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Old
07-08-2013, 03:21 PM
  #51
tuckrr
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If we trade mez & read ++ could we pickup a young blue chip defender like Oleksiak? He's a hell of a prospect

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07-08-2013, 03:28 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
I trade both Coburn and Mezzaros.

Coburn is not needed on this team anymore.
Schenn has replaced him on top pairing.
Grossman is fine on second pairing with Streit.

Mezzaros is fragile and will get injured again.
He will never regain the value of what we gave up to acquire him.
Better to cut our cap costs and get what we can for him.

I would try and move both of them.
We need to acquire for a young developing PMD for the future.
Coburn + an asset might get us a good young player.
We have Luridsen, Manning etc... for backup defensive defenders.

No need to tie up that much cap on players who are 3rd pairing defenders.
This is wrong. Schenn didn't "replace" him at all. Coburn is by far the better dman of the two and if Coburn had been paired with Timonen and Schenn left with scraps on the 2nd pairing like Coburn was last year then we'd be talking about how good Coburn played and how terrible Schenn played. Of the two, Coburn was deemed the more capable of them to carry the 2nd pairing.

Coburn wasn't given much help on his paring. with either Streit or a healthy gus next season, Coburn and our 2nd pairing should be just fine. without Timonen Schenn would not have looked nearly as good as he did.

From where we stand right now, once Timonen retires I think our best option for a top pairing would be gus + Coburn, provided Gus continues to build upon how he progressed last season (and in the WC's).

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07-08-2013, 03:40 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
This is wrong. Schenn didn't "replace" him at all. Coburn is by far the better dman of the two and if Coburn had been paired with Timonen and Schenn left with scraps on the 2nd pairing like Coburn was last year then we'd be talking about how good Coburn played and how terrible Schenn played. Of the two, Coburn was deemed the more capable of them to carry the 2nd pairing.

Coburn wasn't given much help on his paring. with either Streit or a healthy gus next season, Coburn and our 2nd pairing should be just fine. without Timonen Schenn would not have looked nearly as good as he did.

From where we stand right now, once Timonen retires I think our best option for a top pairing would be gus + Coburn, provided Gus continues to build upon how he progressed last season (and in the WC's).
Agree, but it needs to be mentioned, that Schenn looked very good, even with Lauridson as his partner.

Coburn's play will be crucial next season, though.
His play might decide wether this is a top 10 or bottom 10 D.

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07-08-2013, 03:50 PM
  #54
phlocky
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Originally Posted by dookie88 View Post
Agree, but it needs to be mentioned, that Schenn looked very good, even with Lauridson as his partner.

Coburn's play will be crucial next season, though.
His play might decide wether this is a top 10 or bottom 10 D.
I think the health (or lack thereof) will be more of a determining factor on whether or not we are a top 10 or bottom 10 team


I think the off season has gone about as well as it could have. We didn't make any major lineup changes (other than Bryz) and we addressed areas of need (streit, VL and Razor) while being able to keep even Meszaros who, if finally healthy, makes our defense much better (personally if he's healthy the entire season I'd take Mesz over Grossman). Timonen is a #1, Coburn a #2, Schenn a #2/3, Meszaros a #3/4, Gus a #3-#5, Streit a #4/5 (depending upon how much workload he can handle) and Grossman a #5/6. We may not be as strong as many teams but that's far from a "BAD" defense.

Now all we have to do is to get our forwards to play more defensively responsible, lol. THAT alone would make our defense and net minding look much better.

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07-08-2013, 04:40 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
I think the off season has gone about as well as it could have.
Still don't like that Streit contract, but other than that I agree!

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07-08-2013, 04:42 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
I think the health (or lack thereof) will be more of a determining factor on whether or not we are a top 10 or bottom 10 team


I think the off season has gone about as well as it could have. We didn't make any major lineup changes (other than Bryz) and we addressed areas of need (streit, VL and Razor) while being able to keep even Meszaros who, if finally healthy, makes our defense much better (personally if he's healthy the entire season I'd take Mesz over Grossman). Timonen is a #1, Coburn a #2, Schenn a #2/3, Meszaros a #3/4, Gus a #3-#5, Streit a #4/5 (depending upon how much workload he can handle) and Grossman a #5/6. We may not be as strong as many teams but that's far from a "BAD" defense.

Now all we have to do is to get our forwards to play more defensively responsible, lol. THAT alone would make our defense and net minding look much better.
Mez isn't a 3/4. Bill M posted an article about it. Mez has performed his worse hockey when used in the top 4. As a 5/6 he plays very well. This is the same not only as a Flyer but when he was in OTT and TBL. When playing against top opponents Mez struggles both offensively and defensively. I don't consider him better than Grossmann at all, who plays the top opponents ALOT more then Mez does for good reasons.

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Old
07-08-2013, 07:18 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
This is wrong. Schenn didn't "replace" him at all. Coburn is by far the better dman of the two and if Coburn had been paired with Timonen and Schenn left with scraps on the 2nd pairing like Coburn was last year then we'd be talking about how good Coburn played and how terrible Schenn played. Of the two, Coburn was deemed the more capable of them to carry the 2nd pairing.
That simply isn't true. As the season wore on, Coburn's minutes went down and Schenn's went up. In particular, here were their average ice time minutes for Jan, Feb, and Mar:

Coburn - 22:07, 23:10, 22:11
Schenn - 19:30, 20:20, 22:19

As well, when Coburn went down, Schenn's ice time went up even more and for the month of April, he was averaging 24:29. The more Schenn played, the better he became. Can't say the same for Coburn. The more he played, the worse he became. And before anyone goes on about how Coburn needed a puck moving defenseman, that simply isn't true. People seem to forget how well Coburn played with Grossmann and going back further, Jason Smith and Derian Hatcher. It's not a puck moving defender he needs to be partnered with in order to be effective, he needs to be partnered with someone with a strong hockey IQ in order for him to be effective. Coburn just doesn't get "it" when it comes to the game. And it kills too because he's a 6'5, 230 pound defenseman that has all the physical tools to be a premier defenseman, but no toolbox.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Coburn wasn't given much help on his paring. with either Streit or a healthy gus next season, Coburn and our 2nd pairing should be just fine. without Timonen Schenn would not have looked nearly as good as he did.
Once again, I love how the Coburn/Grossmann pairing is dismissed or forgotten together. Yep, that Grossmann sure was a terrible defenseman. Couldn't be relied upon to do anything right. He was a table scrap and a scrub.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
From where we stand right now, once Timonen retires I think our best option for a top pairing would be gus + Coburn, provided Gus continues to build upon how he progressed last season (and in the WC's).
Once Timonen retires, Schenn should be perfectly fine to be a lead pairing defenseman. He's smart, he's sound positionally and he knows now when to make the big hit. His presence is large enough now that the opposition respects him when he's on the ice. What the Flyers need is a top offensive guy to play on the top pairing. I don't know if Gus can be that guy. I wouldn't be worried if they played a tighter defensive game because that would insulate and shield Gus, but with Laviolette's brand of fire wagon hockey, it leaves defensemen to get killed.

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07-08-2013, 07:51 PM
  #58
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What about dump,Mezz and trade Coburn for young prospect and pick. Approx 9 mill in cap space. Sign Hainsey at 3 mill per and give Guss 1 mill

Kimmo-Luke
Streit-Grossmann
Hainsey-gus

Saves close to 5 mill on defense

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Old
07-08-2013, 08:25 PM
  #59
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Right now the two most important players in the Flyers system IMO are Gus and Mark Alt. If Gustafsson plays like he did at the end of the year and in the World championships, he will be a legitimate top 4 player in this league. He will be able to step into more minutes if and when injuries occur this year and could move into a permanent top 4 next year. Alt played well for the phantoms at the end of the year. He is the only guy on the phantoms currenty with all the measurables to be more than a 6-7 defensemen. Barring injuries, most top 4 defense prospects only take 1 to 1 and 1/2 years in the minors to be ready if not sooner. If he's legit, the Flyers will have another cheap guy to add to the top 6 next year. Gustafsson and Alt could provide a cheap bridge to the better defense prospects like Hagg and Gostibehere to come later and give the Flyers some salary relief to add a decent free agent next summer or beyond.

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07-08-2013, 08:31 PM
  #60
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How does that help the team? Basically replacing Coburn with Hainsey is a wash at best.
If they can move Mez for the pick/prospect(s) that makes more sense.

Is there a Sean O'Donnell type out there to replace Gervais as the 7th?

Actually, I am keeping my fingers crossed for two small miracles...Mason regains his rookie form and Bourdon's brain gets unscrambled. I would love to see Gus and Bourdon push for that 6th spot.

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07-08-2013, 09:16 PM
  #61
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I love Coburn, and what he's given for this franchise.

But...

When I watch the Blackhawks play, the Bruins, the Red Wings, etc. they have relatively unknown, relatively unspectacular defensemen playing big minutes, and having success doing so. It's been a while since Coburn's been the guy for this team. I wish he were. I really wish he were because I'm scared to death of the player he could be for another franchise. I don't want to hand some other franchise another Seidenberg, who immediately gets his **** together upon shipping out of Philadelphia. Or a Pitkanen, who just needed our media to eff off. We do, however, need a better class of defensemen than what we have today because as of right now we're treading on Flyers circa '00 when McGillis, and Weinrich were thought of as competent defensemen. We need better to be competitive, and because of the economics of today's NHL that means we need to develop those guys on our lonesome. Otherwise, we're sniffing around the league for scraps (e.g. Meszaros, and Carle) that can't be counted on for ****.

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Old
07-08-2013, 09:29 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
If we trade mez & read ++ could we pickup a young blue chip defender like Oleksiak? He's a hell of a prospect
I would absolutely love Oleksiak on this team. I think he's the most underrated prospect in the game. He could be a #1 guy, and nobody seems to be talking about him.

Olekisak-Morin would be a ridiculous pairing. So much size, nastiness, and mobility between the two of them.

I'd entertain trading Coburn for Oleksiak+something small. I doubt Dallas would be down, though. Oleksiak is there best defensive prospect, and they'd be better off gambling on him than taking the safe route with Coburn.

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07-08-2013, 10:02 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I agree Mez would be good on the bottom pair when healthy, I just don't know if we can count on him being healthy. I say trade Mez for whatever he can be had for. Roll with this:

Timonen-Schenn
Streit-Coburn
Grossmann-Gus
Gervais

If someone makes you a ridiculous offer for Coburn, think about it. Don't just trade him to trade him because he is an important part of the defense, despite what some HFB scouts would have you believe. Other than that, just sit back and hope Gus develops into a top four defender. If someone goes down for a short while in the top six, throw Gervais into the lineup. If someone in the top four goes down for a significant period, look to make a deal.
I'm a fan of a Mez for Diaz trade. Saves 2.8 in cap space. Gives us 7 NHL d-man...then Gervais. We all know there will be at least one injury so having 7 + Gervais will be needed. I would also look to add Blum at $750,000...and send Gervais packing too.

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Old
07-08-2013, 11:14 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
I think the health (or lack thereof) will be more of a determining factor on whether or not we are a top 10 or bottom 10 team


I think the off season has gone about as well as it could have. We didn't make any major lineup changes (other than Bryz) and we addressed areas of need (streit, VL and Razor) while being able to keep even Meszaros who, if finally healthy, makes our defense much better (personally if he's healthy the entire season I'd take Mesz over Grossman). Timonen is a #1, Coburn a #2, Schenn a #2/3, Meszaros a #3/4, Gus a #3-#5, Streit a #4/5 (depending upon how much workload he can handle) and Grossman a #5/6. We may not be as strong as many teams but that's far from a "BAD" defense.

Now all we have to do is to get our forwards to play more defensively responsible, lol. THAT alone would make our defense and net minding look much better.
Schenn was far better than Coburn last season. And you are selling grossmann way short

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07-08-2013, 11:19 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clown Baby View Post
I love Coburn, and what he's given for this franchise.

But...

When I watch the Blackhawks play, the Bruins, the Red Wings, etc. they have relatively unknown, relatively unspectacular defensemen playing big minutes, and having success doing so. It's been a while since Coburn's been the guy for this team. I wish he were. I really wish he were because I'm scared to death of the player he could be for another franchise. I don't want to hand some other franchise another Seidenberg, who immediately gets his **** together upon shipping out of Philadelphia. Or a Pitkanen, who just needed our media to eff off. We do, however, need a better class of defensemen than what we have today because as of right now we're treading on Flyers circa '00 when McGillis, and Weinrich were thought of as competent defensemen. We need better to be competitive, and because of the economics of today's NHL that means we need to develop those guys on our lonesome. Otherwise, we're sniffing around the league for scraps (e.g. Meszaros, and Carle) that can't be counted on for ****.
Keith, Seabrook, hjalmarsson, rosival, oduya, leddy, chara, seidenberg, boychuck, ference

Yeah what a bunch of no namers

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Old
07-09-2013, 08:05 AM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
I think the health (or lack thereof) will be more of a determining factor on whether or not we are a top 10 or bottom 10 team


I think the off season has gone about as well as it could have. We didn't make any major lineup changes (other than Bryz) and we addressed areas of need (streit, VL and Razor) while being able to keep even Meszaros who, if finally healthy, makes our defense much better (personally if he's healthy the entire season I'd take Mesz over Grossman). Timonen is a #1, Coburn a #2, Schenn a #2/3, Meszaros a #3/4, Gus a #3-#5, Streit a #4/5 (depending upon how much workload he can handle) and Grossman a #5/6. We may not be as strong as many teams but that's far from a "BAD" defense.

Now all we have to do is to get our forwards to play more defensively responsible, lol. THAT alone would make our defense and net minding look much better.
This needs to be underlined. The system needs a shake-up, and the Flyers have to play tighter in their own zone. Puck-chasing made too many golden scoring chances and plenty of conversions all too available, plus they spent long minutes hemmed into their own zone several times per game.

First thing is to master the short, crisp pass to a teammate who is moving out of the zone. I lost count how often they gave up the puck in their own zone with an easy out readily available. Alternatively, the Flyer with the puck would simply fire it off the boards into the neutral zone as though they were on a PK.

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Old
07-09-2013, 08:07 AM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
This is wrong. Schenn didn't "replace" him at all. Coburn is by far the better dman of the two and if Coburn had been paired with Timonen and Schenn left with scraps on the 2nd pairing like Coburn was last year then we'd be talking about how good Coburn played and how terrible Schenn played.
You're wrong. Schenn played great even when him and Kimmo were split up.

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Old
07-09-2013, 10:15 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
You're wrong. Schenn played great even when him and Kimmo were split up.
Schenn did play well, I would take the JVR/Schenn trade again if need be.

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Old
07-11-2013, 10:59 AM
  #69
DecadesofFutility
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Coburn for Bogosian

What about trying to trade Coburn + Laughton for Bogosian.
He is going to abitration to get a raise maybe the Flyers could trade for him.

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07-11-2013, 11:16 AM
  #70
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Quote:
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Do you guys still have any interest in that Laughton for Rundblad proposal that was kicked around so frequently before the draft?
I would be interested in a trade for Rundblad if the price was right.
I would prefer to trade Coburn, Read before trading Laughton.

We need to get some younger talent for the defense, and Laughton
might be valuable in trade to get some better young defenseman.

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07-11-2013, 06:03 PM
  #71
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Am I the only one who thinks our defense looks fine? I expect Streit/Coburn to impress this year. Gus/Gross is a pretty great 3rd pairing.

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Old
07-12-2013, 06:54 AM
  #72
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The most underrated aspect is we now have two goalies who can play the puck. Mason is damn good at it. I don't think people understand how this can make a defense better. Even Kimmo Timonen said this. They now don't have to be worried about getting forechecked to death nor do they have to constantly go the distance to retrieve the puck. The breakout will be a hell of alot better.


Last edited by Alchemy: 07-12-2013 at 08:12 AM.
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07-12-2013, 07:39 AM
  #73
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In the 7 games Mason played, you can see a massive difference in how the D got the puck out with him back there. The puck was half way out of the zone by the time the D touched the puck.

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07-12-2013, 07:43 AM
  #74
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having emery and mason is going to make it so much easier on the d-men... having two goalies that handle the puck above average is huge

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07-15-2013, 12:19 PM
  #75
phlocky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DecadesofFutility View Post
What about trying to trade Coburn + Laughton for Bogosian.
He is going to abitration to get a raise maybe the Flyers could trade for him.
I'd do that in a heartbeat but honestly, I think the Jets would want Voracek back instead of Coburn + a prospect. Bogo is better than most people think and IMO he just seems to remind me a lot of Eric Desjardins (IMO one of the most under-rated players of his era).

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