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Trade and Proposals Thread XXXVI: MacT, send more help!

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07-10-2013, 11:01 AM
  #226
Trafalgar Law
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Originally Posted by Petro Points View Post
41 pts in 38 GP last year.. A bigger LW who is somehow available and wont cost us an arm and a leg..

The guy is good enough to bump Hall down to 2nd line. If he is available, MacT should be all over it.
And why exactly do we need to do that?

Vanek is good, but considering how much he's going to cost to resign after next season, I'd much rather acquire a guy like Nick Foglino/Nikolai Kulemin and save that cap space for RNH/Yakupov/Schultz.

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07-10-2013, 11:03 AM
  #227
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Originally Posted by missinthejets View Post
I think the biggest thing is a changing of the defense stylistically. MacT has talked about it every time he's asked, he doesn't want the big immobile can't pass worth a damn defensive d-men, he wants guys who can move the puck up to the forwards and I think he's gone about adding that. It was a major problem for the Oilers last year and if this group can move the puck better then it'll help the offense a lot because it will allow the skill to actually be skillful. Remains to be seen how it all works out but the man seems to know what he wants to accomplish.
I agree that this COULD make a big difference. Coaching is going to be a big X-factor this season. Tough to say how it will actually go though.

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07-10-2013, 11:04 AM
  #228
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Good points. Problem is Bickell and Bolland were drafted in 2004 and we're looking at guys like Pitlick and Hamilton as busts when they were drafted 6 years later. Not all good players come out of the draft ready to step into the NHL.

I really think third and fouth line players are the least of our problems. Guys who produce on those lines are able to do so when the top lines are controlling play. Look at Fraser in LA, was an excellent 4th line center with them while winning a cup but when he was here people complained he was useless. Guess what, he was the same player.

I think coaching can make a huge difference. It did for Chicago and Pittsburgh when they turned things around. Of course it's dependant on getting the right coach for the players you have. We dont have much size or grit in the top two lines which could be a problem but the right coach can work around that, ideally we'd have a bigger center as one of our top two guys. A gritty LW/C to take that second line spot would be huge, hopefully he can take draws even if he plays the wing.

As for trading away first round picks. I'm all for it if you are getting a good player back but who are you going to get? I dont do it for one year of Vanek, I dont think he adds much grit just more of what we already have. Maybe at the deadline if we're challenging for a playoff spot but right now that's a long shot.


Also doesn't hurt when the Saad's and Bickell's of the world can play with Toews/Kane/Hossa.

As for the first I agree. Need someone that is here for more than a year. Maybe there is a package that we could work with LA for Muzzin and Clifford. I don't know.

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07-10-2013, 11:07 AM
  #229
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Originally Posted by Trafalgar Law View Post
And why exactly do we need to do that?

Vanek is good, but considering how much he's going to cost to resign after next season, I'd much rather acquire a guy like Nick Foglino/Nikolai Kulemin and save that cap space for RNH/Yakupov/Schultz.
We could afford Vanek, but then we wouldn't be able to afford another top pairing d man at 5M if Schultz gets 5M+. I don't see Schultz getting that for a few year anyways unless he significantly improves this season. I think 5.5 over 8 years for Vanek would be a good deal for us. He could be our Hossa so to speak.

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07-10-2013, 11:07 AM
  #230
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would prefer Steen over Perron any day (maybe that's also why Perron is rummored to be available). Perron strikes me (saw him couple of times last year) as more of a Mike Ribiero than Brad Marchand. Really not interested in him at this point. Steen, for sure. I don't mind the Penner option. I like Vanek (although would want to know salary requests beyond next year). I like the Clifford suggestion. If we can't get a big established body, why not a young big guy who might grow into the role. Even if we only scores 15goals and 30 points on the second line, I like the idea. Probably best one I've heard without paying through the nose in terms of assets.

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07-10-2013, 11:08 AM
  #231
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Originally Posted by doulos View Post
Players don't improve in a linear fashion. Some players don't improve at all. Some to less of a degree than expected, and some more. Some players get injured. There are so many factors here that just expecting young players to magically be better the next season is a setup for a massive letdown.

Yes, it could happen, and all things being equal, there is a good chance the young guys will be marginally better next season.

However, will Taylor Hall be much better than last year? Tough to say, he was VERY good.

How will Nugent-Hopkins fare after his surgery - lots of questions there.

Is Eberle going to get back to his stupid shooting % of 2 years ago? History would say that the chances are low. However, he could improve in other areas as well.

Is Yakupov going to suffer the mythical sophomore slump or will he be one of the guys who actually improves in Year 2? Time will tell.

So we can see that there is a chance we see LESS production from these guys next year, and not more. I don't think we will, but I can't see the future. Too many variables to consider here to just say "One more year means the young guys will automatically be better." Reality doesn't work that way in all cases
I never said players progress on a linear pattern. I said players in their prime years are generally better than they are before(or after for that matter). And is it really magic to suggest a player will improve as he fully matures? Also, 1st overall forwards have a pretty good track record. I feel comfortable betting on them to produce.

Hall was great last year. But think of how many chances he created that didn't go in. Easily 4 or 5 chances for every goal. Improving that even slightly would be a big jump in scoring for the team.

RNH struggled with a hurt shoulder and in a sophomore year. If he was 100% healthy we might have made the playoffs last season.

Yakupov could struggle as a sophomore, but that shot and his work ethic lead me to think it isn't likely. I wouldn't be surprised if he led the team again in goals next season.

Eberle destroyed the AHL last year and apart from the time he was playing with a broken finger, looked like the 76p Eberle from 2 seasons ago. He can pick a corner like few in the league, and his backhand is easily top 5.

If you feel it is a better bet to assume the kids regress next season, feel free. I just don't agree with you.

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07-10-2013, 11:11 AM
  #232
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The Line up (if we want success)
Hall. Gagner. Yakupov
(1). RNH. Eberle
PRV. Gordon. (2)
(3). (4). Jones
Brown

(5). Petry
Smid Ference
Schultz Schultz
Belov

Needs (my suggestions in brackets)

1- power forward (Hartnell)
2- strong defensive forward (Kelly)
3- goon who can skate (Nolan)
4- tough center (Smith)
5- top pairing dman (Coburn)

Unfortunately, we don't have the assets to make it happen, so we will have to put up with another bad year.

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07-10-2013, 11:12 AM
  #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Petro Points View Post
41 pts in 38 GP last year.. A bigger LW who is somehow available and wont cost us an arm and a leg..

The guy is good enough to bump Hall down to 2nd line. If he is available, MacT should be all over it.
Exactly.

As it stands, Paajarvi is your tentative #2LW. If he's part of a package deal to get a surefire top 6 player like Vanek, it makes complete sense to target him.

MPS + Conditional 1st 2014 for Vanek (turns into a 2nd if he doesn't re-sign). Get this done.

Then I have two routes I'd possibly take.

Sign Peter Mueller to 2 years, $2 mill avg cap hit.

Hall-RNH-Yakupov
Vanek-Gagner-Eberle
Jones-Gordon-Mueller
Smyth-Lander-Eager
Joensuu-Acton-Brown

OR keep Hemsky for the year, and offersheet Clifford, roll with three balanced lines.

Clifford-RNH-Eberle
Vanek-Gagner-Hemsky
Hall-Gordon-Yakupov
Smyth-Lander-Eager
Joensuu-Acton-Brown

Before being chastised for putting Hall and Yakupov on the "third line", note that it's really three balanced lines that would play majority of the game. All 3 get 17-18 minutes a night with the 4th line getting 8 minutes a night. Besides, I'm reluctant to split Hall-Yakupov up, and you could put Smyth in the middle of those two for all I care.

By 2014, Vanek and Hemsky come off the books, giving plenty of space to re-sign RNH, Yak and Schultz and then some for free agency.

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07-10-2013, 11:14 AM
  #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ToeDrag83 View Post
Exactly.

As it stands, Paajarvi is your tentative #2LW. If he's part of a package deal to get a surefire top 6 player like Vanek, it makes complete sense to target him.

MPS + Conditional 1st 2014 for Vanek (turns into a 2nd if he doesn't re-sign). Get this done.

Then I have two routes I'd possibly take.

Sign Peter Mueller to 2 years, $2 mill avg cap hit.

Hall-RNH-Yakupov
Vanek-Gagner-Eberle
Jones-Gordon-Mueller
Smyth-Lander-Eager
Joensuu-Acton-Brown

OR keep Hemsky for the year, and offersheet Clifford, roll with three balanced lines.

Clifford-RNH-Eberle
Vanek-Gagner-Hemsky
Hall-Gordon-Yakupov
Smyth-Lander-Eager
Joensuu-Acton-Brown

Before being chastised for putting Hall and Yakupov on the "third line", note that it's really three balanced lines that would play majority of the game. All 3 get 17-18 minutes a night with the 4th line getting 8 minutes a night. Besides, I'm reluctant to split Hall-Yakupov up, and you could put Smyth in the middle of those two for all I care.

By 2014, Vanek and Hemsky come off the books, giving plenty of space to re-sign RNH, Yak and Schultz and then some for free agency.
I personally think that second line-up's nutss. But, heck, I'd promote Lander and keep Gordon in a purely defensive role.
Unfortunately, I think it would take more to poach Vanek from the Buffalo Sabres.

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07-10-2013, 11:17 AM
  #235
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Originally Posted by s7ark View Post
I never said players progress on a linear pattern. I said players in their prime years are generally better than they are before(or after for that matter). And is it really magic to suggest a player will improve as he fully matures? Also, 1st overall forwards have a pretty good track record. I feel comfortable betting on them to produce.

Hall was great last year. But think of how many chances he created that didn't go in. Easily 4 or 5 chances for every goal. Improving that even slightly would be a big jump in scoring for the team.

RNH struggled with a hurt shoulder and in a sophomore year. If he was 100% healthy we might have made the playoffs last season.

Yakupov could struggle as a sophomore, but that shot and his work ethic lead me to think it isn't likely. I wouldn't be surprised if he led the team again in goals next season.

Eberle destroyed the AHL last year and apart from the time he was playing with a broken finger, looked like the 76p Eberle from 2 seasons ago. He can pick a corner like few in the league, and his backhand is easily top 5.

If you feel it is a better bet to assume the kids regress next season, feel free. I just don't agree with you.
I think there is a better chance that they improve than that they don't. I only want to suggest that it's by NO means a guarantee, and since the other upgrades have been nominal, expecting much improvement at this point is setting a person up for potential disappointment.

Now, what I HOPE for is a totally different thing. In my optimistic world the young guys all take steps forwards, the defence is solidified, the coaching clicks, and the Oilers make the playoffs. I just can't expect it based on the current roster.

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07-10-2013, 11:19 AM
  #236
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Originally Posted by nofool6110 View Post
I personally think that second line-up's nutss. But, heck, I'd promote Lander and keep Gordon in a purely defensive role.
Unfortunately, I think it would take more to poach Vanek from the Buffalo Sabres.
Yeah, like I said, don't think it's too big a deal who centers for a Hall-Yakupov winger combo, especially if it helps balance the rest of the lineup.

Throw in Musil to the package? Point is, I think we have the pieces to get a Vanek with 1 year left on his deal.

EDIT: Hall-Arcobello-Yakupov? :shrug:

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07-10-2013, 11:21 AM
  #237
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Originally Posted by doulos View Post
I think there is a better chance that they improve than that they don't. I only want to suggest that it's by NO means a guarantee, and since the other upgrades have been nominal, expecting much improvement at this point is setting a person up for potential disappointment.

Now, what I HOPE for is a totally different thing. In my optimistic world the young guys all take steps forwards, the defence is solidified, the coaching clicks, and the Oilers make the playoffs. I just can't expect it based on the current roster.
I guess I just had issue with you saying it was 'awfully optimistic' to assume the current lineup could be better than last years. I do agree we are far from a guaranteed playoff team as of now.

However, if we could add Vanek + Ehrhoff without losing any core guys, I think we would be pretty close.

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07-10-2013, 11:22 AM
  #238
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Originally Posted by nofool6110 View Post
I personally think that second line-up's nutss. But, heck, I'd promote Lander and keep Gordon in a purely defensive role.
Unfortunately, I think it would take more to poach Vanek from the Buffalo Sabres.
I agree regarding Vanek.

Stars typically go for a first, prospect and B-prospect...at the trade deadline. 2014 1st + 2014 2nd/3rd + Paajarvi + Gernat would probably be the asking price given that we'd be securing for an entire season. Fortunately Vanek isn't at the level of a Kovalchuk, so we'd probably be able to hone down that asking price to be more manageable.

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07-10-2013, 11:22 AM
  #239
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Stafford can play left wing. had a bad season last season but had

21 goals 30 assists in 2011-12 , and 31 goals 21 assists in 62 games the season before that. Id take him depending on the price.

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07-10-2013, 11:23 AM
  #240
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Originally Posted by s7ark View Post
I guess I just had issue with you saying it was 'awfully optimistic' to assume the current lineup could be better than last years. I do agree we are far from a guaranteed playoff team as of now.

However, if we could add Vanek + Ehrhoff without losing any core guys, I think we would be pretty close.
Ehrhoff drool.... Would give up a ton for him. 4M signed long term legit #1 dman although underrated.

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07-10-2013, 11:23 AM
  #241
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Originally Posted by s7ark View Post
I guess I just had issue with you saying it was 'awfully optimistic' to assume the current lineup could be better than last years. I do agree we are far from a guaranteed playoff team as of now.

However, if we could add Vanek + Ehrhoff without losing any core guys, I think we would be pretty close.
For sure, add in a top 6 winger and a top 4 defenseman and now we're talking. Those guys are not on the roster yet though, so I still maintain that it takes some serious optimism to see this team being much better next season.

Optimism is not a bad thing though, I just ran out of my last dose of it last season when it comes to the Oilers. Back down to my rations of Realism now...hahah.

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07-10-2013, 11:27 AM
  #242
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Originally Posted by ToeDrag83 View Post
Yeah, like I said, don't think it's too big a deal who centers for a Hall-Yakupov winger combo, especially if it helps balance the rest of the lineup.

Throw in Musil to the package? Point is, I think we have the pieces to get a Vanek with 1 year left on his deal.

EDIT: Hall-Arcobello-Yakupov? :shrug:
We've got one more problem with the lineup #2: the cap! We'd be over. Hemsky's contract needs to be moved.
Clifford (2) - RNH - Eberle
Vanek (7!) - Gagner (4.5) - Mueller (1.75)
Hall - Lander - Yakupov
Smyth - Gordon - Jones
Jonesuu (Brown had to be moved)

Ference-Petry
Smid-Schultz
Schultz-Belov
Larsen

Dubnyk
LaBaraBara

Tops out at 1.829 in cap space. No room for bonuses.

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07-10-2013, 11:27 AM
  #243
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Ehrhoff drool.... Would give up a ton for him. 4M signed long term legit #1 dman although underrated.
Normally I would assume he was untouchable. But with Miller and Vanek saying they want out, I am sure Ehrhoff is thinking something similar. And Buffalo will be thinking of the future, so good prospects like Marincin/Musil and 1st rounders along with some decent NHL replacements, might get the conversation started.

Quote:
Originally Posted by doulos View Post
For sure, add in a top 6 winger and a top 4 defenseman and now we're talking. Those guys are not on the roster yet though, so I still maintain that it takes some serious optimism to see this team being much better next season.

Optimism is not a bad thing though, I just ran out of my last dose of it last season when it comes to the Oilers. Back down to my rations of Realism now...hahah.
Very understandable. I guess my optimism is holding on by its fingerNAILs

God, that was horrible, I can't believe I am going to post that.

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07-10-2013, 11:33 AM
  #244
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One question I have is why GMs from teams like ours don't go looking far afield for talent more often. We did it with Belov, but you'd think there'd be more hidden gems in Russia that could be valuable for our team. The majority of the most talented Russian players are already in the NHL, but surely there are other impact players and experienced veterans currently in the KHL and perhaps other leagues.

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07-10-2013, 11:49 AM
  #245
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One question I have is why GMs from teams like ours don't go looking far afield for talent more often. We did it with Belov, but you'd think there'd be more hidden gems in Russia that could be valuable for our team. The majority of the most talented Russian players are already in the NHL, but surely there are other impact players and experienced veterans currently in the KHL and perhaps other leagues.
I think part of it is that the Russians that might be gems want to stay in Russia this year because of the Olympics. Think it's to the lower level Russians benefits to play in the KHL in order for them to maximize their Olympic chances.

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07-10-2013, 11:49 AM
  #246
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Originally Posted by nofool6110 View Post
We've got one more problem with the lineup #2: the cap! We'd be over. Hemsky's contract needs to be moved.
Clifford (2) - RNH - Eberle
Vanek (7!) - Gagner (4.5) - Mueller (1.75)
Hall - Lander - Yakupov
Smyth - Gordon - Jones
Jonesuu (Brown had to be moved)

Ference-Petry
Smid-Schultz
Schultz-Belov
Larsen

Dubnyk
LaBaraBara

Tops out at 1.829 in cap space. No room for bonuses.
Good point. I like Mueller there instead of Hemsky.

We have enough LHD to dump Nick Schultz' contract for a pick?

The cap situation would only be a real issue for this season, so a cap dump like that would mitigate the problem.

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07-10-2013, 11:50 AM
  #247
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There's a thread on the main board discussing Peckham's future. Looks like the Habs are a team that could use his size. Wonder why MacT couldn't get anything for his rights? Qualify him and trade him or whatever.

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07-10-2013, 11:53 AM
  #248
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There's a thread on the main board discussing Peckham's future. Looks like the Habs are a team that could use his size. Wonder why MacT couldn't get anything for his rights? Qualify him and trade him or whatever.
It's day 6 of free agency. Highly doubtful they would've given anything, they would've just moved along to the next best.

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07-10-2013, 11:55 AM
  #249
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Originally Posted by Ringo13 View Post
The Line up (if we want success)
Hall. Gagner. Yakupov
(1). RNH. Eberle
PRV. Gordon. (2)
(3). (4). Jones
Brown

(5). Petry
Smid Ference
Schultz Schultz
Belov

Needs (my suggestions in brackets)

1- power forward (Hartnell)
2- strong defensive forward (Kelly)
3- goon who can skate (Nolan)
4- tough center (Smith)
5- top pairing dman (Coburn)

Unfortunately, we don't have the assets to make it happen, so we will have to put up with another bad year.
I think Hemsky should be able to bring back either 2 or 4, and the other for picks or a d prospect. By biggest worry is that MacT isn't even trying for these two.

3 isn't all that important, being a 4th liner and there are a bunch of guys already under contract who could fill the spot even if they're less than ideal.

1 is a tough piece to get, but one that I'm confident MacT is at least working on. In Edmonton's favour is that he doesn't have to be young, he doesn't have to be a long term piece, he doesn't have to be on a discount contract and he doesn't even really need to have solid top 6 production. He just needs to be big and gritty and make room for everyone else.

I think 5 is a luxury we'll have to live without this season. Hopefuly over the next few seasons this player emerges internally, because it's going to cost one of the kids+ to try and pry one away from another team.

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07-10-2013, 11:56 AM
  #250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ToeDrag83 View Post
Exactly.

As it stands, Paajarvi is your tentative #2LW. If he's part of a package deal to get a surefire top 6 player like Vanek, it makes complete sense to target him.

MPS + Conditional 1st 2014 for Vanek (turns into a 2nd if he doesn't re-sign). Get this done.

Then I have two routes I'd possibly take.

Sign Peter Mueller to 2 years, $2 mill avg cap hit.

Hall-RNH-Yakupov
Vanek-Gagner-Eberle
Jones-Gordon-Mueller
Smyth-Lander-Eager
Joensuu-Acton-Brown

OR keep Hemsky for the year, and offersheet Clifford, roll with three balanced lines.

Clifford-RNH-Eberle
Vanek-Gagner-Hemsky
Hall-Gordon-Yakupov
Smyth-Lander-Eager
Joensuu-Acton-Brown

Before being chastised for putting Hall and Yakupov on the "third line", note that it's really three balanced lines that would play majority of the game. All 3 get 17-18 minutes a night with the 4th line getting 8 minutes a night. Besides, I'm reluctant to split Hall-Yakupov up, and you could put Smyth in the middle of those two for all I care.

By 2014, Vanek and Hemsky come off the books, giving plenty of space to re-sign RNH, Yak and Schultz and then some for free agency.
Line up #2 is a no go, Hall who is probably our best player is playing 3rd line minutes with Gordon ?

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