanek will be long retired when Forsberg is in his prime. I know what you're saying but we got a steal out of the Erat deal and it would be foolish to give that up now. It's a catch-22 situation at best. Vanek could be great for us. Forsberg could fail. It could also turn out the other way. Poile didn't acquire Forsberg to peddle him off this quickly.
This right here is what I think. Poile is not going to trade Forsberg. I think the only way you see a Forsberg trade is if it were for a deal for a player with the abilities of Patrick Kane or Steven Stamkos, otherwise I don't see Forsberg going anywhere.

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07-08-2013, 12:49 PM
  #82
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And one more thing on the Forsberg/Vanek proposals, we don't need any more wingers. If we trade Forsberg, which I doubt we do, we need to pick up a number 1 center in the process. That has always been our weakness and while it would be nice to have a sniper like Vanek, I'd like a center who can play in all situations AND can win faceoffs. That to me is a bigger need.

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07-08-2013, 01:11 PM
  #83
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Inconsistency:
2 years ago when we were a cup contender and had a consistent Erat, SK, and Ryan Suter - we needed a top 6 forward. We reportedly offered a package of four players/picks for Rick Nash and ultimately settled on AK and Gaustad. Now, we are supposedly confident all needs met with stalberg/Cullen in with Suter/AK/SK/Erat gone.

Poile can't possibly believe this. Or he has convinced himself of something he fundamentally didn't believe about the best team we have ever iced. Or he doesn't believe we are a contender at this point.

Then again, he could be actively pursuing the top 6 behind the scenes.

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07-08-2013, 01:50 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enoch View Post
Inconsistency:
2 years ago when we were a cup contender and had a consistent Erat, SK, and Ryan Suter - we needed a top 6 forward. We reportedly offered a package of four players/picks for Rick Nash and ultimately settled on AK and Gaustad. Now, we are supposedly confident all needs met with stalberg/Cullen in with Suter/AK/SK/Erat gone.

Poile can't possibly believe this. Or he has convinced himself of something he fundamentally didn't believe about the best team we have ever iced. Or he doesn't believe we are a contender at this point.

Then again, he could be actively pursuing the top 6 behind the scenes.
One thing to remember, while I would like to add a major top 6 forward as much as anyone, there really might not be that many available.

There certainly weren't any home runs available as UFAs. Sure, I would have liked Grabovski, and we all had our favorites. But the UFA crop was a bunch of flawed forwards. Heck, there's probably a better than decent chance Cullen out produces Grabo (and Roy) the next two years while playing better defense and being more durable (knock on wood).

While I might have gone a different route or two, it's hard to say that any one signing would have been measurably better than any other, with respect to filling our top 6 need.

As for the trade market, it would have been nice to land a Bobby Ryan, but Ottawa paid a steep price and it would likely have been even higher in the West. Outside of Forsberg, I don't think we have anything on the farm that would match what Ottawa gave up. I don't know if I'd do Forsberg+ for 2 years of Ryan, who looks headed to UFA no matter what.

Our drafting hasn't exactly been top notch these past 2-4 years, and the kids we do have that look good are penciled in on the team. The farm cupboard is kinda bare. With not much high end stuff on the farm, if you want the Vanek/Ryan, etc type forward, you're going to have to open up a bigger hole somewhere else. That may or may not turn out to be a good thing.

I honestly believe were a much better team than we were last year. Not even close. We've got a shootout specialist (6 shootout losses last year), quality forward depth, a possible lottery ticket that could pay off big in Stalberg, and grit so we won't get tossed around by St. Louis anymore (hopefully).

I want that big time scorer as much as anyone, but I don't know if there was one to be had so far this offseason.

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07-08-2013, 03:38 PM
  #85
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Yes, from 2 years ago Suter/AK/SK/Erat are gone. But along with the signings, Smith, Bourgue, Wilson etc have gained 2 years of experience. Also add in Forsberg who I think everyone is underselliing around here. In some ways we are a much better team then we were even 2 years ago.
And nobody has mentioned the single most important signing this off season. Phil Housley. I expect to see the D a little more active. This will create situations that were non existent last year.

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07-08-2013, 03:59 PM
  #86
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To me, the biggest question isn't even around the forwards. The biggest question is whether a rookie Jones can play as well as or better than the rookie Josi did. If he does, we're looking at a very solid defense. If he falters we're going to have that hole on the second pair again.

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07-08-2013, 04:01 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enoch View Post
Inconsistency:
2 years ago when we were a cup contender and had a consistent Erat, SK, and Ryan Suter - we needed a top 6 forward. We reportedly offered a package of four players/picks for Rick Nash and ultimately settled on AK and Gaustad. Now, we are supposedly confident all needs met with stalberg/Cullen in with Suter/AK/SK/Erat gone.

Poile can't possibly believe this. Or he has convinced himself of something he fundamentally didn't believe about the best team we have ever iced. Or he doesn't believe we are a contender at this point.

Then again, he could be actively pursuing the top 6 behind the scenes.
I do not think Poile has convinced himself that the team we ice this fall will be a Cup contender akin to where we were in 11-12. I think Poile believes thisa team gets us back to the playoffs, where of course anything can happen, and depending on how Forsberg and some of the other youth pan out, he will figure out what we hve to add next summer to be a true Cup contender

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07-08-2013, 04:25 PM
  #88
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next years FA class is much better...

Hope he can shed some salary next season and make something work out with a top forward from that class

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07-08-2013, 04:33 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CantbeatzPekka View Post
next years FA class is much better...

Hope he can shed some salary next season and make something work out with a top forward from that class
If no trades are done, the Preds are looking at Legwand, Beck, Clune, Ellis, Ekholm, and Hutton as the only FA's next year. 3 of which are resticted.

So I don't see much cap space being cleared.

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07-08-2013, 04:42 PM
  #90
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I would expect the cap to go up a bit next year though, and we still have 1 buyout left.

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07-08-2013, 06:06 PM
  #91
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I would expect the cap to go up a bit next year though, and we still have 1 buyout left.
it will for sure. Even if we dont shed much salary the bump alone in cap room could be enough if we dont overpay for leggy and others...

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07-08-2013, 07:05 PM
  #92
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Legwand's salary will probably go down.

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07-08-2013, 07:30 PM
  #93
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I would expect the cap to go up a bit next year though, and we still have 1 buyout left.
6 Outdoor games + the new Canadian Broadcasting rights... Yeah, I'd say it's going up.

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07-08-2013, 08:16 PM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CantbeatzPekka View Post
next years FA class is much better...

Hope he can shed some salary next season and make something work out with a top forward from that class
This is the story EVERY summer... a number of juicy FA's will re-sign throughout the season and there will be only a couple who actually make it to UFA and of those maybe one guy will actually fit what the Preds are looking for and then Poile isn't willing to overpay and/or the player is looking for a different market.

Then a few days later we'll say "Well, next summer is going to be a lot better for FA's"

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07-08-2013, 08:33 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Legionnaire11 View Post
This is the story EVERY summer... a number of juicy FA's will re-sign throughout the season and there will be only a couple who actually make it to UFA and of those maybe one guy will actually fit what the Preds are looking for and then Poile isn't willing to overpay and/or the player is looking for a different market.

Then a few days later we'll say "Well, next summer is going to be a lot better for FA's"
agree. but the forwards really are stronger than most. thornton, marleau, sedins, gaborik, vanek, bergeron, kessel, stastny, pominville, hemsky, pavelski, callahan..

defenseman include bouwmeester, phaneuf, markov, boyle, hjalmarsson, schultz, orpik, giradi

goalies include lundqvist, miller, and hiller

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07-08-2013, 08:37 PM
  #96
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Most will sign extensions during the season.

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07-08-2013, 08:56 PM
  #97
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Vanek, statsny, hemsky, gaborik, pominville will all most likely hit FA... While kessel, thorton, callahan, bergeron all have a possibility to hit FA as well...

That class is 100% stronger than this years. I understand your point legionare but it really is much better.

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07-08-2013, 09:06 PM
  #98
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If we want a guy, we need to trade for him and work out an extension. We are not going to land him as a FA.

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07-08-2013, 09:58 PM
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enoch View Post
Inconsistency:
2 years ago when we were a cup contender and had a consistent Erat, SK, and Ryan Suter - we needed a top 6 forward. We reportedly offered a package of four players/picks for Rick Nash and ultimately settled on AK and Gaustad. Now, we are supposedly confident all needs met with stalberg/Cullen in with Suter/AK/SK/Erat gone.

Poile can't possibly believe this. Or he has convinced himself of something he fundamentally didn't believe about the best team we have ever iced. Or he doesn't believe we are a contender at this point.

Then again, he could be actively pursuing the top 6 behind the scenes.
The bolded is exactly what I think is happening. Poile does not believe we're close to being contenders. I think Poile believes we are still very much in the middle of a rebuilding process that is going to take longer than most of us would like or think it should. If we make the playoffs, great, but I don't think that is his goal right now. I think he is waiting to see what we have in the system.

Given who we picked up this summer (a young project winger + 3 grizzled vets known for high work ethic), I think it shows we are grooming the young forwards, and waiting for them to develop into our core. One particular problem from last season, was the lazy and somewhat immature play of our young forwards. They're not being pushed hard enough and IMO feel too comfortable with their spot in the lineup. The 3 vets we brought in are here to show them how it's done, and bump them down the depth chart if they start slacking. The ultimate goal is to instill the work ethic and grit of the mentors, with the natural skill of the young forwards. Hopefully, they'll mature into hard working scoring forwards.

So rather than going all out on a scoring forward (which we still need), our goal for the next couple of seasons is to continue to develop our young players and prospects. It's the only way I can make sense of the summer so far. I know the general believe is that "we're only a piece or two away from contending," but the truth is we're still very much rebuilding and it's going to take time. I don't think we're gonna be in the market for a scoring forward for another year or two, at least.

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07-08-2013, 10:40 PM
  #100
Enoch
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The bolded is exactly what I think is happening. Poile does not believe we're close to being contenders. I think Poile believes we are still very much in the middle of a rebuilding process that is going to take longer than most of us would like or think it should. If we make the playoffs, great, but I don't think that is his goal right now. I think he is waiting to see what we have in the system.

Given who we picked up this summer (a young project winger + 3 grizzled vets known for high work ethic), I think it shows we are grooming the young forwards, and waiting for them to develop into our core. One particular problem from last season, was the lazy and somewhat immature play of our young forwards. They're not being pushed hard enough and IMO feel too comfortable with their spot in the lineup. The 3 vets we brought in are here to show them how it's done, and bump them down the depth chart if they start slacking. The ultimate goal is to instill the work ethic and grit of the mentors, with the natural skill of the young forwards. Hopefully, they'll mature into hard working scoring forwards.

So rather than going all out on a scoring forward (which we still need), our goal for the next couple of seasons is to continue to develop our young players and prospects. It's the only way I can make sense of the summer so far. I know the general believe is that "we're only a piece or two away from contending," but the truth is we're still very much rebuilding and it's going to take time. I don't think we're gonna be in the market for a scoring forward for another year or two, at least.
You are probably right, but I think adding an upper echelon scorer puts this team firmly in the contender mix. We have too much defensive talent and a superstar goalie/norris caliber defenseman.

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