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Old
07-09-2013, 06:55 PM
  #151
Miller Time
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
What they wanted to see from Subban had more to do with his blending in with teammates and attitude towards the team versus individual success as much as on ice play.
that was the excuse... but it ignored how well he has fit into every team/group he has played with.

also ignores that the rumored players to have most of a problem with Subban, Gill & Cole (and i think in both cases it was VASTLY exaggerated) were both moved/let go pretty quickly.

if that really was their/his rationale, it reeks of the kind of prejudice/bias that a guy like Subban unfortunately has to face in this industry, and an even worse reflection on their decision making abilities.

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Old
07-09-2013, 07:17 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
so...

- they weren't up to the cap: Check

- you're speculating on what they WILL be paying to other RFA's to be, based on what you THINK MacT will do (who is not the same GM who extended Hall/Eberle) : Check


in other words, you're entire point was speculative & inaccurate...

I get that, i just don't get the point
Point is simple: Use the CBA to your advantage or you are an idiot.

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Old
07-09-2013, 08:17 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by 1993 View Post
Point is simple: Use the CBA to your advantage or you are an idiot.
Indeed, that is what Edmonton is doing.

They have locked up their stars into their UFA years, and are paying less than they would command in the UFA market. Taylor Hall, for example, is locked through 2020 at the discount price of 6 million a year. They get 2 UFA years off him, during which he won't be making UFA money. They also have long term stability in team building in not roster and cap status.

Bergevin could have had Subban for ~5 million, now he will have to pay ~8 million. He failed to take advantage of the CBA.

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07-09-2013, 08:39 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Indeed, that is what Edmonton is doing.

They have locked up their stars into their UFA years, and are paying less than they would command in the UFA market. Taylor Hall, for example, is locked through 2020 at the discount price of 6 million a year. They get 2 UFA years off him, during which he won't be making UFA money. They also have long term stability in team building in not roster and cap status.

Bergevin could have had Subban for ~5 million, now he will have to pay ~8 million. He failed to take advantage of the CBA.
Lordy. Please get your parents to explain what a CBA is for the NHL.

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07-09-2013, 08:40 PM
  #155
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Geeze, those threads in the main board poll section on Canadian teams are really out to lunch.

Is it just me or is Ottawa crazy overrated already? And Leaf fans already putting themselves ahead of MTL after signing Clarkson to 5.25, love those 30-35 point guys for 7 years! Montreal has turned into the Rodney Dangerfield of NHL teams, no respect I tell ya!

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Old
07-09-2013, 08:56 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by 1993 View Post
Lordy. Please get your parents to explain what a CBA is for the NHL.
The NHL, including Bergevin, understands the CBA quite well.

Bergevin simply did not know that Subban was such great player, which he has admitted to, even if you defenders refuse to acknowledge that.

Do you actually think Galchenyuk will be offered 2 years @ 2.5 million per?

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07-09-2013, 08:59 PM
  #157
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If Subban wanted to leave he would have signed an offer sheet, rumours were that he had one and refused becasue he wants to be a Hab forever.

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Old
07-09-2013, 10:43 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Chili View Post
The question I ask, is did they inspire their teammates to be better beyond their own numbers?

Even players whose talents have faded are capable of that (Chelios would be a great example of a positive influence later in his career). I never got that impression with Lindros. He had great talent but he was not a great player for me.


I wish Rogie Vachon's name would still be mentioned when the HOF discussions come up.
There is no question that Lindros was a big time talent who made his linemates better, but inspire his teammates? No, I would say not. He seemed to piss them off more often than not. He left a lot of bad blood behind him in Philly and Quebec. I'm really on the fence about him then I think, hell, Bernie Federko is in the hall how could Lindros not be in?

I expect he will eventually make it in, but I'm okay with letting him sit awhile.

Glad that Cheli got in! He was one of my favorite Habs. I was so shocked when he got traded.

Maybe that's why I have thick skin when it comes to the McDonagh trade, so many great players have been traded out of Montreal it sickens me sometimes. *sigh*

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07-09-2013, 10:57 PM
  #159
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I saw someone mention 'the epitomy of a power forward'.

The name that comes to mind for me there is Gary Roberts. He was a nightmare to play against in the playoffs, when the refs hide the whistles.

And if injuries are reason to reevaluate a career, how many came back from his injuries?

And even at the end of his career, he was still a significant influence in Pittsburgh and then Tampa, when he was done (i.e. with Stamkos).

If Neely and Lindros are HOF worthy then so is Roberts in my opinion.

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Old
07-09-2013, 10:59 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Habsawce View Post
If Subban wanted to leave he would have signed an offer sheet, rumours were that he had one and refused becasue he wants to be a Hab forever.
If we want to be really harsh we could point out they are getting super excited about adding 8 1/2 million dollars worth of 3rd line forwards.

This board's consensus is wacked. Toronto is behind Montreal in ability.

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07-09-2013, 10:59 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by 1993 View Post
Lordy. Please get your parents to explain what a CBA is for the NHL.
I think you're the one that has a hard time understanding the situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
The NHL, including Bergevin, understands the CBA quite well.

Bergevin simply did not know that Subban was such great player, which he has admitted to, even if you defenders refuse to acknowledge that.

Do you actually think Galchenyuk will be offered 2 years @ 2.5 million per?
He already has a cap hit of 3.225M including all the bonuses.

Bergevin seems to be all over the place with his contract offers.

The one to MaxPac was amazing, the one to Price was high, the one to PK was flat out insulting, the ones to DD and Bouillon were completely unnecessary, the one to rumored one to Lecavalier is a little odd considering the offer to Briere, the Moen one didn't make a lot of sense either.

He's very tough to follow in terms of contracts.

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Old
07-09-2013, 11:11 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Chili View Post
I saw someone mention 'the epitomy of a power forward'.

The name that comes to mind for me there is Gary Roberts. He was a nightmare to play against in the playoffs, when the refs hide the whistles.

And if injuries are reason to reevaluate a career, how many came back from his injuries?

And even at the end of his career, he was still a significant influence in Pittsburgh and then Tampa, when he was done (i.e. with Stamkos).

If Neely and Lindros are HOF worthy then so is Roberts in my opinion.
qft


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Old
07-09-2013, 11:13 PM
  #163
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Of all the excuses of the Gomez trade, INCLUDING the one that "but it goes us Cammy and Gionta", the "but we wouldn't have Galchenyuk if we would have kept McDo" has to be a Emmy winning one....

Hey maybe we should not have picked Gallagher...or should have traded Pleks for nothing...or maybe we should NOT have picked Galchenyuk, or maybe we should have traded Subban for Jason Allison, 'cause that way, we would have gotten MacKinnon, Drouin, Barkov or Jones....I mean it works both ways.
Yep, you are spot on right here.
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
When Dick Duff got in...it just hurt the hall of fame so bad. Just like the retiring of jerseys, it should have been kept for the utmost elite. And now, it's mostly all you can eat.

Lindros getting in....maybe. But not yet. I'd give him somewhat of the Pete Rose treatment. There are rules in this league. And you are the #1 pick for a team and mister Lindros just refuses to go there, don't even wear the sweater and makes the league and one his team look bad? Just forget it was the infamous Nordiques that we love to hate but if it would have been Montreal....tell me how you would react right now?

Maybe he gets in, though I also happen to value length of career. But that's just me personnally. Not his fault? Well maybe, some will say it was though but that's another story. By the way, I would NOT have permitted Neely in as well. I have to be consequent. But now that Neely is in....you might have no choice. But let him ****ing wait. He's young. He can take it. While there are other stupidities going on like waiting for Burns to die to give him probably next year or the year after....Lindros can wait for what he did thinking he'd was greater than the league. And succeeded....
This is the other problem... the selection process.

No transparency at all and 18 guys on a committee... just a joke. Neely gets in on his 2nd try but Lindros has to wait? Tell me that doesn't reek of politics.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chili View Post
I saw someone mention 'the epitomy of a power forward'.

The name that comes to mind for me there is Gary Roberts. He was a nightmare to play against in the playoffs, when the refs hide the whistles.

And if injuries are reason to reevaluate a career, how many came back from his injuries?

And even at the end of his career, he was still a significant influence in Pittsburgh and then Tampa, when he was done (i.e. with Stamkos).

If Neely and Lindros are HOF worthy then so is Roberts in my opinion.
In my opinion none are HOF worthy if the HOF was done right. But the HOF for hockey is horrific. Totally inconsistent and subjective. Some guys who should get in take forever and others like Neely get in fairly quickly.

I'm not saying these guys didn't have HOF talent (esp Lindros) but they didn't have HOF careers. Lindros has the best case as he actually was the best player in the game for a time but when you look at baseball, guys like Don Mattingly (a player with a much better comparative career than Neely) who was arguably the best player in baseball for a short period of time doesn't sniff the HOF. Not because he wasn't good enough but because his career doesn't warrant it.

The HOF is all over the map and is among the worst halls in all of sports.

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Old
07-09-2013, 11:18 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
The NHL, including Bergevin, understands the CBA quite well.

Bergevin simply did not know that Subban was such great player, which he has admitted to, even if you defenders refuse to acknowledge that.

Do you actually think Galchenyuk will be offered 2 years @ 2.5 million per?
So Einstein, you give your players coming off rookie contracts who show an inkling of success a 6 year $6 million per contact and pat yourself on the back. You took one whole year of UFA away and then they will walk for bigger money elsewhere. This strategy will ensure your team will never be competitive and get the league back into the same problems they had before this recent lockout. Thankfully you are not our GM.

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Old
07-09-2013, 11:19 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Bergevin seems to be all over the place with his contract offers.

The one to MaxPac was amazing, the one to Price was high, the one to PK was flat out insulting, the ones to DD and Bouillon were completely unnecessary, the one to rumored one to Lecavalier is a little odd considering the offer to Briere, the Moen one didn't make a lot of sense either.

He's very tough to follow in terms of contracts.
I've got one one word for you.

Can you guess what it is?

Highlite below:

"Character"

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Old
07-09-2013, 11:20 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by 1993 View Post
So Einstein, you give your players coming off rookie contracts who show an inkling of success a 6 year $6 million per contact and pat yourself on the back.
It doesn't take Einstein to understand that Subban was a great player as late as the 2012 off-season.

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Old
07-09-2013, 11:20 PM
  #167
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Indeed, that is what Edmonton is doing.

They have locked up their stars into their UFA years, and are paying less than they would command in the UFA market. Taylor Hall, for example, is locked through 2020 at the discount price of 6 million a year. They get 2 UFA years off him, during which he won't be making UFA money. They also have long term stability in team building in not roster and cap status.

Bergevin could have had Subban for ~5 million, now he will have to pay ~8 million. He failed to take advantage of the CBA.
since when 6 Mil a year is a discount ?

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07-09-2013, 11:30 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
since when 6 Mil a year is a discount ?
43 players have higher cap hit than Hall. I will suggest it's a reasonable risk that he'll outplay that 6M salary seeing as he is just 21 and improvement form his current play isn't that far fetched.

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07-09-2013, 11:31 PM
  #169
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Yep, you are spot on right here.

This is the other problem... the selection process.

No transparency at all and 18 guys on a committee... just a joke. Neely gets in on his 2nd try but Lindros has to wait? Tell me that doesn't reek of politics.

In my opinion none are HOF worthy if the HOF was done right. But the HOF for hockey is horrific. Totally inconsistent and subjective. Some guys who should get in take forever and others like Neely get in fairly quickly.

I'm not saying these guys didn't have HOF talent (esp Lindros) but they didn't have HOF careers. Lindros has the best case as he actually was the best player in the game for a time but when you look at baseball, guys like Don Mattingly (a player with a much better comparative career than Neely) who was arguably the best player in baseball for a short period of time doesn't sniff the HOF. Not because he wasn't good enough but because his career doesn't warrant it.

The HOF is all over the map and is among the worst halls in all of sports.
Basically I agree with you. I'm not a fan of Neely or Lindros, they both had HOF talent but not careers, in my opinion. Like those two, Roberts had a devastating injury in his prime. The difference for me is what he has done since then especially off the ice (fitness and training). He has been a big influence on a number of players.

My favorite goaltender all time is Jacques Plante. His numbers speak for themselves but he had an even bigger influence off the ice with his book and coaching (see Bernie Parent). Same reason I have great respect for what Roberts has done for players.

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07-09-2013, 11:35 PM
  #170
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43 players have higher cap hit than Hall. I will suggest it's a reasonable risk that he'll outplay that 6M salary seeing as he is just 21 and improvement form his current play isn't that far fetched.
Someone tell Tambellini to quit posting on our thread.

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Old
07-09-2013, 11:49 PM
  #171
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I've got one one word for you.

Can you guess what it is?

Highlite below:

"Character"
I do understand the annoyance some posters may have over the mention of the word ''character'' by MB. I believe we were some of the few that wanted Semin here last summer and quite surprised Bergevin stated he had no interest in him when he was exactly what we were lacking in terms of skill.

However, I don't have a problem with making character the full front of your philosophy in terms of building a team. I just wished talent was also recognized as a need.

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Old
07-09-2013, 11:50 PM
  #172
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Originally Posted by 1993 View Post
So Einstein, you give your players coming off rookie contracts who show an inkling of success a 6 year $6 million per contact and pat yourself on the back. You took one whole year of UFA away and then they will walk for bigger money elsewhere. This strategy will ensure your team will never be competitive and get the league back into the same problems they had before this recent lockout. Thankfully you are not our GM.
An inkling?..
If you didn't see that PK was already one of the best young Dman in the whole NHL, how solid this kid was both offensively and defensively, then you have no business assessing talent. Heck, you're not even worthy of an opinion if you couldn't tell PK was as safe a bet can be.

I fail to see how giving PK somewhere between 4.5-6M for 6years would mean he leaves to the free agency after.
If PK wants to hit free agency, then he will sign until he becomes a free agent regardless of whether or not he signs a bridge deal.

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07-09-2013, 11:55 PM
  #173
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I know I keep bringing this up, but giving young players too much money too soon can derail careers, just look at Myers in Buffalo.

I know it's great for the cap but giving young players too long a contract before they reach their potential is a slippery slope.
Meh. I think that's a pretty baseless assumptions. If I had the time, I'd probably be able to give you a list of players that equally succeeded after signing for the big bucks early on. LA didn't hesitate to sign Voynov to a long-term contract after he started showing his true potential in the playoffs. Nashville didn't hesitate to lock up Josi long term after seeing how he improved last season. Will it work out? Maybe, maybe not, but it's absolutely worth the risk.

Subban is the kind of talent I would have been perfectly fine with giving him a long term contract right after his ELC.

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07-09-2013, 11:56 PM
  #174
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An inkling?..
If you didn't see that PK was already one of the best young Dman in the whole NHL, how solid this kid was both offensively and defensively, then you have no business assessing talent. Heck, you're not even worthy of an opinion if you couldn't tell PK was as safe a bet can be.

I fail to see how giving PK somewhere between 4.5-6M for 6years would mean he leaves to the free agency after.
If PK wants to hit free agency, then he will sign until he becomes a free agent regardless of whether or not he signs a bridge deal.
Bridge contract and RFA years are there to protect the GM's and owners from themselves. Nobody is saying PK did not deserve more money. It was actually refreshing to see a GM use the CBA properly. MB is trying to set a precedent for future bridge deals.

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07-10-2013, 12:06 AM
  #175
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Bridge contract and RFA years are there to protect the GM's and owners from themselves. Nobody is saying PK did not deserve more money. It was actually refreshing to see a GM use the CBA properly. MB is trying to set a precedent for future bridge deals.

You make no sense. Using the CBA properly as in throwing out of the window roughly 2 to 3M of cap-hit a year for the next X years?

I prefer having Subban 5M x 7 rather than 7M x 7, on various degrees.

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