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2013 Off-Season Armchair GM Thread Part V

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Old
07-09-2013, 11:49 AM
  #76
Dicdonya
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
Whether it's two or one, it makes no difference when you're comparing it to a team with zero. I'd take what the Canes have done over the last ten years over what the Sharks have done in the same time frame in a heartbeat. Wouldn't even think twice about it. I can't see a reasonable argument against that because again sports is about championships, not your win-loss record.
No sports is about entertaining the fans. As long as they are happy and buying tickets the team is happy. Winning the cup is merely one way to gain fans and publicity, not the only way. Last time I checked the sharks sell out every single game, while some teams with cups fail to. I agree every player wants a cup, that's their goal, I as a fan though want to watch fun hockey games and hope for the shiny prize at the end. Winning games like the sharks do every year does that.

I'm not going to say you are wrong for being willing to watch crap hockey for tens years to win one cup at year 11, and then suck for another ten years, but I will say I'm completely opposite of you. I'd rather watch great hockey for twenty years and win one cup, then watch 20 more years of great hockey.

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07-09-2013, 11:53 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Dicdonya View Post
No sports is about entertaining the fans. As long as they are happy and buying tickets the team is happy. Winning the cup is merely one way to gain fans and publicity, not the only way. Last time I checked the sharks sell out every single game, while some teams with cups fail to. I agree every player wants a cup, that's their goal, I as a fan though want to watch fun hockey games and hope for the shiny prize at the end. Winning games like the sharks do every year does that.

I'm not going to say you are wrong for being willing to watch crap hockey for tens years to win one cup at year 11, and then suck for another ten years, but I will say I'm completely opposite of you. I'd rather watch great hockey for twenty years and win one cup, then watch 20 more years of great hockey.

Agreed. Good post.

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07-09-2013, 12:33 PM
  #78
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The Sharks of 2003-2013 are mostly comparable to the pre-lockout Blues of 2004 and back.

We should ask the Blues fans if they thought it was "worth it." All the playoff appearances with no cup, not even a cup final appearance! (ouch) And a lot of superstars playing for their teams too.

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07-09-2013, 12:38 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by murdock1116 View Post
The Sharks of 2003-2013 are mostly comparable to the pre-lockout Blues of 2004 and back.

We should ask the Blues fans if they thought it was "worth it." All the playoff appearances with no cup, not even a cup final appearance! (ouch) And a lot of superstars playing for their teams too.
I agree completely with this sentiment. Until we improve scouting by a mile and get a franchise player via tanking, we're not going anywhere.

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07-09-2013, 12:41 PM
  #80
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yea i dont see a cup for us without a tank or two inbetween. just seems to be the reality.

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Old
07-09-2013, 12:55 PM
  #81
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Let's just trade the big 4 now and then have 5 1st rounders next season including our own top 5/10.

I appreciate the run last season, but I'm ready to get on with the franchise. It's either lose keep them or lose them for nothing after this season, and keeping them seems to just lead to more 'almost' but creeping towards 'not quite'.

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07-09-2013, 12:57 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Splitbtw View Post
Let's just trade the big 4 now and then have 5 1st rounders next season including our own top 5/10.

I appreciate the run last season, but I'm ready to get on with the franchise. It's either lose keep them or lose them for nothing after this season, and keeping them seems to just lead to more 'almost' but creeping towards 'not quite'.
Yah, thats pretty much what I'm getting at. It's now or never. I don't think the cost is worth one more try given how little control you have over winning a cup (luck) and how much parity there is in this league.

Trade the guys you can afford to trade, load up next off-season with a ton of draft picks. Hope one of the 1sts you procure ends up a lottery pick.

I'm not saying totally tank, you can avoid that. Trade a couple of guys who still have value and get a ton of picks and avoid a full tank.

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Old
07-09-2013, 01:00 PM
  #83
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In the reality of asset management, last year should have been their last year to prove it, with this year as a transition, and next year as the complete refresh.

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07-09-2013, 01:01 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Splitbtw View Post
In the reality of asset management, last year should have been their last year to prove it, with this year as a transition, and next year as the complete refresh.
And it seemed like that was the plan, then they scrapped it. I think you should stick to your plans, just because they made the 2nd round...

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07-09-2013, 01:03 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
We are arguing that has happened, his name is Logan Couture. You are simply arguing that hasn't happened. We will see if we are in fact correct this season, but if we are then it's too late to trade Thornton and we either re-sign him, or let him walk. That's the point.
Ok fair enough. If thats what you want to believe based on hopes and dreams then I will no longer say anything. He's yet to overtake Thornton in my eyes so we obviously just won't agree so I'm not going to argue it further. Only time will tell just like my arguments with people about wingels in years past.

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07-09-2013, 01:07 PM
  #86
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Frankly, I'm almost bummed we did so good in the playoffs, because it made me think we still have a chance. After 2011-12, when we were dismantled so easily, it was easy to talk about blowing it up. But this past run had serious promise to it, and I don't see DW blowing it up unless we see another February/March like this past one.

In terms of asset management, they should have dealt everyone at the draft, or do it at this deadline. I just don't see it happening. I just don't see DW being proactive in re-setting this franchise.

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07-09-2013, 01:12 PM
  #87
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Maybe 2012 was the anomaly year.

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Old
07-09-2013, 01:13 PM
  #88
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itll suck if any of the big three walk in UFA

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Old
07-09-2013, 01:13 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
And it seemed like that was the plan, then they scrapped it. I think you should stick to your plans, just because they made the 2nd round...
I agree that DW should have stayed more disciplined in implementing the refresh. Losing Galiardi, two seconds and the 63rd pick for Raffi, Tyler and Herr Meuller (instead of a reasonably good forward) gave back most of the gains he made in recognizing Clowe and Murray must go. (too bad Rangers did not make east finals, would love to have that 2nd next year.

Now we are left with the following, and little room to manuever:

FORWARDS
Patrick Marleau ($6.900m) / Logan Couture ($2.875m) / Brent Burns ($5.760m)
Raffi Torres ($2.000m) / Joe Pavelski ($4.000m) / Tyler Kennedy ($2.350m)
Tomas Hertl ($1.350m) / Joe Thornton ($7.000m) / Tommy Wingels ($0.775m)
James Sheppard ($0.830m) / Andrew Desjardins ($0.750m) / Adam Burish ($1.850m)
Martin Havlat ($5.000m)

DEFENSEMEN
Marc-Edouard Vlasic ($4.250m) / Justin Braun ($1.250m)
Brad Stuart ($3.600m) / Dan Boyle ($6.667m)
Matt Irwin ($1.000m) / Jason Demers ($1.500m)
Scott Hannan ($1.000m)

GOALTENDERS
Antti Niemi ($3.800m)
Alex Stalock ($0.625m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $65,131,667; BONUSES: $425,000
CAP SPACE (22-man roster):- $406,667


Is the above GOOD ENOUGH to win the new division play-offs, maybe, but unlikely. Is it good enough that we can expect to make it to the final round, no. Clearly we need to get better. Barring a miracle trade, I just don't see that happening this off-season. Do any of you see a potential trade that would make us better immediately and for the long-term?

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Old
07-09-2013, 01:21 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Nolan11 View Post
I agree that DW should have stayed more disciplined in implementing the refresh. Losing Galiardi, two seconds and the 63rd pick for Raffi, Tyler and Herr Meuller (instead of a reasonably good forward) gave back most of the gains he made in recognizing Clowe and Murray must go. (too bad Rangers did not make east finals, would love to have that 2nd next year.

Now we are left with the following, and little room to manuever:

FORWARDS
Patrick Marleau ($6.900m) / Logan Couture ($2.875m) / Brent Burns ($5.760m)
Raffi Torres ($2.000m) / Joe Pavelski ($4.000m) / Tyler Kennedy ($2.350m)
Tomas Hertl ($1.350m) / Joe Thornton ($7.000m) / Tommy Wingels ($0.775m)
James Sheppard ($0.830m) / Andrew Desjardins ($0.750m) / Adam Burish ($1.850m)
Martin Havlat ($5.000m)

DEFENSEMEN
Marc-Edouard Vlasic ($4.250m) / Justin Braun ($1.250m)
Brad Stuart ($3.600m) / Dan Boyle ($6.667m)
Matt Irwin ($1.000m) / Jason Demers ($1.500m)
Scott Hannan ($1.000m)

GOALTENDERS
Antti Niemi ($3.800m)
Alex Stalock ($0.625m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $65,131,667; BONUSES: $425,000
CAP SPACE (22-man roster):- $406,667


Is the above GOOD ENOUGH to win the new division play-offs, maybe, but unlikely. Is it good enough that we can expect to make it to the final round, no. Clearly we need to get better. Barring a miracle trade, I just don't see that happening this off-season. Do any of you see a potential trade that would make us better immediately and for the long-term?
If you can get a good return like a proposed for Boyle, you should. Specifically target a team that is looking to improve its defense immediatly at the cost of developing players or prospects.

Thornton is a bit trickier, it's going to be a quality for quantity trade, but in our case we would be looking to fill specific holes so that can work. If we can get a young high-offense defensemen (either prospect near NHL ready or struggling young NHLer) for instance as part of the deal, that could help a lot. Or if you get a couple of high caliber wingers it helps balance the roster quite a bit.

You could also move Pavelski of course, but that's likely a 1 for 1 need for need trade. I think you need to hang onto Pavelski until you know if Hertl is going to work out. Its unlikely we are going to be so out of it that we are sellers at the deadline, so either they are traded this off-season, walk next off-season, or are re-signed. If you re-sign those guys you are basically committing to this core again.

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Old
07-09-2013, 01:28 PM
  #91
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WTB Conner McDavid.

Goner for Conner?

Dishonor for Conner?

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Old
07-09-2013, 01:29 PM
  #92
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I mean, he obviously has some kind of plan since all these guys are hitting UFA at the same time...right?

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Old
07-09-2013, 01:37 PM
  #93
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He's clearly trading them all at the 2014 deadline and rolling with a 2014-2015 squad comprised of Couture, Burns, Vlasic, Braun, Hertl, and then a ton of third liners like Wingels, Torres, and TK in the top-6, then getting McDavid, and then trading for them all back. Duh.

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Old
07-09-2013, 01:44 PM
  #94
do0glas
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
He's clearly trading them all at the 2014 deadline and rolling with a 2014-2015 squad comprised of Couture, Burns, Vlasic, Braun, Hertl, and then a ton of third liners like Wingels, Torres, and TK in the top-6, then getting McDavid, and then trading for them all back. Duh.
itd be nice if the cap looked like

thornton-6 mil
couture-6 mil
marleau-5.9
burns-5.76
pavs-5.75

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07-09-2013, 01:54 PM
  #95
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how many goals/assists do you think penner would get on a line with thornton-burns?

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07-09-2013, 01:59 PM
  #96
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who is the 4th of the so-called Big 4?

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07-09-2013, 01:59 PM
  #97
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I think something that's being lost in the tank for the championship vs. competitive over long periods of time discussion is that the best team doesn't always win. Noone in the world can convince me that the Kings were the best team last year, or that Carolina was the best the year they won.

It most often is won by the hottest good team. The Sharks just haven't been hot at the right time, their goalies have never been on one of their hot streaks in the playoffs, and they haven't always been the best team. Stanley Cups are going to be won by one of the top 5 teams nearly every year, and the Sharks have been there very often in the last 10 years. Sometimes it just comes down to the fact that there are 30 teams, and 29 have to lose.

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07-09-2013, 02:09 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by SnarkAttack View Post
I think something that's being lost in the tank for the championship vs. competitive over long periods of time discussion is that the best team doesn't always win. Noone in the world can convince me that the Kings were the best team last year, or that Carolina was the best the year they won.

It most often is won by the hottest good team. The Sharks just haven't been hot at the right time, their goalies have never been on one of their hot streaks in the playoffs, and they haven't always been the best team. Stanley Cups are going to be won by one of the top 5 teams nearly every year, and the Sharks have been there very often in the last 10 years. Sometimes it just comes down to the fact that there are 30 teams, and 29 have to lose.
im guessing the cup has been won by the 1/2 seed more than any other.

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07-09-2013, 02:10 PM
  #99
Hatrick Marleau
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Originally Posted by Man in the Mirror View Post
how many goals/assists do you think penner would get on a line with thornton-burns?
20 Pancakes 20 Waffles

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Old
07-09-2013, 02:11 PM
  #100
Led Zappa
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im guessing the cup has been won by the 1/2 seed more than any other.
This is from memory, but I've done the calcs at home

It's 1-4, with The Kings winning at 8 and Edmonton at 8th making it to the finals in the recent era.

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