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Trade and Proposals Thread XXXVI: MacT, send more help!

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07-10-2013, 10:19 AM
  #201
Petro Points
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CupofOil View Post
Dealing one of the Big 5 NOW would be stupid. I'm saying if there's little progress again next season, i think it might be time to deal one of the core guys to balance out the roster. Next season should be playoffs or bust IMO or at the very least a battle for the 8th spot up until the very end. It's already Hall and Eberle's 4rd season coming up and this team hasn't even gotten out of the bottom 7 of the league yet. That's completely and utterly unacceptable. The team absolutely HAS TO take a big step forward next season and with the roster as is, that looks doubtful at this point.
What is there to balance out?
We got a Dman, a C, a LW and 2 RWs .. Pretty balanced if you ask me.. Sure we can trade away a RW for another 2nd line or another Dman but that wont guarantee us anything. Trading the 'big 5' will never net us a fair return.. MacT needs to be creative and bold here. Did we miss out on Seguin and Ryan ? maybeee ... but so did 28 other GMs.

Trading away a core peice will never let you take a big step forward.. it'll be a side step most likely.

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07-10-2013, 10:19 AM
  #202
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Originally Posted by DousedInOil View Post
For everyone praising Dallas, their bottom six looks like this:


Cole-Eakin-Chiasson
Roussel-Fiddler-MacDermid/Garbutt

If we add 2 more third liners via Hemsky and trades, we aren't exactly far off.

Paajarvi > Cole
Gordon > Eakins
Jones > Macdermid
Brown > Garbutt
Joesnuu = Roussel

Get a guy like Boyle or Smith on return for Hemsky then trade for Clifford.

Clifford-Gordon-Paajarvi
Jones-Smith-Brown
Joesnuu-Smyth
I'd take Eakin over Gordon in a heartbeat.

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07-10-2013, 10:20 AM
  #203
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You can't win with your 4 best players all being so young.

But the solution isn't to trade your 4 best players sheesh.

This team isn't going to win on the backs of trades and free agent signings.

It's going to win on the growth and maturity of Hall, Hopkins, Yakupov, Eberle.

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07-10-2013, 10:24 AM
  #204
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Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
It's not really long-term to look one year down the road.
Well one year is still a long time... Worrying about no goalie signed after this season or getting a rental for a year is not going to get us anywhere.. Teams trade away 1sts for 20 games of rentals at deadline all the time.. Getting Vanek for a full year would be well worth it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OilerFan4Life View Post
Listen I don't want him either. Just telling you he will be an Oiler
Well.. hopefully the guy can play LW or hopefully Vanek is coming along with him

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07-10-2013, 10:26 AM
  #205
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Originally Posted by OilerFan4Life View Post
Listen I don't want him either. Just telling you he will be an Oiler
If you are basing this off something you know, please PM me. If this is just a gut feeling then please specify it as such.

Edit: Removed original post because I haven't heard from OilerFan4Life. If the poster gets back to me I will restore them.


Last edited by s7ark: 07-10-2013 at 11:13 AM.
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07-10-2013, 10:28 AM
  #206
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I was just thinking, in terms of bottom 6 forwards... Look at the Chicago's and Detroits in the NHL. Detroit's 3rd and 4th lines are generally made up of players developed in their system (Helm, Nyquist, Miller, Emmerton). Chicago's 3rd and 4th lines (Shaw, Saad, Bickell, Bolland, etc.) were all developed in their system as well.

I think we can build a solid 3rd and 4th lines with free agents and trades, but I don't think it's a coincidence that two of the more successful franchises in the NHL develop pretty good 3rd and 4th line players in their own farm systems.

Maybe we have that in some of our recent picks, but the lack of foresight from Tambellini regarding the importance of bottom 6 forwards is astonishing. I don't know if he underplayed the importance of our bottom 6, or just... didn't want to make a trade or signing to address it.

I will say that I'm excited to see Joensuu in out bottom 6 though. I think he's the perfect fit.. Has a bit of offensive capability with some size and toughness.

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07-10-2013, 10:33 AM
  #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Petro Points View Post
What is there to balance out?
We got a Dman, a C, a LW and 2 RWs .. Pretty balanced if you ask me.. Sure we can trade away a RW for another 2nd line or another Dman but that wont guarantee us anything. Trading the 'big 5' will never net us a fair return.. MacT needs to be creative and bold here. Did we miss out on Seguin and Ryan ? maybeee ... but so did 28 other GMs.

Trading away a core peice will never let you take a big step forward.. it'll be a side step most likely.
The Oilers have one of the most unbalanced rosters in the league. The one strength of their team is skill, everything else is lacking.
Too soft, weak bottom 6, very few 2 way and physical players, a bunch of #3-#6 Dmen, not enough puckmovers on the blueline along with shaky goaltending.
What the Oilers do have is highly skilled wingers, a potential #1C and potential on the blueline with Schultz, Petry and eventually Klefbom. It's all question marks at this point.

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07-10-2013, 10:33 AM
  #208
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Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
I don't know what it is, but I just can't seem to get on board with Vanek. Maybe if we were dealt one of the kids, but I just can't see the fit with those 4 wingers on a team.

Oddly enough the Clifford trade I thought about the exact same myself last night
.
I think this type of deal is fair, we don't burn a bridge via offer-sheet and we get a solid 3rd liner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Petro Points View Post
Vanek would be a 1 yr rental IMO.. He will be MIN Wild after next year if we go by most reports.
Having said that I would still trade our 2014 first for him..

Vanek-RNH-Yakupov would be a nice 2nd line.
I don't see why Vanek wouldn't be a possibility to extend with the Oilers. He signed with the team once before and the team is much more interesting now than it was back then.

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07-10-2013, 10:33 AM
  #209
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Originally Posted by workedforme View Post
I'd take Eakin over Gordon in a heartbeat.
Eakins has played 78 games while Gordon has played 486. He is better defensively and on the dot. But I guess to each his own.

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07-10-2013, 10:37 AM
  #210
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What's with this board's obsession with Vanek and Perron? We get them and our top 6 is just as soft if not softer. Big=/=physical, see: Paajarvi, Magnus.

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07-10-2013, 10:40 AM
  #211
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Originally Posted by Trafalgar Law View Post
What's with this board's obsession with Vanek and Perron? We get them and our top 6 is just as soft if not softer. Big=/=physical, see: Paajarvi, Magnus.
I am not as big on Perron because of injury concerns, but in terms of Vanek, it's because 40 goals trumps playing tough. At least to me.

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07-10-2013, 10:40 AM
  #212
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I don't see guys like Acton/Larsen/Hamilton being on the Oilers except in cases of tons of injuries.

Belov is a longshot as well, but could surprise as a bottom pairing guy.

The reality is the Oilers made a lateral move at 3C, upgraded D slightly, and MAYBE the backup goaltender position slightly.

Basically nothing major, so expecting much improvement is awfully optimistic at this point.

Lots of time for things to change still, and maybe the natural progression of players + a new coach, will help a touch. It would be incredibly shocking to see this team near the playoffs next year as it stands.

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07-10-2013, 10:42 AM
  #213
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Originally Posted by doulos View Post
I don't see guys like Acton/Larsen/Hamilton being on the Oilers except in cases of tons of injuries.

Belov is a longshot as well, but could surprise as a bottom pairing guy.

The reality is the Oilers made a lateral move at 3C, upgraded D slightly, and MAYBE the backup goaltender position slightly.

Basically nothing major, so expecting much improvement is awfully optimistic at this point.

Lots of time for things to change still, and maybe the natural progression of players + a new coach, will help a touch. It would be incredibly shocking to see this team near the playoffs next year as it stands.
Is it? When the core of your team is younger than their prime years just having time pass will improve the team.

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07-10-2013, 10:43 AM
  #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CupofOil View Post
The Oilers have one of the most unbalanced rosters in the league. The one strength of their team is skill, everything else is lacking.
Too soft, weak bottom 6, very few 2 way and physical players, a bunch of #3-#6 Dmen, not enough puckmovers on the blueline along with shaky goaltending.
What the Oilers do have is highly skilled wingers, a potential #1C and potential on the blueline with Schultz, Petry and eventually Klefbom. It's all question marks at this point.
so pretty much the strength is skill and weakness is youth\inexperience.

Well we added Ryan Hamilton 6'2 220lbs, Ryan Jones and Gordon. MacT is looking to add a couple more pieces. Then we have Eager who might play like an NHLer again.. Joensuu was also signed.
Belov and Ference will be hard to play against on the back end.

Like you said a lot of question marks due to lack of NHL experience but to call it 'the most unblanced team' is not correct..

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07-10-2013, 10:45 AM
  #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Powder View Post
I think this type of deal is fair, we don't burn a bridge via offer-sheet and we get a solid 3rd liner.



I don't see why Vanek wouldn't be a possibility to extend with the Oilers. He signed with the team once before and the team is much more interesting now than it was back then.
I think it was more the $50 million dollars he was offered, and not the huge interest in playing for us.

Vanek probably isnt a guy we could afford to extend with extensions coming up for RNH, Yak, and Schultz as well as current cap hits of Hall and Eberle. We would likely have to lowball him and he would test free agency. Vanek is minimum $6 million on the open market.

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07-10-2013, 10:47 AM
  #216
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Originally Posted by Trafalgar Law View Post
What's with this board's obsession with Vanek and Perron? We get them and our top 6 is just as soft if not softer. Big=/=physical, see: Paajarvi, Magnus.
41 pts in 38 GP last year.. A bigger LW who is somehow available and wont cost us an arm and a leg..

The guy is good enough to bump Hall down to 2nd line. If he is available, MacT should be all over it.

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07-10-2013, 10:48 AM
  #217
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Stafford is another guy that management was hot to trot on back at the '04 draft and they've been coveting him ever since, for some reason

he's not overly physical despite his size and Hemsky is probably a better player at this point

no thanks to Stafford

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07-10-2013, 10:51 AM
  #218
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Originally Posted by s7ark View Post
Is it? When the core of your team is younger than their prime years just having time pass will improve the team.
Players don't improve in a linear fashion. Some players don't improve at all. Some to less of a degree than expected, and some more. Some players get injured. There are so many factors here that just expecting young players to magically be better the next season is a setup for a massive letdown.

Yes, it could happen, and all things being equal, there is a good chance the young guys will be marginally better next season.

However, will Taylor Hall be much better than last year? Tough to say, he was VERY good.

How will Nugent-Hopkins fare after his surgery - lots of questions there.

Is Eberle going to get back to his stupid shooting % of 2 years ago? History would say that the chances are low. However, he could improve in other areas as well.

Is Yakupov going to suffer the mythical sophomore slump or will he be one of the guys who actually improves in Year 2? Time will tell.

So we can see that there is a chance we see LESS production from these guys next year, and not more. I don't think we will, but I can't see the future. Too many variables to consider here to just say "One more year means the young guys will automatically be better." Reality doesn't work that way in all cases

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07-10-2013, 10:51 AM
  #219
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Originally Posted by DousedInOil View Post
Eakins has played 78 games while Gordon has played 486. He is better defensively and on the dot. But I guess to each his own.
Eakins has much more offense than Gordon and definitely a lot more potential at this point. Gordon is as good as he is going to get. Eakins will be a solid 2nd line two-way center next year. Think younger TJ Oshie

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07-10-2013, 10:52 AM
  #220
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Originally Posted by The Last Dynasty View Post
Stafford is another guy that management was hot to trot on back at the '04 draft and they've been coveting him ever since, for some reason

he's not overly physical despite his size and Hemsky is probably a better player at this point

no thanks to Stafford
Have they really? Seems to me it's more the Matheson's of the world that kept bringing it up along with outsiders who still think there is a family connection.

Stafford might end up here, but it's more because he would be a cheap option.

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07-10-2013, 10:53 AM
  #221
Karsa Orlong
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Originally Posted by Petro Points View Post
41 pts in 38 GP last year.. A bigger LW who is somehow available and wont cost us an arm and a leg..

The guy is good enough to bump Hall down to 2nd line. If he is available, MacT should be all over it.
Vanek is great, and i would actually love to see him on a line with RNH and Eberle.

That being said, there is no way he replaces Hall. Vanek is incredibly sheltered in Buffalo, facing like the 9th-10th toughest comp among forwards, so basically always against bottom 6 forwards and bottom 4 D. He also would be the least physical guy in our top 6.

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07-10-2013, 10:53 AM
  #222
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I was just thinking, in terms of bottom 6 forwards... Look at the Chicago's and Detroits in the NHL. Detroit's 3rd and 4th lines are generally made up of players developed in their system (Helm, Nyquist, Miller, Emmerton). Chicago's 3rd and 4th lines (Shaw, Saad, Bickell, Bolland, etc.) were all developed in their system as well.
Good points. Problem is Bickell and Bolland were drafted in 2004 and we're looking at guys like Pitlick and Hamilton as busts when they were drafted 6 years later. Not all good players come out of the draft ready to step into the NHL.

I really think third and fouth line players are the least of our problems. Guys who produce on those lines are able to do so when the top lines are controlling play. Look at Fraser in LA, was an excellent 4th line center with them while winning a cup but when he was here people complained he was useless. Guess what, he was the same player.

I think coaching can make a huge difference. It did for Chicago and Pittsburgh when they turned things around. Of course it's dependant on getting the right coach for the players you have. We dont have much size or grit in the top two lines which could be a problem but the right coach can work around that, ideally we'd have a bigger center as one of our top two guys. A gritty LW/C to take that second line spot would be huge, hopefully he can take draws even if he plays the wing.

As for trading away first round picks. I'm all for it if you are getting a good player back but who are you going to get? I dont do it for one year of Vanek, I dont think he adds much grit just more of what we already have. Maybe at the deadline if we're challenging for a playoff spot but right now that's a long shot.

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07-10-2013, 10:55 AM
  #223
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Originally Posted by CupofOil View Post
The Oilers have one of the most unbalanced rosters in the league. The one strength of their team is skill, everything else is lacking.
Too soft, weak bottom 6, very few 2 way and physical players, a bunch of #3-#6 Dmen, not enough puckmovers on the blueline along with shaky goaltending.
What the Oilers do have is highly skilled wingers, a potential #1C and potential on the blueline with Schultz, Petry and eventually Klefbom. It's all question marks at this point.
I completely agree. Last year, I began following the team a little closer (I'm a Jets fan too) and they are very soft. I thought bringing in Eager and a tougher 4th line would help but it went sour when the coach continued to use his skill players and keeping toughness on the bench. Thank goodness he's gone.

That being said, I think there were SIGNIFICANT upgrades we'll see this year.

Adding a cheap backup goaltender is brilliant. Wait to see what Dubnyk can do with a better D and a better set of forwards. If he's a bust, I could see macT moving pieces to get a new starter next year.

Adding Ference on D will help immediately. I could see Smid playing a little tougher in the corners. Schultz will have a year under his belt. I'd really like to see Nurse in the mix sometime later in the year. Otherwise, the D got better. I do hope to see Coburn come over from the Flyers. That would solidify the D-core for the next decade or so.

I am still very concerned with the forward lines. There is tremendous skill everywhere but a lack of toughness. Resigning Jones was good but the Oil need to get bigger and tougher. I can say Antro is a joke (as a Jets fan) and reminds me of Penner (a Wpg boy like me) but plays small and inconsistent. The Oil need character players who can hit and fight when needed. Hall should NEVER fight again. EVER! Those big guys could open the ice up for the skilled players. Not sure who is available but Vanek, etc. are not the answers. The Oil need to play a better 2way game to get to the playoffs (which I think got much closer).

Hemsky needs to go and I'd really like to see Paarjavi moved because he simply isn't getting the ice time he needs. Moving these guys for Coburn helps both the Flyers and Oilers. But macT seems adamant that the Flyers include someone else. A gamble but he's got lots of cards to play.

I like what they've done this summer. Fans shouldn't panic. This team will be a .500 hockey team this year. Making the playoffs is getting more difficult but they are close but they need more toughness. I

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07-10-2013, 10:58 AM
  #224
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To me, Stafford makes More sense, if the team is going to toss an offer sheet the way of Kyle Clifford. Clifford is young and it would probably be bad to sign him and then just thrust into a situation that he may need to "grow" into. So you bring Stafford as a vet to help support the growth and transition, plus the Oilers overall depth gets better.

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07-10-2013, 11:00 AM
  #225
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Originally Posted by doulos View Post
The reality is the Oilers made a lateral move at 3C, upgraded D slightly, and MAYBE the backup goaltender position slightly.


I think the biggest thing is a changing of the defense stylistically. MacT has talked about it every time he's asked, he doesn't want the big immobile can't pass worth a damn defensive d-men, he wants guys who can move the puck up to the forwards and I think he's gone about adding that. It was a major problem for the Oilers last year and if this group can move the puck better then it'll help the offense a lot because it will allow the skill to actually be skillful. Remains to be seen how it all works out but the man seems to know what he wants to accomplish.

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