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2013 Off Season/Free Agent Discussion Part III

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Old
07-09-2013, 03:47 PM
  #826
MattMartin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by islandermaniac View Post
I don't think a single one of those contracts is a bad one.
No offense, you are in a huge minority.

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07-09-2013, 03:57 PM
  #827
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Originally Posted by blinkman360 View Post
I think you're overreacting bud. Too early to say "Poulin sucks". Obviously the Isles aren't ready to give up on him/Nilsson just yet, and wanted to buy themselves one more year. As far as Strome needing 3 years to become an impact player, I'm assuming you pulled that number out of your hiny. Prospects on a similar level in Galchenyuk and Huberdeau were arguably impact players last season, their rookie season, with less development time than Strome. The whole point of being patient with him and the rest of the top-prospects is to make the NHL transition smoother. If you truly believe that, then 3-years seems a bit absurd.

Defensively? I get it, but honestly other than Scuderi this whole crop was pretty disappointing. Scuds obviously wanted to play in Pittsburgh, so that leaves either:
A) sign a mediocre defenseman and stick him in the top-4(basically exactly what we've been doing for the last few years).
B) trade some of our top-prospects/picks for a legit top-4(depending on the target, I'd be OK with it, although I don't see who's available that would fit this description)
C) promote from within: from what I've read, a big reason why Reinhart was drafted is because of his NHL-ready size. If that's the case, I highly doubt the Isles expect him to spend too much time developing. If he plays well in TC, now could be the perfect time to implement him.

Again, could cause for a step-back this season, but could also cause us to take two steps forward the year after. For a team as young as ours, is that really such a bad thing?
You can't make the Galchenyuk and especially Huberdeau being on the same skill level as Strome with a straight face. They are clearly better. Strome may be a high end prospect and I hope for the best from him, but if you want to make a bet that he does or does not come in and perform at the level of a real first line player without any adjustment just say the word.
And Reinhart being top 4 next year, or the year after, is absurd. Guys like Doughty can do that. Most defensemen can not, even with a couple of years to mature on an AHL club. Defensemen typically take a couple of years to reach the top 4 with competence. Will it stop the Islanders from rushing him in? I don't think they will, but if plays top 4 minutes next year or the year after I will change that presumption.

And in what way is adding a solid vet who is not too old a bad thing? Better yet, out of all of our prospects, who is a top pair defense an anywhere in the system outside of Hamonic? Or a real first line wing outside of MAYBE Strome? Is that even the best use of Strome?

In goal we shall see. I say Poulin bombs out and you say he will be what, above average? Let's revisit this one next April.

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07-09-2013, 05:05 PM
  #828
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Originally Posted by A Pointed Stick View Post
You can't make the Galchenyuk and especially Huberdeau being on the same skill level as Strome with a straight face. They are clearly better. Strome may be a high end prospect and I hope for the best from him, but if you want to make a bet that he does or does not come in and perform at the level of a real first line player without any adjustment just say the word.
And Reinhart being top 4 next year, or the year after, is absurd. Guys like Doughty can do that. Most defensemen can not, even with a couple of years to mature on an AHL club. Defensemen typically take a couple of years to reach the top 4 with competence. Will it stop the Islanders from rushing him in? I don't think they will, but if plays top 4 minutes next year or the year after I will change that presumption.

And in what way is adding a solid vet who is not too old a bad thing? Better yet, out of all of our prospects, who is a top pair defense an anywhere in the system outside of Hamonic? Or a real first line wing outside of MAYBE Strome? Is that even the best use of Strome?

In goal we shall see. I say Poulin bombs out and you say he will be what, above average? Let's revisit this one next April.
What makes Galchenyuk and Huberdeau so much better than Strome? Their size? Strome has more skill than both, and better vision than both. The only drawback on Strome this entire time has been his slight build. His defensive game was originally considered a weakness, but it's something he's taken huge strides with these last two seasons. Strome is a legit top-10 prospect right now, borderline top-5. I don't see the problem with comparing him to guys like Huberdeau and Galchenyuk.

Either way, I never said I expect him to come in and perform like a legit 1st line player right off the bat. All I said was I expect him to at least give us the same numbers Boyes gave us. I don't think that is an unreasonable expectation, considering Huberdeau put up similar numbers in his rookie season, and he didn't have the luxury of playing with a center like Tavares.

With Reinhart, I have no idea if he can handle top-4 minutes next year or the year after. That said I'm pretty confident that he can handle 3rd pairing minutes in 2013-14, and wouldn't be opposed to giving him a look with Visnovsky on the 2nd pair in camp. If it doesn't work out, bump Strait up a pairing and use Griff on the 3rd, or send him down to Edmonton. All I'm saying is that it's an option, especially when you look at why he was drafted. Outside of his upside if the offense comes around, Reinhart was considered to be the 2nd most NHL ready defenseman in last year's draft behind Murray.

Not sure what the 2nd to last part was about. I guess Reinhart and Pulock could be considered future top-pairing guys, or perhaps someone else steps up. When Hamonic was drafted, people thought it was a huge reach. Now he's our only legit top-pairing guy. Hard to tell before these kids step into the NHL.

Like I said with the goalies, it's really not a huge deal. You think it is, and I respect that, but there are always goalies available, and next year will be no exception. I think the Nabby route for one more year is fine.

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07-09-2013, 05:29 PM
  #829
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I think Reinhart playing top 4 minutes is not a stretch. Him reach his potential would be but im extremely confident he could play a solid positionally sound defensive game next year and as he gets more comfortable is offense may come around next or the year after. Lets be honest, hes not known for his offense anyway. Its probably not ideal, but i would like him to be a bottom pair guy next year anyway...as he progresses he can play his way into the top 4. I dont see anything wrong with that.

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Old
07-09-2013, 06:21 PM
  #830
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blinkman360 View Post
What makes Galchenyuk and Huberdeau so much better than Strome? Their size? Strome has more skill than both, and better vision than both. The only drawback on Strome this entire time has been his slight build. His defensive game was originally considered a weakness, but it's something he's taken huge strides with these last two seasons. Strome is a legit top-10 prospect right now, borderline top-5. I don't see the problem with comparing him to guys like Huberdeau and Galchenyuk.
His size, yes, and he still needs to improve in that dept. Galchenyuk was thrown to the wolves on a bad team too early IMO. Huberdeau though, he delivered. More skill? Easily.


Quote:
Either way, I never said I expect him to come in and perform like a legit 1st line player right off the bat.
Actually what you said was, "As far as Strome needing 3 years to become an impact player, I'm assuming you pulled that number out of your hiny." I was speaking of first line talent, you reduced it to impact player. Well, which is it? He CAN be an impact player on the second line, but that still means we have a huge hole filled by PMB, Moulson, Bailey, Okposo, or whatever other inconsistent or flawed 2nd-3rd liner you care to plug in there. I am looking for a real, honest to goodness, quality first line forward to maximize John's output and help turn the collective minus for that line finally into a plus. It really is hard to win hockey games when your first scoring unit gives up more goals than they get.

Quote:
With Reinhart, I have no idea if he can handle top-4 minutes next year or the year after. That said I'm pretty confident that he can handle 3rd pairing minutes in 2013-14...
Ok, I agree with that, but I am talking top two, not top 6. We need a top 2, and waiting to fill the hole is killing this club. They could be doing much better except for 1 person who won't spend above the floor. I should add Clutterbuck into my periodic analysis of the floor vs. where we are vs. reality.

Quote:
Not sure what the 2nd to last part was about. I guess Reinhart and Pulock could be considered future top-pairing guys, or perhaps someone else steps up.
My point was it will take time. The forwards are turning a corner now. The defense needs years. It is like trying to drive a car where the front wheels turn 30 mph, and the back wheels only turn 10 mph. The slow ones limit what the faster ones will do, to go with a simplistic analogy.

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Old
07-09-2013, 06:28 PM
  #831
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An update with Clutterbuck's money included:

The knowns:
The Cap is $64 Million.
The Floor is $44 million.
Isle's 2013-14 salary to date: $44,944,476
Isles real salary to date minus Lee ($1,750,000): $43.2 million.

Remaining RFAs and my guestimated salaries:
Hickey - $750K
Bailey - $2 Million

That would put us at $45.9 Million or so, a whole $1.9 Million above the floor.

Minus from this the league revenue sharing check which we are awaiting word on for the true out of pocket roster cost.

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Old
07-09-2013, 06:49 PM
  #832
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I think Griff is ready

Normally I'd be all for sending him back to Jr no matter what, but we've got a need here. If he plays and does well enough, he should make this team. We could certainly use him. I honestly don't see his offense progressing much, and his defensive game is already NHL caliber. He was already physically ready when we drafted him.

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Old
07-09-2013, 06:56 PM
  #833
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester9881 View Post
I think Griff is ready

Normally I'd be all for sending him back to Jr no matter what, but we've got a need here. If he plays and does well enough, he should make this team. We could certainly use him. I honestly don't see his offense progressing much, and his defensive game is already NHL caliber. He was already physically ready when we drafted him.
I'm starting to think he's ready too. Those are the biggest reasons why he can play on the 3rd pair and we won't have to worry about stunting his growth. With the offensive Dmen you like for them to really dominate in juniors and even hone their offensive skills in the AHL. Reinhart is never going to be a point producer so there's no worries about hurting that part of his development getting sheltered minutes in the NHL.

Only thing is Donovan is ready too. Do you want two rookies on your blueline? I think you have to hope one of them is able to play with Visnovsky (probably Donovan).

AMAC - Hammer
Donovan - Vis
Reinhart - Strait


Last edited by Riseonfire: 07-09-2013 at 10:19 PM.
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Old
07-09-2013, 06:59 PM
  #834
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A Pointed Stick View Post
An update with Clutterbuck's money included:

The knowns:
The Cap is $64 Million.
The Floor is $44 million.
Isle's 2013-14 salary to date: $44,944,476
Isles real salary to date minus Lee ($1,750,000): $43.2 million.

Remaining RFAs and my guestimated salaries:
Hickey - $750K
Bailey - $2 Million

That would put us at $45.9 Million or so, a whole $1.9 Million above the floor.

Minus from this the league revenue sharing check which we are awaiting word on for the true out of pocket roster cost.
Are you factoring in Donovan and Nelson? I don't think capgeek has them on the active roster.

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Old
07-09-2013, 07:01 PM
  #835
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Originally Posted by Riseonfire View Post
Only thing is Donovan is ready too. Do you want two rookies on your blueline? I think you have to hope one of them is able to play with Visnovsky (probably Donovan).

AMAC - Hammer
Donovan - Vis
Reinhart - Streit
With the amount of kids coming up they will have to make the room. I can live with that for the long term payoff, but it is going to cost us some games which was one of the reasons we needed to get a better goaltender than Nabokov.

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07-09-2013, 07:02 PM
  #836
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester9881 View Post
I think Griff is ready

Normally I'd be all for sending him back to Jr no matter what, but we've got a need here. If he plays and does well enough, he should make this team. We could certainly use him. I honestly don't see his offense progressing much, and his defensive game is already NHL caliber. He was already physically ready when we drafted him.
I disagree. It looks like the defense is set for next season. Snow clearly wants to give Donovan his shot and Strait is considered a top-4 d-man for him. Like it or not, that's who we're going with.

Reinhart will have a much expanded role next season in Edmonton. He was mostly playing 2nd pair with Musil and Gernat getting top pairing minutes this year. Spot PP duty too. Both players are graduated and Reinhart will be the #1 with extensive PP time next season. His defensive game is solid, but he can still work on his offensive game at the appropriate level. Griff's value is not that of a pure shutdown d-man, it's his 2-way ability that will distinguish him above the rest when it's all said and done. He has untapped ability and he needs reps. He'll get them in Edmonton. He could very well be ready after next season.

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Old
07-09-2013, 07:16 PM
  #837
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Originally Posted by IslesRock4 View Post
Are you factoring in Donovan and Nelson? I don't think capgeek has them on the active roster.
Good catch IR4. Donovan is $875K and Nelson is $2.8 Mill. We have 14 forwards if you swap Nelson and Lee whom I cut out anyway. We have 7 defensemen once Hickey signs but that includes Finley. We have two goaltenders, for 23 spots total. I'd expect Donovan in for Finley. Those moves would add another $2 to $3 million to the roster. That's nicer to see but they will need a little squish room anyway when injuries start adding up. Some of the lower paid kids will be up this season based on a normal season.

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07-09-2013, 07:17 PM
  #838
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Originally Posted by Jester9881 View Post
I think Griff is ready

Normally I'd be all for sending him back to Jr no matter what, but we've got a need here. If he plays and does well enough, he should make this team. We could certainly use him. I honestly don't see his offense progressing much, and his defensive game is already NHL caliber. He was already physically ready when we drafted him.
I disagree big time.

DMen need much more time to develop. Everybody knows this. Its a point that has been hammered to death. Couple that thought with the fact that we currently have a bunch of players in Bridgeport that are developmentally ahead of him: most notable are Donovan and de Haan, both of whom are 22-23 years of age. Why would we bypass two players that are important contributors on an AHL roster, for a 19 year old still struggling to establish himself as a two-way dman.

The NHL is not the place to learn your craft as a dman. Griff has not learned the offensive game yet. There is still a lot to be tapped there. Bringing him to the NHL now will hinder his progression in that area as he will fall back into the usual rushed dman phase of "I just don't want to make mistakes."

No need to rush. I think he should have another full year at juniors. Then he should likely get one in the AHL. We have depth as an asset. To not use it is silly.

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07-09-2013, 07:20 PM
  #839
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I disagree. It looks like the defense is set for next season. Snow clearly wants to give Donovan his shot and Strait is considered a top-4 d-man for him. Like it or not, that's who we're going with.

Reinhart will have a much expanded role next season in Edmonton. He was mostly playing 2nd pair with Musil and Gernat getting top pairing minutes this year. Spot PP duty too. Both players are graduated and Reinhart will be the #1 with extensive PP time next season. His defensive game is solid, but he can still work on his offensive game at the appropriate level. Griff's value is not that of a pure shutdown d-man, it's his 2-way ability that will distinguish him above the rest when it's all said and done. He has untapped ability and he needs reps. He'll get them in Edmonton. He could very well be ready after next season.
the bolded is what was said in a recent interview with edmonton's coach, right? that is precisely why i want to see griff returned to the dub next season. i really think he's got a lot of untapped offensive potential and our eyes will hopefully be opened to this when he gets his shot.

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07-09-2013, 08:04 PM
  #840
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Originally Posted by IslesRock4 View Post
Are you factoring in Donovan and Nelson? I don't think capgeek has them on the active roster.
capgeek also hasnt added poulin's 1.3m qualifying offer to the cap # yet as well.

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07-09-2013, 08:58 PM
  #841
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You mean, like they do right now (Moulson/Tavares)? As long as there is depth in the lineup, this shouldn't matter too much. I'd rather have the depth anyway.



Who knows with Moulson, I wouldn't be surprised either way. As for Strome/Nelson..... Brock Nelson is the better centerman, plain and simple..... and Ryan Strome is better suited to wing. I've watched a lot of both and have been saying it for a couple years now. Everyone kept saying that they have no intention of playing Strome on wing, because all he's played is center. Well, they moved him when he got to the AHL and left Brock at center, so what does that tell you?

There's absolutely nothing wrong with it, I think both players will excel at their positions.
Meh...strome playing a few games at wing at the end of the year doesn't say much to me. Strome is one of the best prospects in the world as a centre. I would like to see him use his tremendous vision from that position but I guess we'll see.

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07-09-2013, 09:01 PM
  #842
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This team is spending above the salary floor? Whoa.

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07-09-2013, 09:02 PM
  #843
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No offense, you are in a huge minority.
We should have a poll then because of the three players mentioned, Ryan, scuderi, and bernier, I fail to see a terrible contract.

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07-09-2013, 09:23 PM
  #844
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Originally Posted by Jester9881 View Post
You mean, like they do right now (Moulson/Tavares)? As long as there is depth in the lineup, this shouldn't matter too much. I'd rather have the depth anyway.



Who knows with Moulson, I wouldn't be surprised either way. As for Strome/Nelson..... Brock Nelson is the better centerman, plain and simple..... and Ryan Strome is better suited to wing. I've watched a lot of both and have been saying it for a couple years now. Everyone kept saying that they have no intention of playing Strome on wing, because all he's played is center. Well, they moved him when he got to the AHL and left Brock at center, so what does that tell you?

There's absolutely nothing wrong with it, I think both players will excel at their positions.
I also wanted to add here that this strome to the wing thing reminds me of how people around here wanted Tavares on the wing hahahahahahahahahaha! This is not directed at you, of course. This discussion of moving this guy or that guy to wing triggered that ridiculous memory. Anyway, like I said earlier, I guess we will have to wait and see...

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07-09-2013, 09:35 PM
  #845
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Originally Posted by islandermaniac View Post
I also wanted to add here that this strome to the wing thing reminds me of how people around here wanted Tavares on the wing hahahahahahahahahaha! This is not directed at you, of course. This discussion of moving this guy or that guy to wing triggered that ridiculous memory. Anyway, like I said earlier, I guess we will have to wait and see...
JT moving to wing was ridic-talk, but the presence of Tavares changes things for Strome. I've always thought Strome should stay at center, but I wouldn't mind him starting out on the wing IF and only IF he's the best option. Less responsibility and he has the offensive talent to be very successful with Tavares.

In the end, having a JT-Strome duo up the middle would be my most ideal scenario. Add in Nelson and we are looking very strong up the middle and that would be our backbone of the forward corps. Their versatility would also be a good thing because it gives the coaching staff options. Late in the 3rd, trailing by a goal... pull a Pittsburgh and have a Nelson-Tavares-Strome line to get you a goal. Now that would be sick.

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07-09-2013, 09:41 PM
  #846
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I also wanted to add here that this strome to the wing thing reminds me of how people around here wanted Tavares on the wing hahahahahahahahahaha! This is not directed at you, of course. This discussion of moving this guy or that guy to wing triggered that ridiculous memory. Anyway, like I said earlier, I guess we will have to wait and see...
I still want JT on the wing. I think he is absolute garbage defensively and the first line would greatly benefit from someone who can play some defense in front of our own net and the corners. Add to the fact that he isn't great while play is already established in our zone, he is also a weak backchecker and likes to extend his shifts as often as possible (which leads to poor changes, and/or poor defensive play because he is tired). As good as JT is, his line needs to keep the puck out of our own net, otherwise all that work done in the offensive zone goes for naught.

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07-09-2013, 09:48 PM
  #847
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JT moving to wing was ridic-talk, but the presence of Tavares changes things for Strome. I've always thought Strome should stay at center, but I wouldn't mind him starting out on the wing IF and only IF he's the best option. Less responsibility and he has the offensive talent to be very successful with Tavares.

In the end, having a JT-Strome duo up the middle would be my most ideal scenario. Add in Nelson and we are looking very strong up the middle and that would be our backbone of the forward corps. Their versatility would also be a good thing because it gives the coaching staff options. Late in the 3rd, trailing by a goal... pull a Pittsburgh and have a Nelson-Tavares-Strome line to get you a goal. Now that would be sick.
I was going to point out that having a top three centre group of Tavares, strome, and Nelson would be an embarrassment of riches down the middle. These three guys could anchor the franchise for more than a decade. And it's not like they can never play together, like you said. Pp, a goalie pull situation, an attempt to get some mojo going on a rough night...whatever. I think they can all play centre for this team for a long time.

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07-09-2013, 09:49 PM
  #848
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http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=677363

Regarding Strome playing wing or center: I have long compared Strome to Logan Couture and think he should be treated similarly. Like Couture, Strome has gone back and completed his third and 4th seasons in CHL. Then played a handfull of games for his teams AHL affiliate. The following season Couture started the season in the AHL and played about half the season and just dominated. I expect Strome to do the same (start in Bridgeport this year and dominate). Once Couture came up, he got his feet wet playing his first few season on the wing of an established NHL Superstar Joe Thornton. Strome will have an opportunity to do the same. Once PMB gets hospitalized (by December/January) Strome will step in and become JT's winger for a couple of seasons. Then when he's established will go to the 2nd line Center behind JT as a 22 or 23 year old and form a two headed monster up the middle. Ryan Strome is a true center through and through, he will perform best there (eventually), but for his development, the best thing for him is to skate along side #91 for a little while until he can dominate on his own.

As for the chatter about Reinhart being ready. Not a snowballs chance that he makes the Islanders this season. I love that the kid is confident though, that's what you want.

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07-09-2013, 10:08 PM
  #849
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Since I'm getting hammered on two fronts from multiple people....

I will say, right now

1. Griffin Reinhart will be at least the second or third best defenseman in camp. Whether or not he makes it is anyones guess, but he's ready.... right now.

2. Ryan Strome will be moved to wing

If I'm wrong, I'll change my name to BeiberFan7 forever. Does anyone here have the stones to bet against me?

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07-09-2013, 10:24 PM
  #850
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Originally Posted by InformTheMasses View Post
http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=677363

Regarding Strome playing wing or center: I have long compared Strome to Logan Couture and think he should be treated similarly. Like Couture, Strome has gone back and completed his third and 4th seasons in CHL. Then played a handfull of games for his teams AHL affiliate. The following season Couture started the season in the AHL and played about half the season and just dominated. I expect Strome to do the same (start in Bridgeport this year and dominate). Once Couture came up, he got his feet wet playing his first few season on the wing of an established NHL Superstar Joe Thornton. Strome will have an opportunity to do the same. Once PMB gets hospitalized (by December/January) Strome will step in and become JT's winger for a couple of seasons. Then when he's established will go to the 2nd line Center behind JT as a 22 or 23 year old and form a two headed monster up the middle. Ryan Strome is a true center through and through, he will perform best there (eventually), but for his development, the best thing for him is to skate along side #91 for a little while until he can dominate on his own.

As for the chatter about Reinhart being ready. Not a snowballs chance that he makes the Islanders this season. I love that the kid is confident though, that's what you want.
The Couture comparison is very appropriate. The more and more I think about it, the Isles would be very wise to mirror that development path. Down the line, I think Strome will have the greatest impact as the #2C. As for right now, he is our 2nd most offensively talented player in the organization and we have an opening on RW - a position he claims to be comfortable in playing. Like San Jose had with Pavelski, the Isles have capable centers that can hold down the fort in Nielsen and eventually Nelson who has the upside of a very solid #2C. An eventual JT-Strome-Nelson-Cizikas combination up the middle would be the envy of the league.

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