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Old
07-09-2013, 08:03 AM
  #126
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by broadwayblue View Post
Atlanta (Thrashers, not Flames) was one of the worst hockey franchises ever...all the way back to day one when they drafted Patrik Stefan #1 overall in '99.
Atlanta were one of the unluckiest franchises ever.

- 1999 was a terrible draft so they got shafted from day one as the Sedins would only play together.

- Their franchise sniper kills a teammate early on.

- Their franchise goalie has all kinds of injury problems.


Those guys fell out of the bad luck tree and hit every branch on the way down.

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07-09-2013, 08:41 AM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Both at 5 mil per for the next 5 or 6 years would be incredible. That's how you win... by getting value out of your top players. Now PK is going to be 7 or 8 mil a year.
and yet some still refuse to consider what a mistake it was to play the "bridge contract" chicken game with Subban...

or worse, actually think its a good thing that we have him at his current cap hit cuz, you know, it was important for us to have extra cap space last year for the Drewiskie signing, or for this summer to land Briere

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07-09-2013, 08:47 AM
  #128
DAChampion
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Miller,

Imagine if Subban wins another Norris this year.

What will Bergevin pay him then?

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07-09-2013, 08:49 AM
  #129
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If we have McDonagh, we don't have Galchenyuk or Tinordi.. so those "lineups" make no sense.

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07-09-2013, 08:53 AM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
and yet some still refuse to consider what a mistake it was to play the "bridge contract" chicken game with Subban...

or worse, actually think its a good thing that we have him at his current cap hit cuz, you know, it was important for us to have extra cap space last year for the Drewiskie signing, or for this summer to land Briere
I know I keep bringing this up, but giving young players too much money too soon can derail careers, just look at Myers in Buffalo.

I know it's great for the cap but giving young players too long a contract before they reach their potential is a slippery slope.

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07-09-2013, 09:01 AM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
I know I keep bringing this up, but giving young players too much money too soon can derail careers, just look at Myers in Buffalo.

I know it's great for the cap but giving young players too long a contract before they reach their potential is a slippery slope.
I personally don't believe your argument is relevant, Subban is not Myers, he is dominating because he wants to dominate, not because he wants a bigger paycheck.

The bottom line is we are saving 3 million a tear this year, and will lose 4 million a year for 4'years after that. Add in the Desharnais contract and we see that Bergevin has created an 8 million dollar deficit.

Bergevin was very clear, he did not know for sure if Subban was a goodpplayer. Neither was the Montreal media and fanbase that ranked him as the 6th best has dman and compared him to del zotto and kulikov.

Last year, i was among a minority of Habs fan that stated that Subban and not Markov would be number 1 d. We were right, by a massive margin.

Subban naysayers should just eat their crow.

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07-09-2013, 09:10 AM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
I know I keep bringing this up, but giving young players too much money too soon can derail careers, just look at Myers in Buffalo.

I know it's great for the cap but giving young players too long a contract before they reach their potential is a slippery slope.
I fully agree with you, and the overall effect is not that bad, some assume we could have gotten Subbie for 5-7 yrs at 5mil (!!!) but I would rather assume that the bridge contract plus the hopefully 5 yr contract he will get will not be that much more. Better cap planning at this time, and the point you make above is a very important one. I don't see why people keep mentioning Subban's contract as a mistake by Bergevin, it was a choice he made, it's always a gamble either way, and I would have been OK with either course of action, but I prefer the route Bergevin took.

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07-09-2013, 09:15 AM
  #133
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I personally don't believe your argument is relevant, Subban is not Myers, he is dominating because he wants to dominate, not because he wants a bigger paycheck.

The bottom line is we are saving 3 million a tear this year, and will lose 4 million a year for 4'years after that. Add in the Desharnais contract and we see that Bergevin has created an 8 million dollar deficit.

Bergevin was very clear, he did not know for sure if Subban was a goodpplayer. Neither was the Montreal media and fanbase that ranked him as the 6th best has dman and compared him to del zotto and kulikov.

Last year, i was among a minority of Habs fan that stated that Subban and not Markov would be number 1 d. We were right, by a massive margin.

Subban naysayers should just eat their crow.
You don't know what really motivates Subban, you're just guessing there.

Subban got a bit of humble pie last yaer with the team still winning with him out and I think it drove him to get better and conform to being a much better team player.

We would ahve saved having him signed for 4-5 years, probably around 5 mil instead of 7 mil, but there is no guarantee he reaches his full putential if he gets a big contract before last year. Plus, the difference is only 2 mil on an incraesing cap. The Habs cap problems were for 2013-2014, not beyond that, so that's another factor.

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07-09-2013, 09:23 AM
  #134
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Miller,

Imagine if Subban wins another Norris this year.

What will Bergevin pay him then?
Hopefully we wont find out. My understanding is that PK and the Habs are now allowed to look at an extension and I would think that after MB is done looking at UFAs and trade possibilities he will try to work on an extension for PK.

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07-09-2013, 09:29 AM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
- 1999 was a terrible draft so they got shafted from day one as the Sedins would only play together.
That's not actually true. The Sedins went into draft day expecting to be drafted by different teams. And Stefan was the consensus #1 overall pick anyway. Unfortunately for them, he was a bust.

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07-09-2013, 09:39 AM
  #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I personally don't believe your argument is relevant, Subban is not Myers, he is dominating because he wants to dominate, not because he wants a bigger paycheck.

The bottom line is we are saving 3 million a tear this year, and will lose 4 million a year for 4'years after that. Add in the Desharnais contract and we see that Bergevin has created an 8 million dollar deficit.

Bergevin was very clear, he did not know for sure if Subban was a goodpplayer. Neither was the Montreal media and fanbase that ranked him as the 6th best has dman and compared him to del zotto and kulikov.

Last year, i was among a minority of Habs fan that stated that Subban and not Markov would be number 1 d. We were right, by a massive margin.

Subban naysayers should just eat their crow.
How exactly are they losing 4 million a year for 4 years after that? If Subban wasn't the one making that money, somebody else would be.

I'm of the opinion that it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things if MB had signed Subban to a long term deal this year or 2 years from now.

Just because you 'save' money on a certain player's contract, doesn't mean the money saved will be used wisely elsewhere. There's a misconception that 'money saved' = money well invested. That's not true.

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07-09-2013, 09:42 AM
  #137
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I love how every thread becomes about this stupid "bridge contract" when there's a legit thread on the bridge contract itself.. I don't know why we argue about it.. It's done.. No one will ever know who was right or wrong


There's one thing that can't be refuted though.. There's a lot of teams regretting longterm high salary contracts on first RFA.

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07-09-2013, 09:50 AM
  #138
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Anybody else thinks it's a joke that Lindros is not in the HHOF and guys like Gillies and Neely are?

As much as Lindros wasn't a popular figure off the ice, he should be a 1st ballot hall of famer. He is the epitomy of power forward.

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07-09-2013, 10:17 AM
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I personally don't believe your argument is relevant, Subban is not Myers, he is dominating because he wants to dominate, not because he wants a bigger paycheck.

The bottom line is we are saving 3 million a tear this year, and will lose 4 million a year for 4'years after that. Add in the Desharnais contract and we see that Bergevin has created an 8 million dollar deficit.

Bergevin was very clear, he did not know for sure if Subban was a goodpplayer. Neither was the Montreal media and fanbase that ranked him as the 6th best has dman and compared him to del zotto and kulikov.

Last year, i was among a minority of Habs fan that stated that Subban and not Markov would be number 1 d. We were right, by a massive margin.

Subban naysayers should just eat their crow.
You either use the CBA (MB) or you don't (Edmonton). I like where we are instead of where Edmonton is. MB is smart and set a precedent so all players move to bridge contracts after the entry level contract. If you want to be in the bind Edmonton is in, then yes go ahead and hand out these $6 million per deals like candy and be in a perpetual rebuild.

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07-09-2013, 03:06 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
You don't know what really motivates Subban, you're just guessing there.

Subban got a bit of humble pie last yaer with the team still winning with him out and I think it drove him to get better and conform to being a much better team player.

We would ahve saved having him signed for 4-5 years, probably around 5 mil instead of 7 mil, but there is no guarantee he reaches his full putential if he gets a big contract before last year. Plus, the difference is only 2 mil on an incraesing cap. The Habs cap problems were for 2013-2014, not beyond that, so that's another factor.
We don't know what motivates subban, but you know he ate "humble pie" last year?

And better still, you think the bridge contract "drove him to get better"...

Have you no idea of his career trajectory prior to this year?

He's done nothing but get better & exceed expectations every single year. His "down" sophomore year wasn't even "down" as to those looking beyond the 38pts, it was clear that his overall game continued to improve...

Right now , with the way contracts are going + the fact that the organization played hardball with him & questioned his ability (which all but guarantees no team favorable deal from his camp), we're looking at a 7M$+ deal to extend him now, more than that if we wait & he has an equal or better year...

Eller, emelin, Diaz will all need raises, potentially significant, and galch/gally/tinordi will all require their bridge deals during this 2-3 year window.

That 2-4M$ we could have been saving on our best player is more likely to be a problem then you let on IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1993 View Post
You either use the CBA (MB) or you don't (Edmonton). I like where we are instead of where Edmonton is. MB is smart and set a precedent so all players move to bridge contracts after the entry level contract. If you want to be in the bind Edmonton is in, then yes go ahead and hand out these $6 million per deals like candy and be in a perpetual rebuild.
? Edmonton hasn't been a cap spending team, their failures in recent years has nothing to do with what hall or eberle make (both of which have been progressing just fine despite the big deals).

Ur point doesn't not match reality.

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Old
07-09-2013, 03:27 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
We don't know what motivates subban, but you know he ate "humble pie" last year?

And better still, you think the bridge contract "drove him to get better"...

Have you no idea of his career trajectory prior to this year?

He's done nothing but get better & exceed expectations every single year. His "down" sophomore year wasn't even "down" as to those looking beyond the 38pts, it was clear that his overall game continued to improve...

Right now , with the way contracts are going + the fact that the organization played hardball with him & questioned his ability (which all but guarantees no team favorable deal from his camp), we're looking at a 7M$+ deal to extend him now, more than that if we wait & he has an equal or better year...

Eller, emelin, Diaz will all need raises, potentially significant, and galch/gally/tinordi will all require their bridge deals during this 2-3 year window.

That 2-4M$ we could have been saving on our best player is more likely to be a problem then you let on IMO.



? Edmonton hasn't been a cap spending team, their failures in recent years has nothing to do with what hall or eberle make (both of which have been progressing just fine despite the big deals).

Ur point doesn't not match reality.
Oilers were over $60 million last year and would have spent more if they could have attracted any players to an under achieving team. They will be paying RNH,Yaks and J.Schultz $6 million per season very soon as per what Hall/Ebs received. Not a good strategy. Why even have a CBA if you don't use it? The whole idea is to protect the teams from overpaying for the players before they hit free agent years. What part don't you get? Are you Tambellini?

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07-09-2013, 03:47 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
We don't know what motivates subban, but you know he ate "humble pie" last year?

And better still, you think the bridge contract "drove him to get better"...

Have you no idea of his career trajectory prior to this year?

He's done nothing but get better & exceed expectations every single year. His "down" sophomore year wasn't even "down" as to those looking beyond the 38pts, it was clear that his overall game continued to improve...

Right now , with the way contracts are going + the fact that the organization played hardball with him & questioned his ability (which all but guarantees no team favorable deal from his camp), we're looking at a 7M$+ deal to extend him now, more than that if we wait & he has an equal or better year...

Eller, emelin, Diaz will all need raises, potentially significant, and galch/gally/tinordi will all require their bridge deals during this 2-3 year window.

That 2-4M$ we could have been saving on our best player is more likely to be a problem then you let on IMO.



? Edmonton hasn't been a cap spending team, their failures in recent years has nothing to do with what hall or eberle make (both of which have been progressing just fine despite the big deals).

Ur point doesn't not match reality.
What they wanted to see from Subban had more to do with his blending in with teammates and attitude towards the team versus individual success as much as on ice play.

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Old
07-09-2013, 03:54 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Miller,

Imagine if Subban wins another Norris this year.

What will Bergevin pay him then?
the odds are stacked against him but if he does, im gonna go with... ... ... ovechkin money?

christ

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Old
07-09-2013, 03:57 PM
  #144
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I am sorry - I thought this was the out of town thread.....

My bad.

Subban, Jagr, trade DD, oh the vicious cycle continues.....

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07-09-2013, 03:59 PM
  #145
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If we have McDonagh, we don't have Galchenyuk or Tinordi.. so those "lineups" make no sense.
If we had McDonagh we would've rebuilt earlier. Maybe we don't have Galchenyuk but we'd have some other top prospects because we would've tanked earlier and been much better off now.

No matter how you slice it that move was duuuuumb.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Miller,

Imagine if Subban wins another Norris this year.

What will Bergevin pay him then?
MB should be trying to sign him now. Who the hell wants that distraction this year?

Just pony up and say "Okay PK you proved that you're elite. Here's your money" and move on. It's going to be at least 7 million a year now.
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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
That's not actually true. The Sedins went into draft day expecting to be drafted by different teams. And Stefan was the consensus #1 overall pick anyway. Unfortunately for them, he was a bust.
Really? I seem to remember that there was talk of them saying they'd only play together. Then again, that draft was 14 years ago and I'm going by memory so you could very well be right. Either way though, that was a terrible draft.

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Old
07-09-2013, 04:18 PM
  #146
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If we had McDonagh we would've rebuilt earlier. Maybe we don't have Galchenyuk but we'd have some other top prospects because we would've tanked earlier and been much better off now. No matter how you slice it that move was duuuuumb.
Of all the excuses of the Gomez trade, INCLUDING the one that "but it goes us Cammy and Gionta", the "but we wouldn't have Galchenyuk if we would have kept McDo" has to be a Emmy winning one....

Hey maybe we should not have picked Gallagher...or should have traded Pleks for nothing...or maybe we should NOT have picked Galchenyuk, or maybe we should have traded Subban for Jason Allison, 'cause that way, we would have gotten MacKinnon, Drouin, Barkov or Jones....I mean it works both ways.

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07-09-2013, 04:22 PM
  #147
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Anybody else thinks it's a joke that Lindros is not in the HHOF and guys like Gillies and Neely are?

As much as Lindros wasn't a popular figure off the ice, he should be a 1st ballot hall of famer. He is the epitomy of power forward.
Absolutely. When he was "on", which granted wasn't very long, he was dominant.

Gillies and Neely weren't even close to him.

He should be in, no doubt.

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07-09-2013, 06:24 PM
  #148
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When Dick Duff got in...it just hurt the hall of fame so bad. Just like the retiring of jerseys, it should have been kept for the utmost elite. And now, it's mostly all you can eat.

Lindros getting in....maybe. But not yet. I'd give him somewhat of the Pete Rose treatment. There are rules in this league. And you are the #1 pick for a team and mister Lindros just refuses to go there, don't even wear the sweater and makes the league and one his team look bad? Just forget it was the infamous Nordiques that we love to hate but if it would have been Montreal....tell me how you would react right now?

Maybe he gets in, though I also happen to value length of career. But that's just me personnally. Not his fault? Well maybe, some will say it was though but that's another story. By the way, I would NOT have permitted Neely in as well. I have to be consequent. But now that Neely is in....you might have no choice. But let him ****ing wait. He's young. He can take it. While there are other stupidities going on like waiting for Burns to die to give him probably next year or the year after....Lindros can wait for what he did thinking he'd was greater than the league. And succeeded....

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07-09-2013, 06:42 PM
  #149
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Burns has been dead for 2 and a half years now. The Senator wasn't waiting for Burns to die, he doesn't want him in the Hall period.

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07-09-2013, 06:52 PM
  #150
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Originally Posted by 1993 View Post
Oilers were over $60 million last year and would have spent more if they could have attracted any players to an under achieving team. They will be paying RNH,Yaks and J.Schultz $6 million per season very soon as per what Hall/Ebs received. Not a good strategy. Why even have a CBA if you don't use it? The whole idea is to protect the teams from overpaying for the players before they hit free agent years. What part don't you get? Are you Tambellini?
so...

- they weren't up to the cap: Check

- you're speculating on what they WILL be paying to other RFA's to be, based on what you THINK MacT will do (who is not the same GM who extended Hall/Eberle) : Check


in other words, you're entire point was speculative & inaccurate...

I get that, i just don't get the point

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