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Trade and Proposals Thread XXXVI: MacT, send more help!

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07-09-2013, 11:16 PM
  #126
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Dubnyk played fine last season. Would I have preferred an upgrade like Luongo? Sure. But Dubnyk kept us in many games when we were outshot badly. He falls into the 'an upgrade would be nice, but it's down on the priority list' category.

We do need another LW for sure. We can't go into the season with the left side we have. Shame Hartikainen signed in the KHL, but oh well. We need a player here, and it should be someone with size that can play in the top 9.

If I were GM, Vanek, Ruutu, Kulemin, Penner, is who I'd target, and in that order. I'd be willing to part with Hemsky, N Schultz, any picks, and prospects not named Nurse or Klefbom. If none of those teams were interested in moving those guys for a package involving those assets, then I would just sign Penner and be done with it. Because the D and C also could use work, although if those had to happen during the season, it would probably be ok in terms of our playoff chances.

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07-09-2013, 11:17 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by KarmaPolice View Post
My point exactly. So you trade the pick to fill those holes. This team should be in the playoffs before Nurse is even ready to play in the NHL, let alone be an impact player. If it does take longer than another 3 years to get into the play-offs, then just shoot me right now.
I am not talking getting into the playoffs, as I think this team is on course to maybe do it next year or pretty damn sure the year after, but if they play their cards right and don't rush it in about 3 years from now I think the Oilers will be talked about as perennial cup contenders like Chi, Bos, Pit and LA are now.

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07-09-2013, 11:17 PM
  #128
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I really hope Edmonton can sign Penner and get another 3rd line center or winger for Hemsky.

I was angry when Mac-T was hired, but that doesn't mean that I want to see Edmonton fail to put a competitive team on the ice next year.

I really don't mind having Gordon on the third line, but we need to get ahold of another center with similar capabilities. If RNH or Gagner get hurt it won't be the end of the world if Gordon is winning face-offs and going to the net for a couple of weeks. In the event of this happening it wouldn't be the end of the world if Lander came up to play 4th line center.

Who knows, maybe we'd bring Arcobello up to fill in for an injuried top 6 center.

For the Jones signing, I don't mind having him back to play on the forth line, but he isn't the kind of guy who's going to win me over as a third line winger. He doesn't bring it often enough IMO.

Yes, it's only July 10th, but there aren't a lot of options left via free agency and it seems to me that the teams Edmonton is bothering to bolster their roster are the teams least likely to do business with us. Most notably, Philly. They need to upgrade their blueline, not downgrade. People say that they're over the cap, but Pronger's contract won't count against the salary cap if his on the LTIR, correct?

I also see a lot of people hoping that we sign Dustin Penner. While I do agree he's the best option left on the free agent market, I'm not convinced that he'd be incredibly effective. On his contract year he didn't get to play a lot of minutes, but his stats were still very underwhelming.

I wouldn't want to see Penner signed for any more than a single season. His stats in the playoffs were even less impressive this year. He could be a 3rd line stop gap measure, but nothing more than that.

There's also been a lot of talk of Edmonton needing better options on the blueline and if people want to think that way I'm almost certain that they need to open upto the idea of losing Smid. No, not Petry. Smid. We've got so many left handed d-men up the yingyang on our team in in our system that it's downright disturbing.

I'm really in favour of Mac-T dealing our first rounder, but not until Mac-T makes another move or two to fix our bottom 6 depth beforehand. There's no point in giving up our first rounder unless we know it's going to pay off for us by the end of the year.

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07-09-2013, 11:18 PM
  #129
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This doesn't jive with what is on their board. Go to their Cowen thread and you will see Sens fans clamouring to get him signed to a contract close to what Hamonic got.
Yea a lot of them seem fairly high on Cowen. Makes sense considering he's an RFA, they want to have the guy signed. Also after losing Alfie they really seem to want to lock down what they've got.

In the "Are we still missing something?" thread, which I was reading last night not everyone was so high on Cowen.

The hip surgery is a little scary imo. For a big dman that's supposed to be physical I could see an injury like that really messing with his game. I wouldn't be upset if we targeted Cowen, but he's not the answer we're looking for on D. We need top pairing help if anything, we've got loads of top4/top6 guys right now.

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07-09-2013, 11:21 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by KarmaPolice View Post
My point exactly. So you trade the pick to fill those holes. This team should be in the playoffs before Nurse is even ready to play in the NHL, let alone be an impact player. If it does take longer than another 3 years to get into the play-offs, then just shoot me right now.
So who do you trade Nurse for?

MacT tried to trade #7 for Schneider.....what makes you think he didn't try for other players?

It's easy to sit here and say do so and so but these GMs are experts in their fields. Their jobs are not to do something foolish. Also they have short shelf lives so very few will trade productive assets for prospects unless their are extenuating circumstances (salary cap, soon to be ufa, etc). Very few markets would put up with rebuild (even for a season). So again very simple to say do X but you have to wait for right situation.

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07-09-2013, 11:26 PM
  #131
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Yea a lot of them seem fairly high on Cowen. Makes sense considering he's an RFA, they want to have the guy signed. Also after losing Alfie they really seem to want to lock down what they've got.

In the "Are we still missing something?" thread, which I was reading last night not everyone was so high on Cowen.

The hip surgery is a little scary imo. For a big dman that's supposed to be physical I could see an injury like that really messing with his game. I wouldn't be upset if we targeted Cowen, but he's not the answer we're looking for on D. We need top pairing help if anything, we've got loads of top4/top6 guys right now.
I think you need to watch Cowen more. Sens fans deem him an untouchable and have for a few seasons. He has top pairing potential. And worrying about his hip? The guy came back from it, played in the regular season and playoffs. So no clue why you keep talking about it. Nothing indicates its going to be a recurring problem or that their will be side effects. He also totally destroyed Skinner on a monster hit (in his first few games back) so doubt it impacts his game. He was very physical after his return

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07-09-2013, 11:29 PM
  #132
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The time for the Oilers to win is not NOW, keep in mind the sore of this team is in its teens and early early 20's, Oilers fans including myself are just becoming impatient, the time for this team to contend is 14/15 season and moving forward, I am more happy that Mac t didn't rush the rebuild and trade away any of the stars for quick fixes, then anything. Lets not jeopardize years of contending for a few years of making the playoffs..
The window for contending is very small and very short-lived in today's NHL. If the Oilers don't start making the playoffs, and soon, then this group of players will never contend for the Stanley Cup. Ever.

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07-09-2013, 11:37 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by doubledown99 View Post
I think you need to watch Cowen more. Sens fans deem him an untouchable and have for a few seasons. He has top pairing potential. And worrying about his hip? The guy came back from it, played in the regular season and playoffs. So no clue why you keep talking about it. Nothing indicates its going to be a recurring problem or that their will be side effects. He also totally destroyed Skinner on a monster hit (in his first few games back) so doubt it impacts his game. He was very physical after his return
You're right, like I said I didn't watch Cowen this year, maybe once or twice. He looked like a stud in the past, and the hip injury (and previously reconstructive knee surgery) didn't seem to affect him. Regardless, I don't see the Sens letting him walk, they're going to match any offer that isn't completely insane.

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07-09-2013, 11:41 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by doubledown99 View Post
So who do you trade Nurse for?

MacT tried to trade #7 for Schneider.....what makes you think he didn't try for other players?

It's easy to sit here and say do so and so but these GMs are experts in their fields. Their jobs are not to do something foolish. Also they have short shelf lives so very few will trade productive assets for prospects unless their are extenuating circumstances (salary cap, soon to be ufa, etc). Very few markets would put up with rebuild (even for a season). So again very simple to say do X but you have to wait for right situation.
That's why I said package him up, if necessary. I'm not a GM, so I don't know what's available for what. But I do have reasonable faith in MacT.

I have a ton of faith in Klefbom, Marincin, Musil, Gernat, Fedun, etc.
So I don't see the need for Nurse, and he's going to be a long ways away from having any impact. But if there was nothing decent on the table available for him, even when bundled with PRV or similar asset, then so be it. But I hope this team is making the playoffs before Nurse is even in consideration as a guy to play in the top 4. Going by needs, this team had much bigger needs than another Dman prospect that is years away.

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07-09-2013, 11:44 PM
  #135
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Everybody is talking about offer sheets for Clifford.....why not Cowen? 7 yrs for $28 mil and have a huge signing bonus. If Sens are a budget team a huge signing bonus would be difficult to stomach for them.

Cowen would impact this teams fortunes a lot more than Clifford would
Sens would match that, I like the Clifford idea a lot better at just north of a $3 million cap hit I think L.A. would very seriously consider walking away and unlike other teams that seem prone to attack, most of them have one player who isn't so important you could see them parting with to make the necessary room. The Kings all of their key members are signed for relatively reasonable contracts, Jarret Stoll is probably the closest to being overpaid, and I can't see them sacrificing any of their core players (Jarret Stoll included) to keep Clifford at that price.

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07-09-2013, 11:44 PM
  #136
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My point exactly. So you trade the pick to fill those holes. This team should be in the playoffs before Nurse is even ready to play in the NHL, let alone be an impact player. If it does take longer than another 3 years to get into the play-offs, then just shoot me right now.
The thing about this team when I looked at young teams who won championships ; which is only fair when doing comparative analysis (granted there is only perhaps 2 of this new era; you can't really look at L.a. or Boston because L.a. has Carter, Richards, Kopitar ,brown, quick; all over agers and boston has bergeron, krejci, chara, thomas again all over agers, same for Detroit, and many others there core was older)

Both Chicago/Pittsburgh had the youngest core groups when they both won respectively

Pittsburgh
Goaltending; Fleury (shaky alot but he buckled down when he had to)
D-man; Letang, gonchar, Scuderi, Gill, orpik, hell i even remember phillipe boucher
(this was known for the offense of gonchar, but it was just a blue collar d group similar to what L.a.'s is now, (you have Doughty and voynov, but greene, regier, scuderi, are your stay at home d-man) same as this group
forwards; crosby, malkin, staal, kunitz, talbot, fedotenko (staal was the guy who people forget probably the worst transaction this team made trading yet never talked about)



Chicago
Goaltending: Niemi (absolutely outstanding in all series; i would go as far as say you need a goalie of his caliber for the calmness he gave to these guys in there first quest for the cup.

Forwards: kane, toews, hossa, sharp, ladd, byfuglien, versteeg, then the depth of burrish, bolland & eager (yes even eager scored)
probably the deepest core of offensive stars a tean has ever had; not for over whelming quality but certainly depth

d-man: keith, seabrook, hjalmarsson, campbell (for years put down for a big contract was a force) boynton the top 4 were just outstanding keith had his mistakes as did all of them but 4 #2-3 d-man at the time was a heck of a core

Each of these teams had remarkably more depth than the Oilers, so can the oilers accept this fallacy that you have to win in 2-3 years with the core team you assembled is the stupidest thing ever. Build your core, and have interchangeable parts to win more championships. Nurse is the core, like it or not

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07-09-2013, 11:45 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by OnTheBrink View Post
I am not talking getting into the playoffs, as I think this team is on course to maybe do it next year or pretty damn sure the year after, but if they play their cards right and don't rush it in about 3 years from now I think the Oilers will be talked about as perennial cup contenders like Chi, Bos, Pit and LA are now.
I don't think Nurse will be needed to become the team you and I are hoping for. An impact vet signed for 4-5 years would theoretically have much more of a positive impact into getting to that place.

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07-09-2013, 11:45 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Moonlapse Vertigo View Post
The window for contending is very small and very short-lived in today's NHL. If the Oilers don't start making the playoffs, and soon, then this group of players will never contend for the Stanley Cup. Ever.
are u kidding? the blackhawks started contending in 2008 and won in 2009. 5 years after starting to contend (and by contend i mean in conference finals) they are still going strong and probably have another 5 years if not more. this is just fear mongering.

edit: won in 2010 sry point still stands though.

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07-09-2013, 11:47 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by BlowbyBlow View Post
The thing about this team when I looked at young teams who won championships ; which is only fair when doing comparative analysis (granted there is only perhaps 2 of this new era; you can't really look at L.a. or Boston because L.a. has Carter, Richards, Kopitar ,brown, quick; all over agers and boston has bergeron, krejci, chara, thomas again all over agers, same for Detroit, and many others there core was older)

Both Chicago/Pittsburgh had the youngest core groups when they both won respectively

Pittsburgh
Goaltending; Fleury (shaky alot but he buckled down when he had to)
D-man; Letang, gonchar, Scuderi, Gill, orpik, hell i even remember phillipe boucher
(this was known for the offense of gonchar, but it was just a blue collar d group similar to what L.a.'s is now, (you have Doughty and voynov, but greene, regier, scuderi, are your stay at home d-man) same as this group
forwards; crosby, malkin, staal, kunitz, talbot, fedotenko (staal was the guy who people forget probably the worst transaction this team made trading yet never talked about)



Chicago
Goaltending: Niemi (absolutely outstanding in all series; i would go as far as say you need a goalie of his caliber for the calmness he gave to these guys in there first quest for the cup.

Forwards: kane, toews, hossa, sharp, ladd, byfuglien, versteeg, then the depth of burrish, bolland & eager (yes even eager scored)
probably the deepest core of offensive stars a tean has ever had; not for over whelming quality but certainly depth

d-man: keith, seabrook, hjalmarsson, campbell (for years put down for a big contract was a force) boynton the top 4 were just outstanding keith had his mistakes as did all of them but 4 #2-3 d-man at the time was a heck of a core

Each of these teams had remarkably more depth than the Oilers, so can the oilers accept this fallacy that you have to win in 2-3 years with the core team you assembled is the stupidest thing ever. Build your core, and have interchangeable parts to win more championships. Nurse is the core, like it or not
They all had very key vets, too. The Hossa's and Gonchar's helped those teams a lot more than any 22 year old did. Nurse isn't even on the team yet--how you can call him a 'core' player is beyond me.

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07-09-2013, 11:52 PM
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonlapse Vertigo View Post
The window for contending is very small and very short-lived in today's NHL. If the Oilers don't start making the playoffs, and soon, then this group of players will never contend for the Stanley Cup. Ever.
If they don't start making the playoffs, it's going to be harder to:
a) Retain the services of players. Some might even demand out (even younger 'key' guys), and;
b) Sign key UFAs to put us over the 'top.'

So it's important this team starts making the playoffs for many reasons.
And this isn't a post disagreeing with you--I'm just adding to what you said, basically.

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07-09-2013, 11:54 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by KarmaPolice View Post
That's why I said package him up, if necessary. I'm not a GM, so I don't know what's available for what. But I do have reasonable faith in MacT.

I have a ton of faith in Klefbom, Marincin, Musil, Gernat, Fedun, etc.
So I don't see the need for Nurse, and he's going to be a long ways away from having any impact. But if there was nothing decent on the table available for him, even when bundled with PRV or similar asset, then so be it. But I hope this team is making the playoffs before Nurse is even in consideration as a guy to play in the top 4. Going by needs, this team had much bigger needs than another Dman prospect that is years away.
I see your point in many respects, my feeling is that all teams seem to make a defining ufa transaction or trade (take chicago's hossa, and sharp, niemi deals); no need to talk about drafting guys like kane, toews. l.a. got there richards, carter, quick deals. Nonetheless a deal that cost them nothing.

I am not cherry picking but i took 2 forwards and a goalie (because i feel this team is still 2 high end depth forwards and a goalie away from a championship) I think the d-man in the system will progress fine.

Does this team have a Quick/Niemi or some unknown that they have to give little to acquire. Is there a ufa to take them over. Alot of over agers this season Iginla, Alfie, Jagr, Hedjuk. goalies; Thomas? schneider who else? Quite honestly I see free agency as becoming the bin for players other teams don't want. Teams identify cores play that player, and get rid of expendables. That's every team very few "Philly like" teams with moving conveyor belts that move players and thus you can take advantage of them.

Whats the point to make a trade just to make a trade? I seen schneider play in playoff games he hasn't proved ever to me once he is a #1

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07-10-2013, 12:04 AM
  #142
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They all had very key vets, too. The Hossa's and Gonchar's helped those teams a lot more than any 22 year old did. Nurse isn't even on the team yet--how you can call him a 'core' player is beyond me.
I chose those 2 teams because those were teams that didn't have a hall of fame - dman leading the way in Lidstrom, or Pronger, Neidermeyer and they didn't have a sakic, forsberg, yzerman type who was going to lead the ship.

i would say gonchar, orpik, scuderi, fedotenko for Pittsburgh, and campbell, hossa niemi for chicago respectively were the guys. With the exception of gonchar and hossa (all star caliber) there wasn't a flurry of guys to show the ropes to the younger guys and they weren't enriched with huge amounts of success either.

face it if your the second d-man pick in arguable the deepest draft of a decade (not me calling that either) and your potentially a #2-3 d man on a team that by default with probably make you the #1 than your the core.

if you took a poll of oilers dman on the roster and on the farm club who would be #1,2,3 ect on the big club in 2-3 years your going to see nurses name come because he has a high ceiling. Arguably behind klefbom, he is the teams #2 d-man so yea i say franchise already. If this team had a keith, seabrook, doughty, ekman larsson, pietrelangelo, karlsson, larsen (nJ) then he wouldn't be considered but that day isn't here yet.

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07-10-2013, 12:16 AM
  #143
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I know it's still "early in the off-season", but if the Oilers haven't made any moves by next week, the likelihood of them making any more moves this off-season drops off quite a bit.

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07-10-2013, 12:17 AM
  #144
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Originally Posted by Moonlapse Vertigo View Post
The window for contending is very small and very short-lived in today's NHL. If the Oilers don't start making the playoffs, and soon, then this group of players will never contend for the Stanley Cup. Ever.
that statement is almost taken verbatim, has very little grounds. do you seriously think that keith, toews, seabrook, and kane think they have only 2-3 years yet to win.

Not bloodly likely!!! Jim nill said a very important thing that people should take note. He said you identify the core age of your group and that's how you build.

Lets say for arguments sake d-man its much older (taking longer to develop and be established vs a forward who has less of a curve)

Wouldn't you say that a team like Edmonton probably is closer to being a chicago type team in terms of core age of group, vs a L.A. or boston team.

Why would we build a team for short term success like L.A. or Boston have done since they have older cores, when we already know we have ayounger core group that has high reward in comparison to those teams.

I am not a fan boy of prospects either but unless you can do a 2-1 swap thats going to give you depth on any position why do lateral trades, or backward trades.

Also if this team is building to win in a 2-3 year period vs a 10 year period like Chicago then they have even failed worse.

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07-10-2013, 12:22 AM
  #145
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I know it's still "early in the off-season", but if the Oilers haven't made any moves by next week, the likelihood of them making any more moves this off-season drops off quite a bit.
Adding a 2/3 LW and another dman at least makes us somewhat respectable. I would argue that for the Oilers, those 2 acquisitions alone would be "bold" considering our track record.

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07-10-2013, 12:50 AM
  #146
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The need for another centre and top 6 winger are pressing needs

Way too thin at C... We saw what happened last year when centers go down...RNH Gagner Gordon and Lander isn't enough

And Hall Mps Smyth is awful depth at LW


MacT has no choice but to upgrade

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07-10-2013, 12:52 AM
  #147
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are u kidding? the blackhawks started contending in 2008 and won in 2009. 5 years after starting to contend (and by contend i mean in conference finals) they are still going strong and probably have another 5 years if not more. this is just fear mongering.

edit: won in 2010 sry point still stands though.
don't bring reason to an argument hahaha

that's my whole point teams who have short windows had cores that had longer to develop. Why would a team who has a young core try develop in the vain of another team who is older.

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07-10-2013, 12:58 AM
  #148
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Originally Posted by BlowbyBlow View Post
that statement is almost taken verbatim, has very little grounds. do you seriously think that keith, toews, seabrook, and kane think they have only 2-3 years yet to win.

Not bloodly likely!!! Jim nill said a very important thing that people should take note. He said you identify the core age of your group and that's how you build.

Lets say for arguments sake d-man its much older (taking longer to develop and be established vs a forward who has less of a curve)

Wouldn't you say that a team like Edmonton probably is closer to being a chicago type team in terms of core age of group, vs a L.A. or boston team.

Why would we build a team for short term success like L.A. or Boston have done since they have older cores, when we already know we have ayounger core group that has high reward in comparison to those teams.

I am not a fan boy of prospects either but unless you can do a 2-1 swap thats going to give you depth on any position why do lateral trades, or backward trades.

Also if this team is building to win in a 2-3 year period vs a 10 year period like Chicago then they have even failed worse.
The only thing that Edmonton and Chicago have in common are the similarities in age between our young core and Toews/Kane. Other than that, the two teams aren't comparable at all. Dale Tallon augmented his roster with older, more experienced players to ease the transition for Toews and Kane and they also had Seabrook and Keith who wallowed for years on bad teams.

If talent alone wins Cups then Crosby and Malkin would have four or five by now. All of this talk about contending for a long period of time is a pipedream. If the Oilers ever start making the playoffs consistently they'll likely get one good shot and they'd better make it count.

The Blackhawks are a special group and their management team is impeccable. They aren't the norm. Especially in today's league.

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07-10-2013, 01:02 AM
  #149
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I would do Dubnyk for Luongo straight up if Luongo decides he doesn't want to play for the Nucks, thereby forcing the Nucks hand. We get into the playoffs with Lu. With Dubnyk, we're a bottom feeder again with the team MacT has assembled.

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07-10-2013, 01:41 AM
  #150
Petes2424
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s7ark View Post
Dubnyk played fine last season. Would I have preferred an upgrade like Luongo? Sure. But Dubnyk kept us in many games when we were outshot badly. He falls into the 'an upgrade would be nice, but it's down on the priority list' category.

We do need another LW for sure. We can't go into the season with the left side we have. Shame Hartikainen signed in the KHL, but oh well. We need a player here, and it should be someone with size that can play in the top 9.

If I were GM, Vanek, Ruutu, Kulemin, Penner, is who I'd target, and in that order. I'd be willing to part with Hemsky, N Schultz, any picks, and prospects not named Nurse or Klefbom. If none of those teams were interested in moving those guys for a package involving those assets, then I would just sign Penner and be done with it. Because the D and C also could use work, although if those had to happen during the season, it would probably be ok in terms of our playoff chances.
The way things are shaking out here in UFA, that LW still might have to come in a trade. What I would do if Im hoping to acquire someone via trade later in the summer, and people might disagree, is sign Mason Raymond immediately. They have plenty of room under the cap and he can plug in there if need be. If you're able to acquire a guy via trade, he moves right down to the third line. He's versatile and versatile guys are pretty valuable on a team that is probably going to mix and match a lot in a year like this. Yak has to play RW. He was just to explosive there not to. The only other real option I see in UFA to slide into that 2nd line is, and dont laugh, Vinnie Prospal. He's still being paid by TB, and he showed a ton of loyalty to a team like Columbus, who looks like they're not resigning him. You'd have to give him the two years though. He still produces, he's a professional who competes at a high level and he still can score.

I've looked at a lot of teams and who they may be forced to move. There's some guys out there but seriously, unless it's a Steen or Perron, why really make the trade. The Oilers arent the deepest in their prospect pool so giving away might not be the smartest move right now. I'd honestly like to see how Prospal would fit in with the team. I think it would surprise some people.

On the trade front the only guys I'd really make a BIG play for are James Neal or Vanek. I would put Clifford on that list but in acquiring him, you'd be letting he and Raymond fight it out for that 2nd spot.

There's still many options at that left wing spot. Moving Hemsky might help in acquiring a guy like Vanek but really not any of the others. They're more salary related and as we know, that $5 million isnt going to help going the other way unless it's a Buffalo type team.

One team that we've heard some rumblings about is Florida. They would probably take Hemsky. Could they get Fleischman and Kopecky in a deal? Kopecky is a pretty versatile guy himself and had 15 goals last season. Fleishmann kind of regressed a bit but he could be a very good 2nd line secondary scoring guy. Both player might be had for Hemsky straight up.

Still a lot of fun speculating. I HATE Mason Raymond. Generally though if I hate a guy, I'd like him on my team. The Kopecky one is very interesting. He brings a lot of toughness along with a scoring touch. Something they dont have a lot of.

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